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  1. #1

    So Bear-Cat was OP, but Gladiator Stance is acceptable?

    Good Druid tanks had been switching to cat to dps when not tanking since vanilla, and up until MoP, that was how we were expected to play. Suddenly at the end of Cata this practice went from being considered normal to considered OP and our versatility was gutted for MoP. So please tell me why now it is completely acceptable for Warriors to gain what we lost for WoD? For those who don't know what I'm talking about, this is Gladiator Stance:

    Gladiator's Resolve (Protection) - Increases the damage reduction provided by Defensive Stance by 5%.
    Also allows you to forgo your defensive role, and instead focus only on offensive capabilities, by replacing Battle Stance with Gladiator Stance. Gladiator Stance - A dauntless combat stance. Increases physical damage dealt by 20%, and replaces your Shield Block with Shield Charge. You cannot change into or out of this stance during combat.
    Passive
    Shield Charge
    20 Rage, 10 yd range, Instant, 15sec recharge, Requires Shields
    Raise your shield and charge a short distance to your target, increasing the damage of Shield Slam, Revenge, and Heroic Strike by 30% for 6 sec. Maximum 2 charges.

    It is essentially quite similar to Bear-Cat, especially when you take into account that ALL tanks will be using dps gear in WoD. Yes, they can not change in or out of the stance during combat, but they also do not need to worry about changing specs, glyphs, or gear to utilize this either. I know most people don't care, I know for years I detested being a Bearcat and often forced into the OT role because of it but 'the grass isn't always greener', and I miss Feral being one spec. We gained absolutely nothing in the split, but lost our versatility and our identity imo.

  2. #2
    Yeah, you're clueless.

    You cannot change into or out of this stance during combat.

    That's the difference.

    /thread, get lost.

  3. #3
    Mechagnome Edoran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Yeah, you're clueless.

    You cannot change into or out of this stance during combat.

    That's the difference.

    /thread, get lost.
    Yeah, while I don't agree with the way this post was worded, it's true. I saw it followed up and confirmed by a dev on Twitter shortly after the patch notes came out (I think it was Watcher, but I'm not sure).

    Honestly, I don't miss bear-cat one bit...

  4. #4
    Scarab Lord Raugnaut's Avatar
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    I was a bearkitty from WotLK->Cata, bearkitty with resto spec. Loved it, was sad to see it go.

    Gladiator stance though is NOT the same as Bearkitty. You either are 100% tank, or you are 100% dps with it. The main problem with bearkitty was that you were like 90% tank AND 90% dps at the same time, allowing you to do 90% of a dps's dps when offtanking (back when tanks did like 40% of a dps's dps when offtanking), and 90% of a tank's tanking when main tanking (which was more then enough for practically all fights).

    In DS especially, a bear-kat was very good for heroic spine (where you would tank the amalgamation and then kat-burst the tendon, extra burst could help with getting a tendon down in one go), heroic madness (you only had to tank big tentacles, hemo, and horrors), and a good number of previous fights in the tier. So you basically had an extra dps AND tank, or 2 tanks/7 dps/2 heals essentially.

    Glad Stance is either dps OR tank. It IS kinda cheating though, as warriors essentially get 3 specs with dual spec (Prot tank, Prot dps, and Arms or Fury)
    Anyone ever notice how the sun seems to shine silverish now? Didn't it used to shine goldish? PM me if you've noticed this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moounter View Post
    I think your problem is a lack of intellect.

  5. #5
    I loved bear-kitty but it was pretty op in the hands of a creative player. A lot of the fights in Cataclysm were 10x easier during progression with a half DPS, half tank.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Teye View Post
    Yeah, you're clueless.

    You cannot change into or out of this stance during combat.

    That's the difference.

    /thread, get lost.
    If I'm clueless, then you must be illiterate because I specifically mentioned that in my post. Doesn't change the fact that they are able to tank and reasonably dps in one spec with one set of glyphs and gear, the same way we used to bearcat.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    the same way we used to bearcat.
    You can keep repeating this, it doesn't make it true.

    The fact that feral DPS and Tank were the same spec didn't matter. What mattered was that we could be cat for part of any individual boss fight, and bear for another part.

    If we were stuck in either cat or bear form during combat, there would have been no problem at all with feral being one spec (other than that being annoying for us).

    The WORST thing you could say about it is that tier bonuses might get a little wonky (does DPS tier benefit them, does tank tier give glad stance DPS boosts, etc).
    Last edited by Braindwen; 2014-04-06 at 08:18 PM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    they are able to tank and reasonably dps in one spec with one set of glyphs and gear, the same way we used to bearcat.
    How exactly do you know more than us on that?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Braindwen View Post
    You can keep repeating this, it doesn't make it true.

    The fact that feral DPS and Tank were the same spec didn't matter. What mattered was that we could be cat for part of any individual boss fight, and bear for another part.

    If we were stuck in either cat or bear form during combat, there would have been no problem at all with feral being one spec (other than that being annoying for us).
    It's funny that people think there was a problem with it in Cata, when it was completely acceptable AND expected during TBC and Wrath. In any event, I never said it was identical, but you cannot argue it is not very similar. I won't deny that Warriors (and all tanks) should have some way to reasonably do damage when not holding aggro on the boss (previously Warriors could dual wield to help with this). My complaint is that an entire spec was gutted for us because it was OP for us to tank and dps with one spec and one set of gear while Blizz is creating just that for another class.

  10. #10
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    If I'm clueless, then you must be illiterate because I specifically mentioned that in my post. Doesn't change the fact that they are able to tank and reasonably dps in one spec with one set of glyphs and gear, the same way we used to bearcat.
    No, speaking as a druid, it is *not* the same way we used to bear-cat. Bear-cat was an in-combat practice of switching between DPS and tank to maximize performance as both. Glad. stance is an *out-of-combat* practice to maximize one or the other. Bear-cat/Glad. Stance comparison is as different as night and day.

    Closer analogy would be DA demo locks.
    so Warlords of Draenor is /'woɹː.loɹːdz ʌv 'ɖɹæːn.oɹː/.
    I've always loved how in an attempt to make pronunciation through text easier to understand people have created a seemingly alien cypher for which few people without a degree related to language would ever been able to understand.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by masteryuri View Post
    How exactly do you know more than us on that?
    How exactly do I know that the talent will even go live? I don't. Right now we have no reason to believe that one talent will warrant an entire change of glyphs and gear and frankly, it seems to me it would defeat the purpose if it did. Either way, all tanks will be using dps gear in WoD so while a Warrior certainly could swap out his +bonus armor gear for +whateveruberdps stat gear to make use of this talent on a particular fight, the same held true for Bearcat. Many people used the same set of gear for both tank and dps if they were still primarily tanks.

  12. #12
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    It's funny that people think there was a problem with it in Cata, when it was completely acceptable AND expected during TBC and Wrath. In any event, I never said it was identical, but you cannot argue it is not very similar. I won't deny that Warriors (and all tanks) should have some way to reasonably do damage when not holding aggro on the boss (previously Warriors could dual wield to help with this). My complaint is that an entire spec was gutted for us because it was OP for us to tank and dps with one spec and one set of gear while Blizz is creating just that for another class.
    Again, it had nothing at all to so with being able to do both reasonably, it had *everything* to do with us being able to do both *in combat*
    so Warlords of Draenor is /'woɹː.loɹːdz ʌv 'ɖɹæːn.oɹː/.
    I've always loved how in an attempt to make pronunciation through text easier to understand people have created a seemingly alien cypher for which few people without a degree related to language would ever been able to understand.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuda View Post
    No, speaking as a druid, it is *not* the same way we used to bear-cat. Bear-cat was an in-combat practice of switching between DPS and tank to maximize performance as both. Glad. stance is an *out-of-combat* practice to maximize one or the other. Bear-cat/Glad. Stance comparison is as different as night and day.

    Closer analogy would be DA demo locks.
    Bear-cat was also one spec filling 2 roles, often with one gearset. THAT is exactly what Glad stance is for Warriors. THAT is my issue with it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuda View Post
    Again, it had nothing at all to so with being able to do both reasonably, it had *everything* to do with us being able to do both *in combat*
    Then gutting the tree was not necessary and cd's or restrictions could have solved the so-called problem that wasn't a "problem" before people whined in Cata. Hell a few talent changes WITHIN the tree would have been enough since prior to Cata there were often more talents to separate the two.

  14. #14
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    Bear-cat was also one spec filling 2 roles, often with one gearset. THAT is exactly what Glad stance is for Warriors. THAT is my issue with it.
    /facepalm...You're ignoring WHY bear-cat was nerfed, it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that they could perform 2 roles with 1 spec, it had EVERYTHING to do with being able to switch between 2 roles mid-fight, Glad. Stance CANNOT do this, once they go into Glad. Stance, they're DPS for the duration of the fight, if boss turns and smacks them, they're just as dead as any other DPS.
    so Warlords of Draenor is /'woɹː.loɹːdz ʌv 'ɖɹæːn.oɹː/.
    I've always loved how in an attempt to make pronunciation through text easier to understand people have created a seemingly alien cypher for which few people without a degree related to language would ever been able to understand.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuda View Post
    /facepalm...You're ignoring WHY bear-cat was nerfed, it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that they could perform 2 roles with 1 spec, it had EVERYTHING to do with being able to switch between 2 roles mid-fight, Glad. Stance CANNOT do this, once they go into Glad. Stance, they're DPS for the duration of the fight, if boss turns and smacks them, they're just as dead as any other DPS.
    I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying that nobody had a problem with it before Cata and I do not understand why 3 xpacks later it suddenly was OP. Gutting an entire spec was not an appropriate response.

  16. #16
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    Bear-cat was also one spec filling 2 roles, often with one gearset. THAT is exactly what Glad stance is for Warriors. THAT is my issue with it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Then gutting the tree was not necessary and cd's or restrictions could have solved the so-called problem that wasn't a "problem" before people whined in Cata. Hell a few talent changes WITHIN the tree would have been enough since prior to Cata there were often more talents to separate the two.
    Putting a combat restriction on Druid forms is a lot more punishing than locking a warrior to a stance, lots of druid abilities can only be used in certain forms, i.e. if you got locked to cat in combat, you could never drop to tranq, only solution that *might* have worked, would be locking tanks to bear, although, again, they'd be wet noodles without rage from being hit, and also lose access to other utilities. Warriors can use all their abilities from one stance, so not as punishing.

    Your solution creates more than it solves.
    so Warlords of Draenor is /'woɹː.loɹːdz ʌv 'ɖɹæːn.oɹː/.
    I've always loved how in an attempt to make pronunciation through text easier to understand people have created a seemingly alien cypher for which few people without a degree related to language would ever been able to understand.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuda View Post
    Putting a combat restriction on Druid forms is a lot more punishing than locking a warrior to a stance, lots of druid abilities can only be used in certain forms, i.e. if you got locked to cat in combat, you could never drop to tranq, only solution that *might* have worked, would be locking tanks to bear, although, again, they'd be wet noodles without rage from being hit, and also lose access to other utilities. Warriors can use all their abilities from one stance, so not as punishing.

    Your solution creates more than it solves.
    I admit it's not a good solution to restrict forms, but the better solution would be to go back to the old days when the roles were more divided by talents. Of course, the crap talent system we have in MoP wouldn't really be able to handle that.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    Bear-cat was also one spec filling 2 roles, often with one gearset. THAT is exactly what Glad stance is for Warriors. THAT is my issue with it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Then gutting the tree was not necessary and cd's or restrictions could have solved the so-called problem that wasn't a "problem" before people whined in Cata. Hell a few talent changes WITHIN the tree would have been enough since prior to Cata there were often more talents to separate the two.
    but that is not what made bear-cat OP and that is not why it was changed
    God and maths? Hmm, the letter to alpha relation would be 7 - 15 - 4. Since it's all one word, it's safe to assume it's multiplication so it'd be 7*15*4=420. So realistically, god is related to cannabis? Perhaps that's what they were expecting you to write.

  19. #19
    If they remove the ability to shift forms for druids while in combat but brought back bear-cat as one spec, would you be happy? I doubt you would.

  20. #20
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bearshield View Post
    I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying that nobody had a problem with it before Cata and I do not understand why 3 xpacks later it suddenly was OP. Gutting an entire spec was not an appropriate response.
    And that has nothing to do with this thread, as it does not pertain to Glad. Stance.

    On the topic though, It's not that it was OP in cata (to my memory, the only time they were regarded as "OP" was during DS, which had more to do with the encounters than the spec itself), it's how OP it would be in Mists (keeping in mind the change didn't occur until mists).

    Pre-mop, to the best of my memory, Bears had to fore-go some DPS talents in order to gain their needed survivability, meaning they were lower on DPS than a full cat was. IF specs were not divided, Bear-cats would be insane, having full access to all DPS/tank abilities, on top of being able to freely switch between the 2 in combat. AGain, there's worlds of difference between what bear-cat would be today and what Glad. Stance will be, the 2 are not at all comparable.
    so Warlords of Draenor is /'woɹː.loɹːdz ʌv 'ɖɹæːn.oɹː/.
    I've always loved how in an attempt to make pronunciation through text easier to understand people have created a seemingly alien cypher for which few people without a degree related to language would ever been able to understand.

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