Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[Barkloud]

At least the gating is a legitimate thing to rally against. But to attribute no flying with that issue is nonsense. Unless you honestly want to believe the couple of people here that grossly exaggerate the increase in travel time.

I think an agreeable increase would be 52%. That means travel will take roughly 100% longer than it used too. If we currently spend 10 minutes an hour traveling that would increase to 20 minutes an hour. That means we will spend 33% of our game time running from place to place.

It also means those of us that mine, herb, etc. are looking at a 100% increase to our gathering. That sucks, surely you can admit that much.

[Noybbs]

It will launch with 10M. It will dip to 9, then 8, then 7, then 6. Then 7.0 will launch and it will jump to 10M. It will dip to 9, then 8, then 7, then 6. That's how it goes. We had flight all through Cata and MoP, and it still followed those patterns. No flying will not magically make it plummet. I know. I used to think it would. But it won't.

What planet do you live on? WoD will launch with 10m? Really? Did I miss something? Did they post how many preorder they have? Seems like crazy numbers to me.

[-Superman-]

You are correct Walter II, each expansion is not smaller than the previous. It appears Vanilla through Wrath had quite a bit of content. It looks like WOW started to dramatically slash their development with Cataclysm. Amazingly they gutted MoP even more than Cataclysm. It now looks like WoD may have less than MoP.

Blizzards problem is not their game, it is the lack of content. If only Blizzard were able to develop content like the F2P's with 1 to 2 million subscribers they would be fine. it is pretty sad that financially struggling mmorpgs are consistently out performing Blizzard in regards to developing new content.

Shoot, I receive 3 emails last week alone from Rift, GW2 and SWTOR asking me to come ack and try new things. That is on top of my Wildstar emails, my ArcheAge emails, My FF16 emails. Everyone is asking for business except for Blizzy.

Vanilla
20 Dungeons
5 Raids
25 five man or larger instances

Burning Crusade
16 Dungeons
8 Raids
24 five man or larger instances

Wrath of the Lich King
16 Dungeons
9 Raids
25 five man or larger instances

Cataclysm
12 Dungeons
6 raids
18 five man or larger instances

Mists of Pandaria
9 Dungeons (3 of the 9 dungeons were actually vanilla dungeons, so we only really had 6 new dungeons
5 Raids
14 five man or larger instance

Given WoD possibly only have 2 raid tiers, possibly no more dungeons and no BG's what so ever, it is no wonder they are removing flight. THey are almost forced to given the lack of incoming content

Of course I am right. I cite facts, I don't just spout shit to sound like a credible source. Blizz doesn't need to beg for business. They are the ONLY sub-based MMO to exceed and maintain 5M users for the past decade. They are shrewd and clever, and know exactly how to get money from people. Even people who HATE their product. Everyone who has complained in this thread has either been in the Beta, PTR, or at the very least watching streams on YouTube. They know people like this game. They may not love every aspect, or every decision, but they know at some point they will still pay to play. Even Nayaga who said "slogging through the game/mobs on the ground is not fun", and who said he would unsub for good if the game was no longer fun... is still playing.

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What planet do you live on? WoD will launch with 10m? Really? Did I miss something? Did they post how many preorder they have? Seems like crazy numbers to me.

Wrath launched with 10M
Cata launched with 10M
MoP launched with 10M

Now there is a new expac promising to cater to hardcores and take out flight.

WoD will launch with 10M or more.

I used historical data to make an educated guess.

[Nayaga]

I think an agreeable increase would be 52%. That means travel will take roughly 100% longer than it used too. If we currently spend 10 minutes an hour traveling that would increase to 20 minutes an hour. That means we will spend 33% of our game time running from place to place.

It also means those of us that mine, herb, etc. are looking at a 100% increase to our gathering. That sucks, surely you can admit that much.

That is the minimum. If you add environmental factors like mountains, lakes, rivers, NPC attacks and PvP, ground travel can become much slower that only twice as slow as flying mounts.

[MatadorMedia]

Mists of Pandaria
9 Dungeons (3 of the 9 dungeons were actually vanilla dungeons, so we only really had 6 new dungeons
5 Raids
14 five man or larger instance

You have to count Scenarios and also Quest Hub content patches, etc. as endgame content. This list up above completely excludes content just to make it seem like there's less to do in more recent expansions.

[Noybbs]

Of course I am right. I cite facts, I don't just spout shit to sound like a credible source. Blizz doesn't need to beg for business. They are the ONLY sub-based MMO to exceed and maintain 5M users for the past decade. They are shrewd and clever, and know exactly how to get money from people. Even people who HATE their product. Everyone who has complained in this thread has either been in the Beta, PTR, or at the very least watching streams on YouTube. They know people like this game. They may not love every aspect, or every decision, but they know at some point they will still pay to play. Even Nayaga who said "slogging through the game/mobs on the ground is not fun", and who said he would unsub for good if the game was no longer fun... is still playing.

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Wrath launched with 10M
Cata launched with 10M
MoP launched with 10M

Now there is a new expac promising to cater to hardcores and take out flight.

WoD will launch with 10M or more.

I used historical data to make an educated guess.

Your numbers are wrong


Burning Crusade = 8.5
Wrath = 11.5
Cataclysm = 12
Mop = 10
Current = 6.8

I think you are making up numbers on the fly.

[-Superman-]

You have to count Scenarios and also Quest Hub content patches, etc. as endgame content. This list up above completely excludes content just to make it seem like there's less to do in more recent expansions.

And that would be why I never trust his info. He gives only what he wants to support his stance, and even then, it is usually skewed.

[MinTDH]

Mists of Pandaria
9 Dungeons (3 of the 9 dungeons were actually vanilla dungeons, so we only really had 6 new dungeons
5 Raids
14 five man or larger instance

You're missing about 16 scenarios in this list. Not including the warlock green fire scenario.

[-Superman-]

Your numbers are wrong
Burning Crusade = 8.5
Wrath = 11.5
Cataclysm = 12
Mop = 10
Current = 6.8

I think you are making up numbers on the fly.

So Wrath opened with MORE then 10M, Cata opened with MORE than 10M, and MoP opened with 10M even. I'll stick with my estimated opening based on historical data.

[Nayaga]

Even Nayaga who said "slogging through the game/mobs on the ground is not fun", and who said he would unsub for good if the game was no longer fun... is still playing.

You seriously need to start to listen. I'm still playing because I still have fun in the game. I'm still having fun in the game because I can avoid thinks I hate, like PvP. Removing flying will just make be avoid max level open world content, not quit the game. Why? Because I can still have fun by avoiding content I find tedious and boring.

[-Superman-]

You seriously need to start to listen. I'm still playing because I still have fun in the game. I'm still having fun in the game because I can avoid thinks I hate, like PvP. Removing flying will just make be avoid max level open world content, not quit the game. Why? Because I can still have fun by avoiding content I find tedious and boring.

So no flying is no longer an inconvenience. You are finding other things to do in the game. Good for you.

[Noybbs]

So Wrath opened with MORE then 10M, Cata opened with MORE than 10M, and MoP opened with 10M even. I'll stick with my estimated opening based on historical data.

Your numbers are bullshit you pulled out of your ass to prove a point. Your estimated opening numbers are worthless.

[Nayaga]

So no flying is no longer an inconvenience. You are finding other things to do in the game. Good for you.

No it's still an inconvenience to me. Stop putting words in my mouth. Being an inconvenience does not mean I will unsub and delete all my characters. I'm not doing other things in the game, I'm doing what I enjoy. Now I have one less thing I enjoy in the game and that is flying.

[-Superman-]

Your numbers are bullshit you pulled out of your ass to prove a point. Your estimated opening numbers are worthless.

My numbers illustrate that historically that Wrath, Cata, and MoP all opened with 10M subs (or more). It is that common sense that allows me to posit that WoD will launch with 10M subs (or more). You're just pissed cause I used logic and estimates, and your little graph only helped to support my statement.

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No it's still an inconvenience to me. Stop putting words in my mouth. Being an inconvenience does not mean I will unsub and delete all my characters.

You're just all over the place. Forget I asked.

[Nayaga]

You're just all over the place. Forget I asked.

I am not all over the place. I have given the same message over and over again and you just don't get it or are trolling me. Your ridiculous posting, is really pissing me off. Get a fucking clue.

It's no wonder you have been banned so many times on multiple forum accounts. I will do my best to ignore you future posts

[MinTDH]

I am not all over the place. I have given the same message over and over again and you just don't get it or are trolling me. Your ridiculous posting, is really pissing me off. Get a fucking clue.

It's no wonder you have been banned so many times on multiple forum accounts. I will do my best to ignore you future posts

Wow, Walter II is doing a great job to piss you off it seems. Keep going.

[-Superman-]

I am not all over the place. I have given the same message over and over again and you just don't get it or are trolling me. Your ridiculous posting, is really pissing me off. Get a fucking clue.

It's no wonder you have been banned so many times on multiple forum accounts. I will do my best to ignore you future posts

First you say Slogging through stuff is no fun.
Then you say you would unsub for good if the game was no longer fun.
Then you say the game is still no fun, but you are willing to work around the no flying.
Then you say you are still pissed about the no flying, and how not flying is no fun.

Not entirely sure it is me who is misleading YOU.

[CheeseSandwich]

Holy shit the conversation I just had with Bash re flying in WoD on twitter.

Keep in mind I will prob miss some things: (B = bashiok, M = me, O = other dude)

B:That's probably not good. Tustin/Loma Ridge/Irvine. pic.twitter.com/VP0yFeJgLb

M: Is that the physical manifestation of anger from people buying the CE DDL WoD for the flying mount, realising they cant fly?

B: You can fly everywhere you can fly.

M: Can I 'swoop down on my enemies' on the WoD DD mount, in Draenor, as is implied as advertised on the WoD prebuy page?

B: I don't see it as implying Draenor myself. You can swoop down on your enemies in places where you can fly.
But anyway, places where you can fly may very well also include Draenor at some point.

M:And I eagerly await that day! Would be nice to see a definitive plan from a multibillion dollar company though.Ball in your court.

B : We're not going to make a decision on something before we know what the best one will be. You actually want us to?

M: Sure, I want you to have a clear idea on where you want you game to go. Back the strength of your conviction. (1)
Show how the game will be better with no flight. Show the max level open world content is better Show how it is better without (2)
flight. Make us want still buy flying mounts off the shop, and be restricted to the ground while playing.

B: Ok done. Beta shows all of these things.

M: It does? From what I see from the beta, max level WoD content is not negatively affected by flight, other than speed of consumption

B: It changes how you approach content and combat in a fundamental way. If you don't agree then that's a different conversation.

M:At max level,is that fundamental choice really such a valid thing?Seeing as we will be engaging that content on the ground (1)
to complete it anyway? No one ever completed a quest hovering 10 yards above it. (2)

B: No they completed it by flying over the gate to a fortress, killing a guy, and running away before other mobs could aggro.
That's not the gameplay we set out to create, and not one we think we need to encourage.

M:You guys restricted how max level flying toons accessed max level ground only content b4, in WoD it is to hard?

B: Right we have to start designing content to deal with this mechanic that changes how the game is experienced in fundamental ways.
B: They end up being kind of weird things, like putting tons of tightly packed mobs on cliff sides to try to encourage some gameplay.
B: There's gotta be a point where we look at the reason for why we're having to do these things.

M:Bash,cmon mate.are you saying you are devoid of ideas to stop people"flying over a wall and killing a guy"wiping hands, case closed

B: No, we tried some stuff in Burning Crusade, but unless we make this a flight sim those solutions tend to feel really bad.

M:Tie mobs into the boss. Add discovery objectives to the quest. Use flying to enhance the quest. Use flying island objectives.

B:I'm not saying that without months or years of work we couldn't make flying a gigantic feature and core mechanic.

M: Sure, but is cutting dev time and therefore gameplay access to a feature so heavily marketted towards a good thing?

B:If it makes for a better game, absolutely.
But that's really just not the game we have been making or, at least currently, plan to be making. WoW isn't the flight sim MMO.

M: What is this better game play?How is it something better than I experienced flying in MoP, and how is it different for the better?
It never was the flight sim mmo, just like GW2 isnt the portal MMO. Flight is the signature WoW transport.You marketed to it.

B: It was added as a feature. And we've consistently released non-flyable max level content to try to deal with that decision.
Twitter is probably too brief a place to discuss something like game experience. Also, some people don't care about experience!

M:Flight is what players are accustomed to. You know this and market products to people who buy them.

B:Being accustomed to something isn't a good reason not to change it for the better.

M:Where is the Bnet announcement in regards to flight in WoD, and the possible reservations people might have ReDE flying mount?
You haven't sold items for extra money to anything people might be accustomed to before. except maybe pet battles/

B: You can still fly those mounts everywhere you've always been able to fly them when you purchased it.
And flying very well may be added in Draenor in the future, we don't know yet, but we'll let you know when we do!

M: But I purchased my DDE for WoD and using my 90 boost I only play WoD. I get to 100, and Im not able to fly on my flying mount.

B: That is accurate.

M:And this is the crux of my problem. You want me to buy a version of a game with a flying mount, you just dont know if...(1)
I can fly it in the expac I am buying. Cool. (2)

B:I don't want you to do anything you don't want to.

***(O interjects here)
M:Believe mate, arguing for free flight in an expac of WoW is not something I want to do.

O: You'll still be able to use it as a mount, it just has the bonus of being able to fly elsewhere (and maybe Draenor later).

M (to O and B):Cool, so I guess that disclaimer has been added to the WoD prebuy page right? To clear up any potential confusion?

B (to O and me) "feel the intensity of battle in greater detail with all-new character models" This isn't a technical document.

M( to O and B) "Guess the price is up for negotiation?If what you are selling isnt the actual goods being sold,then its worth is less?"

B The description of the mount is accurate. You're saying it isn't accurate in some circumstances. Which is correct.
It should probably also say can't fly in Arena, Battlegrounds, Dungeons, Raids, Inns, or most buildings.
Anyway, that mount is still cool even while running, but if those bonuses aren't worth it then get the normal version.

M: No, WoW players are used to not flying in those areas.They arent buying an inn,bg,dg etc with a flying mount (1)
They are buying an expansion with a flying mount,a whole continent, with the tag line of "swoop down on my enemies"(2)
Not 'buy WoD with a flying mount that only flies in all expacs but WoD" (3)

M to B and O: So I can just be content with NOT spending the extra money and riding my reins of the Raven lord mount, saving $$$$?

O bows out : I don't think I'm particularly pertinent to the ongoing conversation anymore, please remove me from mentions, thanks.

B: NO YOU WILL STAY IN THESE TWEETS! (lol sorry)

M: hahaha.

*that's it for now.

[Barkloud]

Of course I am right. I cite facts, I don't just spout shit to sound like a credible source. Blizz doesn't need to beg for business. They are the ONLY sub-based MMO to exceed and maintain 5M users for the past decade. They are shrewd and clever, and know exactly how to get money from people. Even people who HATE their product. Everyone who has complained in this thread has either been in the Beta, PTR, or at the very least watching streams on YouTube. They know people like this game. They may not love every aspect, or every decision, but they know at some point they will still pay to play. Even Nayaga who said "slogging through the game/mobs on the ground is not fun", and who said he would unsub for good if the game was no longer fun... is still playing.

Blizzard is shrewd and clever. They screw their customer base by starving them of content. They screw their customer base by incorporating ridiculous gates into the game. For the last YEAR the only new items incorporated into the game have to be purchased with real money.


They just lost 800,000 customers in 90 days.... Can you imagine what the third quarter is going to look like?

This expansion has had tremendous amounts of negative press. You think Blizzard likes threads like this that are 900 pages long?

I think Panic has set in over at Blizz, they are not thinking straight...

[-Superman-]

Wow, Walter II is doing a great job to piss you off it seems. Keep going.

Not trying to piss him off. I am just trying to figure out what his actual position on this topic is. Every statement seems to contradict or backpedal. Spent 20 pages talking about the game being no fun and "slogging" through stuff, but when asked about it, he gets defensive.

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Blizzard is shrewd and clever. They screw their customer base by starving them of content. They screw their customer base by incorporating ridiculous gates into the game. For the last YEAR the only new items incorporated into the game have to be purchased with real money.


They just lost 800,000 customers in 90 days.... Can you imagine what the third quarter is going to look like?

This expansion has had tremendous amounts of negative press. You think Blizzard likes threads like this that are 900 pages long?

I think Panic has set in over at Blizz, they are not thinking straight...

Considering they are 1 year into SoO, and have at least 2 more months before the launch, I am guessing in an expansion WITH FLYING, people are probably dropping out from BOREDOM.