RIP Shamans

[ThatGuyBud]

If this next PTR build has no class balancing, then RIP shamans as 6.2 is out next freaking week....

We have not yet done a final numerical class/spec balance pass. Many of initial changes in the first PTR patch notes were aimed at correcting stat weighting imbalances. Feedback isn't being ignored; it's just being supplemented with lots of useful data from PTR testing that we're continuing to gather, and then numbers tweaks will follow.
- Watcher 2015/05/23 03:45:00 PM

[Guchie]

I guess we should just be happy that we werent overpowered and just didn't know it.

[Deleted]

Well numbers tuning came last time really last minute (patch day) and they hotfixed tons of stuff in the weeks after.

Yet what really disturbs me is that especially enhancement was lower than everyone else and was getting no buffs.

[Deleted]

Elemental & Resto are fine tuning-wise, enhancement isn't that good for ST but it's not horrible either, just below average.

[Deleted]

Elemental & Resto are fine tuning-wise, enhancement isn't that good for ST but it's not horrible either, just below average.

What? We are straightout bottom, over 10% behind middle of the pack and up to 20% behind the top dds.

And 6.2 sims suggest that difference jumped to 10 and 30%.

We are in a very poor spot for 6.1 and it has only become up to now since many other specs have much stronger set bonuses or class trinkets. Additionally some of the lower specs like assa rogues alreay got huge buffs.

Honestly all the data and sims we have for 6.2 is totally devastating outside of some aoe encounters.

And elemental was nerfed so far in 6.2. They could also need a small buff.

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Those are the simcraft numbers for every classes best dps spec (feral, balance, enh, ele are seperate) for 6.2 T18 Normal incl set bonus:

Dk 65.0
Mage 64.2
Ret 61.2
Warrior 59.8
Warlock 59.0
Feral 57.6
Hunter 56.2
Balance 55.1
Rogue 52.3
Monk 51.9
Ele 49.9
Enhancer 49.1
Shadow 48.7

We are not midpack at all.

Midpack in sims would be druid specs and enhancers are 17% behind ferals.

[Alltat]

We are not midpack at all.

We are right now, and the rest is all speculation. Give it a month so there's some actual data, then you can declare the class dead.

[Deleted]

Yeah from the sims so far it seems like enhance isn't looking good at all. One of the lowest st and cleave again. Our aoe probably won't be utilized during progression much either, the fight mechanics just don't favor it. Our aoe needs to be a lot stronger to have any kind of cleave/aoe relevance within the mechanics that blizzard is putting out because a lot of other classes have equivalent or better cleave/aoe for dealing with any adds we'll see in HFC.

Well according to sims, elemental has lost contact in 6.2 so far too. Just look at my numbers above.

Dont compare to arcane or frost dk, they are way off. But the rest is now 15 to 20% ahead for now. In 6.1 sims, elemental was upper half, close to balance and warriors in sims. Just take a look how much worse elemental looks now in sims. It is somewhat scary.

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We are right now, and the rest is all speculation. Give it a month so there's some actual data, then you can declare the class dead.

Sims are accurate. All set bonuses are implemented. Bugs have been solved. BIS sets worked out.

This is close to what we would see if nothing changed in the coming days. Elemental and enhance are again in a state like the first weeks of WoD.

Back then, people like you always told us that we needed more data and so on. But we dont need more data, we need buffs because we are far behind. Any raid data in the next weeks would only confirm this simcraft data. Just like befinning of 6.0 all over again.

It is time people realise that all the changes so far made both shaman specs again drop far behind.

[Wengel]

Last time i checked, Resto shamans were doing quite well this expansion and the changes to the Riptide+Chain Heal synergi just makes it even better in 6.2...
Don't declare the class dead just because one spec isn't at the top. Guess Locks were declared dead too after the Demo nerf then?

[Deleted]

We are talking about dps shamans. Noone suggests so far resto would we bad.

[Blithe]

We are right now, and the rest is all speculation. Give it a month so there's some actual data, then you can declare the class dead.

That doesn't help when you're trying to fix problems now that would end up causing us to declare the class dead in a month anyway.

[DiNett]

There are various sim tables right now. None of them are same even. Pronouncing class dead is too soon. If anything shadow priests are dead

[Deleted]

There are various sim tables right now. None of them are same even. Pronouncing class dead is too soon. If anything shadow priests are dead

Actually ALL of them see enhanceon the bottom, 15 to 30% behind nearly everyone.

And they have settled for now. Those numbers i posted are very actual and it is very easy to find BIS sets rigjt now with all those different ilvls.

So far the last ones had only minor movements because the profiles are pretty accurate. Changes of 1 or 2% are always possible, but more is unlikely at this stage.

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That doesn't help when you're trying to fix problems now that would end up causing us to declare the class dead in a month anyway.

As if i would last another month of this shitty dps. I only stayed enhancer because i hoped for some big improvement and rebalancing in 6.2.

Yet all the new data suggests it has gotten even worse than 6.1. Most other melees are over 20% ahead on single target with only rogues and monks being less than 10% ahead.

[Zyky]

We are right now, and the rest is all speculation. Give it a month so there's some actual data, then you can declare the class dead.

We've been dead most of this expansion with "tuning" just to bring us barely to viable. And it isn't even real viability because dps Shamans are no where to be seen in any higher end raiding guild. 6.2 has brought a 5% nerf to multistrike damage and a 5% buff to multistrike scaling(which doesn't counter the damage nerf at all). Oh ya an extra few seconds on lava surge for the bad players that aren't using lava surge right away. So 6.2 Elemental has been an overall nerf and Enh got nothing.

They're constantly disregarding the DPS Shaman feedback from people, like myself, who actually run the numbers on ptr testing the bosses. They disregard everything we say and make bullshit comments talking about the Unleash spells shouldn't be in the game and about how the only thing wrong with elemental is that Ascendance is "numerically underwhelming". They have no idea what's up with dps Shamans and ignore feedback and any questions/concerns about us.

[Deleted]

They might also do a mythic numbers patch like they did when mythic HM released. Lets all put our heads together and say a prayer

[Ballrug]

What? We are straightout bottom, over 10% behind middle of the pack and up to 20% behind the top dds.

People who think that being simmed by an inaccurate 3rd party tool 10% behind "middle of the pack" is "garbage" are just ... I mean ... seriously, have you even considered how that figure was arrived at, and how very little it even means, and how a smart player could zig instead of zagging and more than make that up?

[Aori]

People are really obstinate about Shamans being even mediocre, god forbid they are actually good. You'll have like 1 out of every 1000 shamans say they're perfectly fine, l2p noob.

Either way originally Shamans were to be looked at in 6.1, Blizzard said sorry this isn't going to be that type of patch, we're working on them for 6.2. "Guess what guys! We did it, Glyph of Ascendance! boom, nailed it."

Shamans are boring, I liked the way the class felt in Cata as Enhance, I know I'm a minority but I thought it was great in terms of gameplay.

[Deleted]

People who think that being simmed by an inaccurate 3rd party tool 10% behind "middle of the pack" is "garbage" are just ... I mean ... seriously, have you even considered how that figure was arrived at, and how very little it even means, and how a smart player could zig instead of zagging and more than make that up?

It is also based on raid logs, personal experience and a lot of data. Especially warcraftlogs can deliver this data.

And simcraft was always close. Just saying it is in inaccurate doesnt make it inaccurate. That tool is kept up to date by some very experienced theory crafters who put a lot of work into it. Especially enhancers have their best source of theorycrafting in that tool.

And just look at warcraftlogs and compare it to 6.1 simcraft data. Simcraft is really close. Always a few percent error margin, but never that far off.

[Zyky]

People are really obstinate about Shamans being even mediocre, god forbid they are actually good. You'll have like 1 out of every 1000 shamans say they're perfectly fine, l2p noob.

Either way originally Shamans were to be looked at in 6.1, Blizzard said sorry this isn't going to be that type of patch, we're working on them for 6.2. "Guess what guys! We did it, Glyph of Ascendance! boom, nailed it."

Shamans are boring, I liked the way the class felt in Cata as Enhance, I know I'm a minority but I thought it was great in terms of gameplay.

I still like the gameplay of my shaman(8 years maining now), but I agree with everything else you've said. At this point in time we're not even mediocre. We're "is no one available to raid" "pick me pick me" "anyone that isn't a dps shaman? Fuck...I guess we'll take the warm body". Not to mention the blatant disregard and flat out lies fed to us by the Devs, not just what you mentioned, but many times in the past. I'd by lying though if I said this is the worst place elemental has been in, because we were far worse in T7 and T11, but that isn't the point when they keep feeding us this "standpoint" of "Bring the player not the class." I'm just about done with my Shaman after 8 years of being treated like a redheaded step child.

[wordup]

We are right now, and the rest is all speculation. Give it a month so there's some actual data, then you can declare the class dead.

As I've already answered this in another thread, I'll simply rei-iterate. We are currently either rock bottom, or mid-to-high tier, depending on AoE. On Gruul, Oregorger, H&F, Blackhand & Iron Maidens, you will find us right at the bottom. On Flamebender, mid-tier, Kromog/Beastlord high-tier, & Blast Furnace/Thogar top tier.

Now, the only way you come to a "middle of the pack" conclusion is if you're lazy and simply look at boss statistics for all bosses overall, which is inaccurate and completely worthless data. You need to look at boss-to-boss comparison, and having a swing of "average-to-good" depending on very specific circumstances (and in the cases of Thogar/Beastlord, MASSIVELY inflated data due to people whoring for ranks in the last few weeks of BRF) to "rock bottom" on single target fights, is terrible in design.

[Deleted]

As I've already answered this in another thread, I'll simply rei-iterate. We are currently either rock bottom, or mid-to-high tier, depending on AoE. On Gruul, Oregorger, H&F, Blackhand & Iron Maidens, you will find us right at the bottom. On Flamebender, mid-tier, Kromog/Beastlord high-tier, & Blast Furnace/Thogar top tier.

Now, the only way you come to a "middle of the pack" conclusion is if you're lazy and simply look at boss statistics for all bosses overall, which is inaccurate and completely worthless data. You need to look at boss-to-boss comparison, and having a swing of "average-to-good" depending on very specific circumstances (and in the cases of Thogar/Beastlord, MASSIVELY inflated data due to people whoring for ranks in the last few weeks of BRF) to "rock bottom" on single target fights, is terrible in design.

Just looking through warcraftlogs and using the common classes/specs that are played in this encounter per class (so most played mage spec, most played lockspec and so on, so i get 13 relevant specs):



Gruul: 12/13 (shadows a little behind), 16% behind bm hunters
Orgregor: 13/13 (last place by far, 20% behind hunter/feral)
Blast Furnace: 2/13 (our fight to shine)
Hansgar and Franzok: 13/13 (yeah, well, 25% behind feral and even more behind fire mages)
Flamebender: 8/13 (still far behind fire mage/demo lock, but it's solid compared to mother specs)
Kromog: 6/13 (midpack)
Beastlord: 3/13
Thogar: 1/13
Iron Maiden: 13/13 (monks are 45% ahead on average...)
Blackhand: 12/13 (rogues are now behind, yet, rogues are very useful in this fight to soak)

So on 50% of fights, we are very bad, pretty much rock bottom. On 2 fights midtier, on 3 fights top tier.

On average we are rank 8.3, which isnt THAT bad. But being worthless on 5 out of 10 fights is really bad. It's okay to be bottom on 1 or 2 fights, but not 5 for sure.

And the only reason we aren't totally worthless is fire nova, which much about exploiting too. Most raidleads look primary at single target dps and boss target dps, not how much dps you cheat on adds.

Even Furnace: you can cheat your dps (like we do), but primary tactic is to focus. Our dps is partially wasted.

And we are a melee spec with low utility. That's additional a problem. On most fights, you want as few melees as possible. If we didnt push our dps on adds, we'd be completely dead waste.