Level of Abuse By Raid Leaders/Officers

[High Marshal Sigismund]

I largely want to talk about the vocal criticism given during raids on skype/mumble/whatever. I haven't raided in a long while now so I don't know how guilds operate now, but back in BC/Wrath I saw a lot of disrespectful behavior toward mistakes from raiders during encounters. For example, one guild I joined the raid leader just put everyone in general on blast when wiping, calling them complete idiots and to shape up and stop being worthless, in addition to explaining the encounters. I've seen people call out others for standing in the fire and directly insult them, or sometimes just yell at them like they are a child.

My questions are, how much is too much? When do you put your foot down and feel like telling the person in question to piss off? What kind of criticism are you receptive to? What kind do you hate?

Bonus question: What do you think when guilds advertise requiring "thick skin"? Is it bullshit so they can walk all over you? Or a legit requirement?

[Turin777]

I can only speak of my experience. The people I raid with are very low key. If you continually fuck up, you will get coached, but most people don't lose their shit and everyone tries to remain positive. When people DO bitch, they bitch at the content and not the other players. With the exception of that one guy in vent who randomly shouts expletives at people in the middle of a wipe, but they try to keep him in line.

[Orangetai420]

I never join guilds that take themselves that seriously. It is a game after all and there are plenty of guilds that can get shit done without being disrespectful. Don't stress, it's just a bunch of tryhards.

[Greylan]

An occasional harsh word is no big deal -- even the most patient person is gonna let their frustration out at times. If it's a regular thing, it's a guild to be avoided; plenty of guilds get things done without abuse. You can hold people accountable / correct them / fire them without abuse.

[Teaon]

never been a guild that insult/bash someone personally

the usually do it through whispers? its not bashing or insutling but rather asking for him to "Shape up" or "stop failing on the same mistake each pull"

and when raid leader wants to shout on TS, he usually say "WE" need to shape up, "WE" need to stop slacking, aka generalizing, to avoid drama?

calling out specific people in public is never good, NEVER

[Tziva]

Personally, I try to make direct criticisms in private whispers. If it is impeding our immediately success I'll message them during the raid between pulls, but if it's not something urgent I'll do it outside of raid time which I feel is a better time if at all possible. I only ever call people out by name mid-fight if they are having repeated issues or are obviously struggling to notice the mechanic. After I say "guys, don't forget X" before each wipe, after the 15th wipe, I'm going to start saying "Bob! X!"

I do recommend people in my raid have thick skin because we're very heavy on the teasing and are "mean" to each other in jest socially... but as far as actual raid stuff, I always err on the side of being nicer about it because people are generally more receptive that way. If you yell at or berate someone, half the time they just get defensive and it doesn't actually solve the problem. I've encountered some raiders in the past that will get very stubborn and actively resist following instructions (or do the opposite) if someone calls them out publicly in an insulting way.

Ultimately, I'm pragmatic about things. Maybe person X deserves harsher feedback than I give and I'm sugar coating my criticsms too much, but I want to win and sometimes that means being nicer than I feel just so they will cooperate and we can move on than wasting time arguing with them and being angry that they need to stop fucking up the same thing over and over and over again. I don't really care - as long as they stop fucking up that thing.

I will make comments about the raid in general if we are being sloppy or whatever vocally during raid when it is true, but always generalised.

But, yeah, I am probably on the "too nice" end of the raid leader spectrum, but we're also a more casual (heroic rather than mythic) raid group.

[Pull My Finger]

I can't relate to that whole world at all. It's always been a complete mystery to me how people would continue to play in guilds where they had some bitch ass "raid leader" being a dick to them or "criticize" them for something. It blows my mind.

Having a dork on the internet reprimand you in a video game for some shit - it's absurd, LOL

[Damajin]

I used to be both a raid and guild leader who was very vocal in calling people out directly and wasn't afraid to really rip them apart in front of everyone else. If you do this equally and consistently people pick up on it and while it sucks when it's happening to you when you see it applied to everyone you accept that it's necessary to make sure everyone is pulling their weight. I learned this in the military that you apply discipline uniformly even to yourself and people will not enjoy it but they'll respect it which is what you want. When I was a member of another guild it was ran this way and things worked smooth. You need a hardass to kick ass and make things happen.

Any guild advertising thick skin as a requirement is basically looking not to waste their time. They're wanting to be as efficient as possible, and some tough love can help with that. If that doesn't match with the person, you remove the person.

I miss the days of Troxed, Sebudai and such.

[Gum]

Depends on what you see as a personal insult. "Stop being shit" too harsh for you? "Could you stop dying and shape the fuck up you clown" too much? If so, get over yourself. I think its pathetic to have the attitude that your fun trumphs that of others. Others can play with close to no mistakes, so can you. Else you get told to do better. Works like that elsewhere in life aswell, being a game isnt an excuse to have a lax attitude to doing well and shitting on your friends and their time.

Thing is, if you rarely make mistakes, noone will care when you do, normally people that have issues with being called an idiot, are horrible at the game. I think its fair to advertise not wanting those in your guild

[Simulacrum]

I can't relate to that whole world at all. It's always been a complete mystery to me how people would continue to play in guilds where they had some bitch ass "raid leader" being a dick to them or "criticize" them for something. It blows my mind.

Having a dork on the internet reprimand you in a video game for some shit - it's absurd, LOL

Not as absurd as wasting your time playing a team game with people so bad at both playing the game and being a part of the team that they induce abusive insults from others.

On the other hand, it's probably not a good idea to insult these people. It's better just to kick them. Alas, most guilds don't have access to an endless supply of recruits to fill the ranks, hence compromises, having to bring people who "play for fun", and raid leaders losing their temper with them...

[High Marshal Sigismund]

"Could you stop dying and shape the fuck up you clown" too much? If so, get over yourself.

You could just as easily say "If you don't stop dying and shape up, we will replace you with someone more effective until you fix your mistakes". But I get that maturity and empathy is not a strong suit for some people.

[Fayenoor]

@OP - I suggest you google "Troxed Soundboard" to get an idea of how abusive a raid leader can be.

Just like every other member of the raid team, the raid leader is paying the same sub fee to play the game. However, they have the added responsibility of coming up with strats, fine tuning based on raid composition. They don't get paid for it; in most cases they don't get any extra loot or priority on loot over other members.

All they want in return is that the raiders execute simple tasks set to them. As a raider if you can't execute the task, then communicate with your raid leader. However, if you have accepted the task, and repeatedly keep failing at it, then be prepared to be called out directly.

Most raid leaders who are generally vocal in their style of leadership, don't victimize a player. They call out pretty much everyone screwing up. Some people don't make many mistakes; so don't get called out. Some keep making the same mistakes over and over again. So they keep getting called out directly.

For example, if 3 people are on an interrupt rotation on a boss and if one of the 3 repeatedly keeps messing up the rotation, then be prepared to be called out directly. In my style of raid leading, I would call the person out directly on mumble and say something like "Toon X - you keep missing your interrupt; what gives?".
I wouldn't say something like --"Interrupters, you need to do a better job at interrupts".
That kind of blanket statement is doing great injustice to the other 2 people who are not screwing up the rotation.

And please, please don't give "lag" as an excuse.....

[Echo of Soul]

It's only gotten worse. The officers in my last guild yelled so much that it started to lose its meaning.

[Taurous]

I would just call them an asshole and leave. I'm playing a video game, I'm not taking one second of someone's bullshit. On the other end, I wouldn't insult someone or yell at someone, I'd just say either you fix your mistakes or I'm kicking you.

[Tojara]

My style is just being sarcastic. I generally don't like to call individuals out, so I do it in broad strokes. Everybody knows who I'm talking to, but they don't get called out directly.

I think what a lot of people need to understand, is while this is a game, there a certain level of coordination at certain tiers of the game that are expected in order to actually accomplish anything. Some people play the game akin to where it's important that their intramural couple of days a week sports team makes the championships or competes hard. Other people play that same intramural sport to where it doesn't matter what happens and who cares if we lost 40-0. What ends up happening a lot is people end up on the wrong team, and had no idea what they signed up for.

That said I've heard some raid leaders which take it way too far, to the point that I can't see how it's motivating in the slightest. On the flip side there are far too many people who are super defensive about their shitty plays.

[IxilaFA]

never been a guild that insult/bash someone personally

the usually do it through whispers? its not bashing or insutling but rather asking for him to "Shape up" or "stop failing on the same mistake each pull"

and when raid leader wants to shout on TS, he usually say "WE" need to shape up, "WE" need to stop slacking, aka generalizing, to avoid drama?

calling out specific people in public is never good, NEVER

I disagree with this approach. If you make generalized statements, individual responsibility and errors get glossed over. For example, say someone keeps dying to chains on Mythic Archimonde. Why would you say 'We need to survive those chains' when it's one specific person messing up? Not only that, but calling someone out puts them on the spot and makes them realize that they are the ones fucking up. During Mythic Blackhand progression we had one person constantly fucking up, but because no officers spotted it or called him out on it, he didn't realize it for dozens of pulls. That's a waste of time.

I try to be lenient with raiders in my guild for the first several dozen pulls on a boss (less if it's an easier boss, more if it's a harder boss). If we are losing people consistently due to learning how to deal with Mechanic X and Mechanic Y, I don't really care that you died. Hopefully a few more pulls and it will work itself out. But if we are 100 pulls on a boss like Tyrant Velhari and you're still dying to your Corrupted Font falling off while you're still in the stack? Yeah you're going to get bitched at.

That said, I try not to insult anyone on a personal level. "Why do you keep messing up this mechanic, X?" or "Why do you keep dying at this point, Y?" is usually what I will say. I would never go beyond that and actually insult someone's ability to play or anything about them because they messed up in a video game. If you can't tolerate being called out because you fucked up an easy mechanic, sorry, don't know what to say, maybe grow a spine? But I can see why some people don't want to be called idiots and retards all day by their raid leader...that's a step too far, if you ask me.

Lastly, if you do get called out by a raid officer over something fair, don't just make an excuse. Come up with a solution instead. "Sorry I died because I was standing in the wrong spot. I realize now that I need to stack with the raid on X and it won't happen again" will get you a lot more respect from me than "dunno, guess I was in the wrong spot??" Also never, ever mention lag as an excuse. If that's going to be your excuse, just cut the shit and say you fucked up and let's move on. In the end, the only reason I'm asking why you died to a mechanic is because I want to make sure that you know what you died to and how to fix it. I'm more interested in your solution to fix the problem and if it's a possible detriment to the raid group as a whole and the strategy we're using. I could care less what actually happened.

[Thelxi]

I hate shouting period. No reason for it, grow up.

[Gum]

You could just as easily say "If you don't stop dying and shape up, we will replace you with someone more effective until you fix your mistakes". But I get that maturity and empathy is not a strong suit for some people.

The latent burn. I see you prefer the round about way of calling someone an idiot. To me there's no difference, people prefer different approaches; The most mature thing is, that people making the mistakes own up to it, and apologize for it. Then there's rarely a need to get angry.

But i understand you have a hard time dealing with others emotions and accepting differences that doesn't work/seem fair in your worldview. That doesn't inherently make something right or wrong. I think people above the mental stage of a teenager will be able to deal with being called "an idiot" "Clown" or "Asshat". If not, start taking yourself either 1) Less seriously and accept your shortcomings or 2) Dont have shortcomings.
Hopefully, you acknowledge the fact that people have the right, to be mad at you for doing a piss poor job, let it be in a school-project in your Highschool, at your job when you grow older or as part of your friend-group where you get drunk and hit on someones girlfriend. Its all fun and games, but you're still a damn clown.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

The latent burn. I see you prefer the round about way of calling someone an idiot. To me there's no difference, people prefer different approaches; The most mature thing is, that people making the mistakes own up to it, and apologize for it. Then there's rarely a need to get angry.

But i understand you have a hard time dealing with others emotions and accepting differences that doesn't work/seem fair in your worldview. That doesn't inherently make something right or wrong. I think people above the mental stage of a teenager will be able to deal with being called "an idiot" "Clown" or "Asshat". If not, start taking yourself either 1) Less seriously and accept your shortcomings or 2) Dont have shortcomings.
Hopefully, you acknowledge the fact that people have the right, to be mad at you for doing a piss poor job, let it be in a school-project in your Highschool, at your job when you grow older or as part of your friend-group where you get drunk and hit on someones girlfriend. Its all fun and games, but you're still a damn clown.

The level of salt here is unreal. Thank you for the evening chuckle.

[Deleted]

Shouting solves nothing obviously. Raising your voice is fine sometime.

Depending on the mistakes and people reaction I choose different approaches.

I 99% of time know exactly who and what wipes us, and I will often ask people to tell me what went wrong. - This leads to be often getting silence or whispers from snitches, which in the end I don't really care about. Everyone makes mistakes my goal is to have the person(s) realise what they did wrong and make sure they know it was them and that they know how to avoid it going on. Obviously being on 9 months farm there's pretty much nothing new and people just have bad days now and then though I still prefer people to own up to their mistakes rather then trying to hide them.

During progress, people will come up with all kinda random excuses which are often highly hilarious when looking back but not in the moment. As a raid leader there's generally IMO four rules you need to follow.

1. Know exactly how you beat the encounter(while knowing the strengths of your current roster) from all 3 perspectives, Tank, Healer and DPS.
2. Be aware of whats happening in the raid
3. Give out responsibility to people in the raid
4. Know classes and their abilities

To elaborate on my first point, world top 5 guilds often have some varying tactics to use and most of those should not be used by every guild since a normal guild don't have the time or dedication from the players at the same level meaning, each player won´t have the same awareness and skill, often choosing a much simpler way is the easier path.

Personally if people are being quiet about their mistakes, I will use names, not to humiliate a person but to make sure the person actually knows whats going on.
I have often explained tactics to the entire guild and had my fellow officers relate to me that for instance Healers or Melee wasn´t listening and chatting about how this clearly didn't concern them and I basically had to start over and change some wording ect

For me, it's important that everyone knows their roles and does that to perfection always, DPS optimization or HPS for that matter comes second. Take Xhulhorac is none ever gets stepped on from the voidstep the fight is easier even if it last 40-80 seconds longer due to slow DPS, you might wipe at low percentage but you will get far most likely. Yet, we often had people getting stepped on, maybe 40? of our 110ish attempts during progress voidsteps led to wipes and considering how easy it is to deal with if you focus on it, it can be really challenging to keep everyone focused when the same mistakes keep happening.

For the last part, when people die they first thing they often look at is healing, "I didn't recieve any healing for 6 sec???" As a Raid Leader, I look at why are you taking damage, did you use X, Y or T ability you have to help healers? Did you try and do the most unholy of rituals and sacrifice DPS for survival? Sometimes it will be the healers fault, but healers are not 24/7/365 miracle workers saving people from their own mistakes

End of the day every guild outside of top 20 will most likely kill bosses if people played safe and DPS played at let's say 90 percentile level or even 80 percentile. Safe meaning none took extra damage and executed the fight to perfection and to play with 19 other people sharing that same goal is often rare, not because people choose to mess up but because they focus on the wrong things.

There's a difference between doing your absolute best and doing your absolute best for the guild and the encounter

End of the day, if you are a raid leader shouting 24/7 or being angry 24/7 you won't have people in the guild listening to you anyway, meaning you will be just white voice that none will hear or gain any benefit from anyway. We are all people and react to stuff differently but my opinion is always EVERYONE makes mistakes, learn from them and move on, don't hold grudges for no reason and don't be afraid to talk to people about motivation/reasoning behind actions.