WoW is no longer an MMORPG, but an MO (massively online game) - PvE perspective

[DieFichte]

You guys forget, WoW is multiplayer RPG, you don't just play for yourself. With that there is a definition out there for roleplaying games that predates computers, but it does play a role in WoW when interacting with other players (which makes WoW very different from singleplayer RPGs)

Very true. But those alternatives are a lot more appealing than meaningful cooperation in premade groups and are the de facto path of least resistance, which most players will take. My argument boils down to the fact that in a game classified as an MMORPG you can pretty much reap the same benefits if you play solo as if you play with your friends.

Does it really matter what people do in a game, isn't the genre definition about what you can do in a game? When you play Skyrim, do you go straight with the main quest, smack alduin in the face and be done with the game?

[Raiju]

Grinding really isn't an RPG aspect. Just because FFVII did it doesn't mean it is really relevant to the mechanics (although it is easy filler)
Inventory management isn't really much to do with RPG's, lots of game genres have used it for decades
WoW is slowly abolishing any form of talent system, really
rewards is also not rpg related, just game related. It's how most games function (Do X, get reward)

@Callei Bioware has been repeatedly criticized for it's lackluster endings. The games throughout are very much RPG's though.

[Hubbl3]

But killing people in Skyrim still doesn't affect the story at all, because you can only kill people that the game allows you to. And even if you decide to be the most evil person in Skyrim, you still save the world from Alduin.

Skyrim offers way to much freedom to the point were it becomes meaningless. I am the Archmage, the Listener and the Leader of the Thieves Guild, The Chief of the Companions. Doing Stuff for all the Deadra Princes and everything. None of my choices has any conseqnuences that effect the game's story at all or even the world or how other people see my character in game. And I'm also a jack of all trades. I can cast world destroying spells and sneak with full plate armor while sniping people from 100m with my bow or killing them with my warhammer. All with the same character in the same playthrough. :<

[Deleted]

skyrim is very sandboxy, you there's no real obligation to do the main story, you pick and choose the stories you do and this (the important bit) affects how npc's react to you in the world. Your role has an affect within the game.

It doesn't have that much of an impact on the npcs around you. Some npcs might mention something about the change, but that's it, there's still no real impact. And while you can decide not to do the main story, it's still an important part of the game, but still nothing changes much even after you save the world from Alduin, while that should have the biggest impact on npcs.

[Deleted]

I am playing as a virtual character in a game that tells a story, which means it's roleplaying. I meet other players in the game, which means it's a multiplayer game.

You know, I remember playing some virtual characters in games that told a story as well... when Counter-Strike had a campaign. Yea, Counter-Strike told a story and I was playing a character in it, so, by your logic, Counter-Strike was an RPG. Am I correct?

I also meet other players in Diablo 3. I admit, they disappear shortly after and most times they don't offer much help or anything... so I guess, by your logic, again, Diablo 3 is an MMO. Am I correct?

The fact that a game tells a story does not make it an RPG.
The fact that a game lets you meet other players does not make it an MMO.

An RPG is made by some factors that make the story more realistic, by allowing you to improve your character and make it as unique as possible compared to the rest. As stated in the OP, this is not so much the case anymore, in fact the most major feature implemented that helps RPG is transmog, which is funny if you think about it.

A MMO game is not simply a multiplayer game. Dota 2 is a multiplayer game for example, you meet people, you play with them and poof, they're gone. Except those battles, you're not given the chance to tackle bigger monsters or whatever, you just play your game and you're off. Same way, in WoW, you get in LFD/LFR, you play your raid and you're off, you don't really make friends as, due to cross-realm stuff it's hard and people don't really bother anymore, since there's no group quests you don't seek out other players to play with you, since everything that is done by a group is done in a queue you don't have to seek out other players, or play with other players. In fact, most people do not. They just play WoW as a multiplayer game, where you jump in the queue, play a raid and they're off. That removes the MMO aspect from the game, as all the people are in SW and ORG and the world is deserted, making it not so massivily anymore, SW and ORG are like a queue chat zone...

[Deleted]

Skyrim offers way to much freedom to the point were it becomes meaningless. I am the Archmage, the Listener and the Leader of the Thieves Guild, The Chief of the Companions. Doing Stuff for all the Deadra Princes and everything. None of my choices has any conseqnuences that effect the game's story at all or even the world or how other people see my character in game. And I'm also a jack of all trades. I can cast world destroying spells and sneak with full plate armor while sniping people from 100m with my bow or killing them with my warhammer. All with the same character in the same playthrough. :<

Exactly, but it's still considered an RPG, and a highly praised one too. So WoW isn't any less of an RPG just because your actions don't have much impact on the story and the world around you.

[DieFichte]

Exactly, but it's still considered an RPG, and a highly praised one too. So WoW isn't any less of an RPG just because your actions don't have much impact on the story and the world around you.

Well they haven an impact on your character, and characters "connected" to yours, played by other people.

[Wildtree]

Hey guys!

I'd just like to point out a few reasons why I believe World of Warcraft is no longer a multiplayer and no longer a role playing game.

let's see...

1. Loss of multiplayer:
a) A paucity of reasons to selectively group up with other players:
- LFD offers a path of least resistance towards good gear (VPs), is not challenging and requires almost no interaction between players (it is effectively a solo run with 4 "NPCs").
- LFR enables experiencing endgame content (which is ok), while also not necessitating player interaction and not being challenging whatsoever.
- Removal of group quests - questing is too easy and again offers virtually no incentive to seek out other players to group with which hampers any chance of developing new friendships.

Somehow, all I read is criticism towards difficulty, and not how many people the game has..
Plus you are wrong with the claim how there is no difficulty and interaction required at all. Normal and Heroic Mode beg to differ, and the stats released here recently, as well as the stats over at Wowprogress vehemently disagree with your assumptions.

b) Your role in a group has lost its prominence:
- This mostly applies to LFR and LFG because of the lack of inherent difficulty - it can be beaten even if the group members for the most part don't do their job.
- If someone under performs, the tendency is to kick him/her, rather than to offer advice.

There you are onto something. This is a wide spread disease nowadays...

2. Loss of role playing due to an extreme reduction in player individuality:

The RP factor of WOW has not moved anywhere since the games existence. Not increased, not diminished. There is a reason why there's only but a handful of RP servers. A number that was never higher nor smaller. And the population of these realms can be said to be "dead".. But it isn't dead because of RP died... The realms are dead because the've never been pure RP realms, and the players from either PVP or PVE pure aspects simply left these servers.

- Epic & legendary gear can be acquired by anybody which is good, but without much effort which is not good.

Now you are not only silly, but judgmental. I do not know where you find the high ground to determine what is to be called effort or not. But the legendary cloak is definitely an item that is not just a give away. It requires to invest a LOT of time and patience. At least equal to the time investment for legendary raid drops.
And the claim that they are for everyone, I call that an exaggerated myth..
Heaps of players that truly are not that good are unable to overcome the scenario hurdles. They struggle at the thunder forge. And more struggle at the celestial challenge.

- Items obtained from the 3 difficulty levels are differentiated by minor color alterations, the actual stat changes are not that profound.

They are actually very profound. Exponential stat scaling kicks in at endgame level, and 13 pts ilevel more have a huge impact on a toons performance abilities.
The visual aspect of the gear is generally extremely overrated. Especially since transmog is in the game, it became less important.

- A myriad of (in my opinion) great looking mounts that could be acquired in game by putting in some serious effort and feeling rewarded, but are instead available to anyone through the online store. And, in fact, many do purchase these mounts and this results in a plethora of people having the same looking mount and that effectively negates the reason for buying the mount in the first place - to stand out.

First of all it isn't a myriad of mounts and pets... Secondly you are only assuming here.. People buying the store products to stand out is a gutsy assumption. This may be the case on the greater picture. Buying them to complete the collection, but I am very sure how people are a lot more intelligent as you make them out to be.
You don't think someone goes to Walmart and buys clothes there, to stand out, do you? That's the same thing essentially.. Items that are sold in the Blizzard store are meant to be bought by millions of people. They are meant to be a mass product, not a special snowflake limited to few.

- Allowing anyone to simply purchase 310% flying speed. Beforehand this was a nice reward for those who went just that one step further and when you saw someone with such a mount, you were in awe and wanted one too!

Welcome to WOW, welcome to Earth, I am tempted to say here now..
Times change, things change, and they do so all the time... That's true for the game since day 1, and that's but a reflection of our existence as a whole..
If you have a problem with that, I wonder why you enjoy a computer at all..... It's for changes why we have them. Otherwise we'd still sit in caves..
Just think about it for a moment here... One may not be fond of a certain change, but ultimately it's nothing but progressing.

- Cross-realm grouping - prior to this system being implemented, you could build up a good reputation on your server as either a good tank, dps or healer. Now you're just another "guy" in the group.

There is truth to it. The individual server community as an isolated entity has suffered to the point of utter destruction.

- The ability to obtain titles associated with killing hard raid bosses persists into future expansions, effectively rendering these titles worthless because anyone can later come back, 10 levels stronger and steamroll through the content. I cite as my example The Astral Walker and Dragonslayer, each obtained by beating a very difficult boss at that level. Now they can be acquired by anybody. Remember the Champion of the Naaru and Hand of A'dal? They were made unavailable with the launch of WOTLK, the reason being and I quote Eyonix "to prevent easy access to the titles".

This is true, and Blizzard realized how this move was a mistake.
You have to understand that the game is an object in motion. Unlike a sports race irl, where everyone starts running when the start shot gets fired, in WOW this race has an open start point. Some people start it at the beginning of an expansion or patch, some people join in late.
How would you feel when you are new to the game, you worked your way through the content, you are kinda halfway through the progression line, and all of a sudden they remove the finishing line from you, by calling the race off. Wouldn't you be pissed? First they tell you how great of a game WOW is, and you should play. You do so, and then they pull the reward from underneath your feet....
While I understand where you are coming from.. But it's a game for all, and not just for you or me or individuals..

- Removal of keyrings - another reason less to seek out players on your own realm.

- Nerfing hard to obtain titles, for example The Insane. Beforehand it was really hard to level up DMF rep, now it can be done just by doing easy daily quests and it has even had 1 criterium flat out removed.

- Removal of world drop or raid drop profession recipes - every alchemist, for example, can make the same stuff as the other. This has a few exceptions, but in the form of vanity items, such as the Sandstone drake. This devalues professions and potentially hurts the economy of the game.

- Bringing back items that ceased to become available. For example the Clockwork Rocket Bot or the Amani Warbear. Also this year you could just purchase previous years' Winter Vail gifts. Yes, these are small things, but they're stacking up.

- Legendaries for all.

Another collection of complaints how to you the game just lost the ability for you to feel like a special snowflake.
I suggest to focus on such achievements outside the game IRL. Those achievements cannot be taken from you ever again. Those are the ones that count.
In a video game, any achievement, what ever it is.. It's a factual useless gimmick. Start taking the game for what it is, a game...

.....in my opinion.

And that was mine....
And mine is how your catalog of reasons has nothing to do with whether WoW is an MMORPG or not.

[Raiju]

Exactly, but it's still considered an RPG, and a highly praised one too. So WoW isn't any less of an RPG just because your actions don't have any on the story and the world around you.

fixed that for you.

It's worth mentioning I played games like shadow the hedgehog. I know what happens when designers try to make choices too important (and then tack an ending on afterwards wut), it ends up very shallow.

Good RPG's have never been about worldshattering changes, but well implemented ones.

[Zula95]

I am playing as a virtual character in a game that tells a story, which means it's roleplaying. I meet other players in the game, which means it's a multiplayer game.

Although WoW is an mmorpg, that is incorrect for defining them. By that definition diablo 3 would be one also.

[Deleted]

Well they haven an impact on your character, and characters "connected" to yours, played by other people.

I know, that's why I believe WoW is still an RPG. It still has almost as many RPG elements as it did on launch.

[DieFichte]

Although WoW is an mmorpg, that is incorrect for defining them. By that definition diablo 3 would be one also.

Well I guess you can roleplay in diablo 3. The game has an internal chat system, it lack the /random option, so you kinda have to rely on 3rd party or analog solutions, but I guess the possibilies are there, even if they are only limited to 4 people. I guess WoW is way a better game for roleplay than diablo.

I know, that's why I believe WoW is still an RPG. It still has almost as many RPG elements as it did on launch.

Well, the world is bigger, there are more "fancy" options for dressing, you have more stories to play around with. So yeah, it's basically the same.

[Drunter]

Stopped reading after astral walker and dragonslayer titles were hard. Casual perspective attempting to be hardcore, 11/10 trolling

[Deleted]

fixed that for you.

It's worth mentioning I played games like shadow the hedgehog. I know what happens when designers try to make choices too important (and then tack an ending on afterwards wut), it ends up very shallow.

Good RPG's have never been about worldshattering changes, but well implemented ones.

So which games would you consider good RPGs? I agree they're not about that, but what I'm trying to say is that a lot of RPGs don't have well implemented or important changes, yet they're still considered RPGs. I also should have made my point clearer in the first place: I don't think WoW is a good RPG, but it's still an RPG, despite the disagreement of some people here.

[Raiju]

So which games would you consider good RPGs? I agree they're not about that, but what I'm trying to say is that a lot of RPGs don't have well implemented or important changes, yet they're still considered RPGs. I also should have made my point clearer in the first place: I don't think WoW is a good RPG, but it's still an RPG, despite the disagreement of some people here.

It's a few pages back now as this thread is moving fast, but I said RPG's are a bit of a grey area right now due to the constant moving goal posts of the industry. I covered there that I can understand people may consider it an RPG (legitimately), I personally feel it is too vague of an adventure game for that these days and what little argument it had for being called an RPG is gone. It's certainly an MMO though.

[Santoryu]

Somehow, all I read is criticism towards difficulty, and not how many people the game has..
Plus you are wrong with the claim how there is no difficulty and interaction required at all. Normal and Heroic Mode beg to differ, and the stats released here recently, as well as the stats over at Wowprogress vehemently disagree with your assumptions.

Of course normal and heroic require interaction! I'm saying LFG and LFR should, too, because that would make them more enjoyable!

Heaps of players that truly are not that good are unable to overcome the scenario hurdles. They struggle at the thunder forge. And more struggle at the celestial challenge.

Pretty sure that'll be nerfed soon.

Now you are not only silly, but judgmental. I do not know where you find the high ground to determine what is to be called effort or not. But the legendary cloak is definitely an item that is not just a give away. It requires to invest a LOT of time and patience. At least equal to the time investment for legendary raid drops.

I'd be fine with it if you could tell who got the cloak from LFR and who got it from heroic raiding.

First of all it isn't a myriad of mounts and pets... Secondly you are only assuming here.. People buying the store products to stand out is a gutsy assumption. This may be the case on the greater picture. Buying them to complete the collection, but I am very sure how people are a lot more intelligent as you make them out to be.
You don't think someone goes to Walmart and buys clothes there, to stand out, do you? That's the same thing essentially.. Items that are sold in the Blizzard store are meant to be bought by millions of people. They are meant to be a mass product, not a special snowflake limited to few.

Mounts are nothing but spells that increase your moving speed. If what you're saying was true, people would get just the horse mount from the vendor and be done with it. But that's far from the case. People resort to grinds and quests and yes, the store, because they want a mount that is different from what others have.

How would you feel when you are new to the game, you worked your way through the content, you are kinda halfway through the progression line, and all of a sudden they remove the finishing line from you, by calling the race off. Wouldn't you be pissed? First they tell you how great of a game WOW is, and you should play. You do so, and then they pull the reward from underneath your feet....

To that I can only say...tough. I wasn't able to get Celestial Defender, Herald of the Titans, Hand of A'dal or Champion of the Naaru and I'm perfectly fine with that. Also, those who had accepted the final quests for the latter two titles were able to obtain them post 3.0.2, so their reward was not yanked away from them.

Another collection of complaints how to you the game just lost the ability for you to feel like a special snowflake.

Or if not that, at least making my time spent in game worth while.

Stopped reading after astral walker and dragonslayer titles were hard. Casual perspective attempting to be hardcore, 11/10 trolling

You found killing Algalon and Sinestra level appropriate easy?

[DieFichte]

Or if not that, at least making my time spent in game worth while.

If you feel your time is not spent worth while, why do you spend it at all?

[Hubbl3]

You found killing Algalon and Sinestra level appropriate easy?

Level appropriate, yes. With the right itemlevel? Not that hard either. Sinestra 10 man was hard, but in 25 man we rolled through there 1 day after we killed cho'gall HC.

[Santoryu]

If you feel your time is not spent worth while, why do you spend it at all?

I don't. I stopped playing a while ago.

Level appropriate, yes. With the right itemlevel? Not that hard either. Sinestra 10 man was hard, but in 25 man we rolled through there 1 day after we killed cho'gall HC.

I suppose for those who traditionally do mostly heroic content it wasn't that hard, but the percentage of people who had killed her in Cataclysm was precipitously low.

[Deleted]

What I would count as a lacking RPG element though is how we can't choose to be a different faction than the one our race belongs to and how we are sometimes forced to hate the opposite faction for no reason. I know this is WARcraft, but that doesn't mean we should all be warmongers.