Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Dvaldin]

But you can only have so many caves, or quests like that. Its also not removed for the whole expansion as far as I know. Just on Draenor.

I included 'zones' in that.

The whole 'you can still fly, just not in Draenor' argument is so way-out-there, I'm not even going to address it other than this, as it completely misses the whole point. The arguments are not based on flying in other places. The expansion is Warlords of Draenor. No where has it been stated it will be officially gone in Draenor throughout the entire expansion. It's a possibility, but there's been no official statement that's the case.

However, it's pointless though to take a stance for or against flying right now. Until there's a slew of people leveled up to 100 and it's seen what's in mind for end-game, no one knows how it plays out. My bet is that once people who don't pay attention regularly to game news realize it's not available, they'll be hammering for it.

If Bliz does a competent job of making world game-play exceptional at end-game without flying, then not being able to fly will work. If it's too much of a burden to get to and accomplish end-game objectives, then people won't do them and will either stop playing or sit in city ques. I'll even go out on a limb and say there's not a whole lot of people who want to go sight-seeing after a year in an expansion rolls by. Sure, there may be people who still do that today, but I bet most fly to do those destinations.

[Osmeric]

Flying is not the problem here. Lack of creativity and reducing development costs is though.

I thought the "lower cost" argument had already been debunked dozens of times.

- - - Updated - - -

Its just that the journey to the raid instance takes about 5x as long once your group has formed.

Which is dishonest BS, since you are ignoring their comments about flightpoints.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

While that is true, I'd like to add something.

People who play this game, and have for years view it differently than those who buy a game and play it for 8 months and then quit. Many of the people I see that really don't like this are people that have been around for a very long time. I have been here since January of 05, just a couple of months after launch. I spent thousands of dollars on this game.

When a person who continually takes 9 months off or a year off leaves, they can be replaced by another. When a person who has been subbed for 8 years, or the past 4 years continually leaves, it's a different story.

This of course is anecdotal, there are certainly people who have been here just as long as me that are in favor of this. However, I don't believe it is anecdotal that it is much more difficult to replace long term subscribers than short term ones.

Long term subscriber here. I see your false threat, but yeah, I am okay with the change and have been subbed since 05 as well. August I think.

[Osmeric]

I'd wager it falls more in line with there are 2 factions here and while both have merits blizzard fell to one side leaving the other to go "F" themselves.

No, it's Blizzard staring one side in the eyes and saying "we've heard this kind of talk before. It's almost entirely hot air. You're not going to quit." And then darkly smiling at you.

[quras]

No, it's Blizzard staring one side in the eyes and saying "we've heard this kind of talk before. It's almost entirely hot air. You're not going to quit." And then darkly smiling at you.

Then clearly their power of perception has failed them. Kinda like their ability to design/development and create content in a timely manner.

[Infernix]

No, it's Blizzard staring one side in the eyes and saying "we've heard this kind of talk before. It's almost entirely hot air. You're not going to quit." And then darkly smiling at you.

Nearly 5 million people gave their smug faces the finger and found other games to play. 200k of them in the last few months.

I wonder how many more will give up and go play other games before blizzard stops listening to the 'hardcore' crowd again. Two million? Three?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I never said I wanted flying just "for farming". Nor did I say 'ITS MY GAME!"
You keep putting words in my mouth I didn't say to make a point. This is not a valid method for of debate, it's pure fail.

I didn't state you only like it for farming, but its one of the reasons you have stated. Its a bad reason. You also state "Don't tell me how to play" which equates to "its my game."

[Nayaga]

I thought the "lower cost" argument had already been debunked dozens of times.
.

Was this thought debunked? If we consume content slower, less content needs to be created. Less content created means lower costs. I'm not talking about 2d vs 3d design and buildings with no roofs.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Nearly 5 million people gave their smug faces the finger and found other games to play. 200k of them in the last few months.

I wonder how many more will give up and go play other games before blizzard stops listening to the 'hardcore' crowd again. Two million? Three?

Sources on no flying on Draenor because the hardcores want it? Or is that jusst one of your "hunches?"

[Sweetpeaz]

The Bluetracker does not show the threads deleted without blue comment. Many of them are decent debates with a message Blizzard doesn't want out there, poof they are gone.

There is no doubt that the don't want this to be out to the masses, otherwise it wouldn't have been leaked in an interview. There is genuine concern that if the opinions of people are changed prior to release of content, that it will predispose them to a given outcome.

They are banking that people don't know, will fall in love with the content and not care about flight. The more people know about this, the worse it is for them.

[Nayaga]

I didn't state you only like it for farming, but its one of the reasons you have stated. Its a bad reason. You also state "Don't tell me how to play" which equates to "its my game."

No "don't tell me how to play the game" does not equate to "it's my game" you are jumping the a conclusion you feel you can negate.

You can play the game however you want, you can do PvP and Pet Battles all you want. I'm not interested in those things, but I will not demand you stop doing it. I NEVER said "it's my game", each of us can enjoy the aspect of the game we like.

STOP trying to put words in my mouth to prove your point. You are failing.

[Sweetpeaz]

They need to get an accountant to talk to the developers. Removing hugely popular features, while making the developers happy, will lose them subs. But hey, that doesn't matter I guess. At least not yet.

This is a common problem in technology circles. The tech developers/sys admins/production support people start making changes to the product to make their life easier to the detriment of the clients. I've seen it so many times in my work. Most of the time they don't even realize they are doing it, and are surprised when people start to complain about the changes they made for their sake and not the customers.

Accounts are the problem here. They view the cost of development divided by the number of people that see it and think 'wow...that's horrible' we need more people to see it. It is what caused the easily consumed content we've had since WotLK. Accountants need to look at the bottom line and shut up!!

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

No "don't tell me how to play the game" does not equate to "it's my game" you are jumping the a conclusion you feel you can negate.

You can play the game however you want, you can do PvP and Pet Battles all you want. I'm not interested in those things, but I will not demand you stop doing it. I NEVER said "it's my game", each of us can enjoy the aspect of the game we like.

Then, whats the difference really? Serious question.

Either way I meant it the same. Its your experience and you think you should be able to do whatever without me impeding it .. well AGAIN, this wasn't my choice, Blizzard didn't say "Hey Lemonparty, if you could change ONE thing! what would it be?!"... so yeah, stop telling me to stop telling you how to play. I'm not. I'm just debating what I think is an okay choice by Blizzard.

[quras]

Sources on no flying on Draenor because the hardcores want it? Or is that jusst one of your "hunches?"

Given that 5 + million have actually left the game and not returned does it matter what type of gamer they are?

There is no doubt that the don't want this to be out to the masses, otherwise it wouldn't have been leaked in an interview. There is genuine concern that if the opinions of people are changed prior to release of content, that it will predispose them to a given outcome.

They are banking that people don't know, will fall in love with the content and not care about flight. The more people know about this, the worse it is for them.

Agreed. It is in their best interest and hope that gamers will buy the game, be blindsided with no flying as they have done for every expansions wow has ever had but be hooked enough to not leave after the first month. $50 in hand and a disgruntled customer is better than $0 and a disgruntled customer.

[Sweetpeaz]

Part of Blizz's opinion to remove flying, as according to a former blue post, is that flight in-game reduces the challenge of some objectives when you can just swoop in, kill baddie, and swoop out.

One way they have dealt with that is to put some objectives indoors where you can't fly.

If they're concerned about outdoors, I don't understand why they couldn't take away the ability to fly when a player picks up certain quests that they want to keep tactically challenging. Maybe start a debuff called "Weighted" or something when you have certain quests or are in certain zones.

I believe there are other options available than simply removing it altogether throughout the life of the expansion.

Whatever, the case, until we're playing and actually playing our opinions are all speculation and it appears like Bliz has the same frame of mind - taking a wait-and-see approach rather than just blithely stating specifics for certain measures.

Which is BS. At max level another game opens up. It is entirely subjective as to the decision whether one person does that content or not. While leveling...not so much, at max level, this logic makes no sense.

[Osmeric]

Accounts are the problem here. They view the cost of development divided by the number of people that see it and think 'wow...that's horrible' we need more people to see it. It is what caused the easily consumed content we've had since WotLK. Accountants need to look at the bottom line and shut up!!

Accountants look at return on investment and tell management. Management then asks the devs "if the ROI on raid content is so low, why are we including it at all?" And then the devs look for ways to increase the ROI.

[Nayaga]

Then, whats the difference really? Serious question.

Either way I meant it the same. Its your experience and you think you should be able to do whatever without me impeding it .. well AGAIN, this wasn't my choice, Blizzard didn't say "Hey Lemonparty, if you could change ONE thing! what would it be?!"... so yeah, stop telling me to stop telling you how to play. I'm not. I'm just debating what I think is an okay choice by Blizzard.

Your official Blizzard Fanboy sunglasses are causing you to have a reading comprehension problem.

[Sweetpeaz]

Accountants look at return on investment and tell management. Management then asks the devs "if the ROI on raid content is so low, why are we including it at all?" And then the devs look for ways to increase the ROI.

Yes, but ROI is done at a macro level. We discuss this all the time in our financials. There is a misconception that everything has to have a positive ROI and that's not the case.

We had an initiative a few years ago that all investments had to have positive ROI within 18 months, that really stifles risk taking and development. It was scrapped after people figured out that somethings can be cost negative if they keep people happy.

You are right though, they were asking that exact question. What they should have realized is that they were already in uncharted water with a billion a year video game. Old formulas need to be thrown out.

[Dvaldin]

Which is BS. At max level another game opens up. It is entirely subjective as to the decision whether one person does that content or not. While leveling...not so much, at max level, this logic makes no sense.

You're speaking of their decision to remove flying, I presume.

[Doomchicken]

Sounds about right.

Might as well make you waste your time on worthless garbage then actually letting you get to the parts of the game that are fun and entertaining.

Are you one of those people that like standing in line at the theme park VS actually riding the rides?

No disrespect, but I have no god damn idea what you're talking about and what your point is.

There's going to be no flying while leveling. like BC, like MOP, like most of Wrath. So, nothing is changing there. End level, my "ride" is raiding. No flying is not going to stop me from raiding. It never has, and it never will.