CM Lore on twitch: "rogues are not under performing"

[Deleted]

Disheartening reply from CM Lore. I'm sure half the time they don't like acknowledging actual data (Warcraftlogs etc) and just assume everything is fine. I'm already planning for Blackrock Foundry, if they dont redesign this class, I might actually for the first time since TBC have to consider a new main.

[adamzz]

I would say warlocks have it just as bad rather than far worse.

See: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/6#dataset=90

And the individual boss fights within there. Its a 50/50 split as to whether the top rogue spec or top warlock spec is lower on each fight.

Fair enough

[threads]

You... you are joking, right? Is that supposed to be idealistic, as in "everyone's simply dps once we're all adequately balanced" or some shite like that?
Compare Sub's AoE/Cleave damage with that of Combat. There's an entire galaxy of difference between the two.
Now compare the single target damage. Difference is much smaller, but still incredibly noticeable.

Saying that there're no "cleave specs" is like saying that back in SoO Affliction and Destruction warlocks were equally suited for multi-target and AoE fights. [600k DPS Destro on Garrosh says hi, as does 700k Affli on Protectors.]

That's cause rogue talent tree is garbage. Majority of dps classes have some kind of way to tailor talents to whether they want more ST or AoE.

[Bullettime]

maybe because combat is a cleave spec? it does fine on mythic mar'gok

just like sub performs perfectly fine on mythic butcher

It'd be great if the specs actually excelled at those specializations. But they don't. Combat AoE is good but it's not amazing to warrant the large ST loss. Same situation but reversed for Sub.

If a spec only has one real strength then it needs to be good at it. Instead, Rogues have to constantly respec for each encounter, despite each spec wanting a whole different gear set, just for a chance at competing with other melee who can just do everything in one spec. Basically every other melee got to skip the whole "having strengths and weaknesses" part of design and just have tools for every job.

[Lesane]

You... you are joking, right? Is that supposed to be idealistic, as in "everyone's simply dps once we're all adequately balanced" or some shite like that?
Compare Sub's AoE/Cleave damage with that of Combat. There's an entire galaxy of difference between the two.
Now compare the single target damage. Difference is much smaller, but still incredibly noticeable.

Saying that there're no "cleave specs" is like saying that back in SoO Affliction and Destruction warlocks were equally suited for multi-target and AoE fights. [600k DPS Destro on Garrosh says hi, as does 700k Affli on Protectors.]

I think he means that there should be no such a thing as a cleave "spec", other than something you might do through talents that every spec has access to.

[Generical]

Maybe Lore is right guys. I mean getting used to these Combo Points has been quite the ordeal, but I think I'm finally starting to learn how they work. They're on ME now instead of the TARGET.

[cfStatic]

Maybe Lore is right guys. I mean getting used to these Combo Points has been quite the ordeal, but I think I'm finally starting to learn how they work. They're on ME now instead of the TARGET.

Preposterous!

[Exroyal]

I'm pretty sure that means warrior is OP, not that rogue is UP.

We have a spec in the top third, a spec in the middle, and a spec in the bottom third. That's about as balanced as you can get.

Sure, if we were hybrid then it would be ok to be top in single, middle on cleave and bottom on aoe or however, just using that as an example. As a pure, we should be at least middle on every spec.

[Gungrir]

We are fine guys

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17N.html

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html

Nothing wrong with us , just reroll Mage or Huntard.

[roguetank]

We are fine guys

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17N.html

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html

Nothing wrong with us , just reroll Mage or Huntard.

my god... how is it every time these are linked we get worse and worse?

[Gungrir]

my god... how is it every time these are linked we get worse and worse?

nerfing some classes (monk especially, they hate those guys) and buffing others. We didn't get much attention so we didn't get worse, the others just became better at scaling.

I know SimC is not the best resource for a serious dps debate but they are good indicator.

[roguetank]

It just blows my mind that 1 class with 3 different DPS specs, can have all 3 of them in the bottom half of the sims.

How is that not under performing?

If we aren't under performing, every other class is wayyyyy over performing, yet we don't hear a single word about that.



Sometimes I think about the good old days of being a rogue, get excited, and jump on my rogue ready to raid... only to see things like this and completely lose all motivation to play.

Why should i pay $15 a month to play a gimped class. The only thing we have going for us in pvp is a gimmicky 8s stun, and in pve we are the lowest of the low. How do they let this happen.

[cfStatic]

It just blows my mind that 1 class with 3 different DPS specs, can have all 3 of them in the bottom half of the sims.

How is that not under performing?

If we aren't under performing, every other class is wayyyyy over performing, yet we don't hear a single word about that.



Sometimes I think about the good old days of being a rogue, get excited, and jump on my rogue ready to raid... only to see things like this and completely lose all motivation to play.

Why should i pay $15 a month to play a gimped class. The only thing we have going for us in pvp is a gimmicky 8s stun, and in pve we are the lowest of the low. How do they let this happen.

Semi-sarcastic:

Literal years of other classes filling Olympic sized swimming pools with rage-tears because... you name it. Stealth, stuns, damage. With the way some non-rogues have bitched about the class over the years, you'd think we'd have collectively committed heinous war crimes or something.

[Volitar]

I really think rogues are fine if you can play all three specs. Not great but certainly playable. Every class has there xpacs/tiers where they are in the spotlight.

[Yodawinfrey]

Semi-sarcastic:

Literal years of other classes filling Olympic sized swimming pools with rage-tears because... you name it. Stealth, stuns, damage. With the way some non-rogues have bitched about the class over the years, you'd think we'd have collectively committed heinous war crimes or something.

Might steal that for a quote. Since Vanilla that is pretty damn spot on. It's always been the same with us though. We can whine and cry about our damage for our st/aoe/cleave niches, we get a minuscule buff in areas that we didn't even say anything about. While other classes can rain down tears and get a rather hefty buff in that area or even a rework of said spec/talent/damage/etc. I'm in no way crying, as I don't think at the moment we're so bad off that literally nobody brings a rogue to a raid. But, we need some work.

Even with each spec having their own niche, we don't even excel in those areas. We're just sub par or middle/bottom end of the pack. While other pures and even hybrids with one dps spec out right make our numbers look abysmal for ST/Cleave/AoE. It does suck, but, I've stuck with this class for 10 years now. We have had(and so has everyone else) bad times and amazing times. It just seems when we have our bad times that nothing gets done about it in a timely manner or we're told, "you're fine." It always comes down to us getting buffed in the end and blizzard making some poor excuse as to why we weren't looked at sooner. Tis the way of the rogue.

[Maelstrom51]

my god... how is it every time these are linked we get worse and worse?

It was recently found out that Sinister Calling procs do not crit or multistrike for Rupture, which lowered Sub's damage on sims slightly.

Sims are generally not the best indicator of performance, but rogues being last is also backed up on logs this time around.

[DakonBlackblade]

Rogues are so fine that the top guild in the world has elected to have no rogues at all in theyre roster, they have 1 of everythng, the onyl class not represented on theyre 20 man roster are rogues. So lets rejoice just how fine the class is.

[cfStatic]

Rogues are so fine that the top guild in the world has elected to have no rogues at all in theyre roster, they have 1 of everythng, the onyl class not represented on theyre 20 man roster are rogues. So lets rejoice just how fine the class is.

And others in the top 5 did. The race wasn't so close that it would have came down to who brought a rogue and who didn't.

[Gentlepenguin]

And others in the top 5 did. The race wasn't so close that it would have came down to who brought a rogue and who didn't.

yeah, just gear from the future.

i really do think a lot of rogues just have an innate fear of buffs. never want to be near the top lest we get smote by blizzard.

CM Lore is right. we're not under performing. because we're performing where blizzard wants us to perform. two low end specs and one below average.

rogues need to just join a struggling mythic progression guild and be one of their best players so you too can talk about how well off the class is.

[threads]

Ret can destroy sub at ST and keep up at aoe. WW can destroy combat cleave and probably still beat out sub ST. Anyone who thinks rogue is fine because they're top dps in their guild just means their guild isn't good.