[BREWMASTER] 7.X Discussion Thread

[Dakiri]

My BoS does 255k damage while RJW does 286k (without crits). With BoS having 12% more crit it is 10.2% more damage on average with my crit% bringing it to 281k damage. Not winning by a huge margin.

Even BoF does 248k without DoT. So only 15% more than a BoF direct damage parts.

It can't really compete with other abilities (in ST). It needs to have a fitting place where to use it without sacrificing other abilities for it to be good. With legendary shoulders and chest I find it really difficult.

Without the legendary or two it obviously works.

It's actually super easy to find a place to use RJW with the chest. You have time for 2 sets of BoS->TP after every KS/BoF, with 1 GCD in between due to the 3 sec BoS cooldown. The only option you have for that second is an unempowered TP, which does less damage than RJW and also screws up your energy. I guess if you have a ton of haste and your KS is close to 6 seconds it gets messy, but also there's basically no reason to run that much haste. General thoughts from what I have seen have most people at under 12%, which has been working great for me.

I'm not sure how the shoulders would make it harder. Maybe there's a better method (I don't have them), but I'm guessing you just dump both charges and proceed from there, maybe using BoB a bit earlier than normal to account for the energy loss. Then the rotation continues as above. Not sure why it would make sense in a normal sustained fight to have a charge sitting there, which means the charge doesn't really matter after the first couple seconds of the fight.

[ReD-EyeD]

Surprise: Not everyone has the chest.

[keqe]

Yeah, lets compare one ability without crits to another one with them.

BoS is 373% x 1.2 +12% crit chance against RJW 9x69=621% while being constant damage (with separate crits) and not being affected by armor as it is not physical damage.
The thing is that you can freely squeeze it in your rotation when you're energy starved and it is convenient AOE that you can use even before the pack pulls in m+. I'm not really comparing them directly, but it is still better damage per button than BoS on ST and obviously AOE.

When I accounted the 12% extra crit from BoS trait crit will affect both equally. Thus it doesn't matter to compare crit vs non crit. And my tests on dummy showed the difference is minimal. The raw AP values aren't accurate because the "brewmaster aura" tuning knob changes the damage. http://www.wowhead.com/spell=137023/brewmaster-monk

Also, RJW is physical damage.

The point is that by replacing abilities with RJW can't be better than SD. Only when it is "extra".

Yes it can be used when energy starved, but the problem is that how often is that? If you can only use it 30% of time when you run out of energy how worth it is compared to SD and especially Niuzao on ST?

[Dakiri]

Surprise: Not everyone has the chest.

Of course, and there will potentially be progression fights where you don't use it as well. I literally only got it a week ago. My post was to say that it is really easy and natural to fit in RJW with the chest. Without the chest, it's even easier, since you have the same amount of GCD's to fill in between every Keg Smash, and half the time you won't have a BoF to cast. RJW only costs the GCD, so even if it did minuscule damage, it would still be a DPS gain to cast as long as we had open GCDs...and unless you're running some crazy high haste + chest set up, you'll have empty GCDs.

[keqe]

It's actually super easy to find a place to use RJW with the chest. You have time for 2 sets of BoS->TP after every KS/BoF, with 1 GCD in between due to the 3 sec BoS cooldown. The only option you have for that second is an unempowered TP, which does less damage than RJW and also screws up your energy. I guess if you have a ton of haste and your KS is close to 6 seconds it gets messy, but also there's basically no reason to run that much haste. General thoughts from what I have seen have most people at under 12%, which has been working great for me.

I'm not sure how the shoulders would make it harder. Maybe there's a better method (I don't have them), but I'm guessing you just dump both charges and proceed from there, maybe using BoB a bit earlier than normal to account for the energy loss. Then the rotation continues as above. Not sure why it would make sense in a normal sustained fight to have a charge sitting there, which means the charge doesn't really matter after the first couple seconds of the fight.

Yeah worded that a bit badly. Meant mostly the chest+shoulder combo. With just chest and 14% haste you have that extra global where you use RJW.

The shoulders change the situation because they allow you to play kind of like you had 33.4% haste for periods of time. The gain is that you don't lose BoS uses like you do with 14% haste where KS and BoS CD line up at the same time.

During those periods you don't have globals to use RJW. And thus I doubt the energy droughts are plentiful enough for RJW to go ahead of SD.

Ironically, the "DPS legendaries", chest and shoulders have a potential to be the best defensive combo for ToS. Because shoulders allow you to use BoS on CD without sacrificing brew generation and chest allows use of BoF often you gain tons of EB stacks in stable fashion.

Leading to silly situations like this:

[Dakiri]

From what I've seen it looks like RJW does about 2x the damage of SD per cast. So if you are using brews more then 2x as often as you can use RJW, then I guess SD is better. Even on a fight where you can just blow ISB as fast as possible for DPS, you generally can't use much more than 1 brew every 4.5 seconds. So if you can RJW every 9 seconds, you're even. That's every other Keg Smash rotation, which should still be doable, even with the shoulders, even during lust. And that optimistic brew usage will go down once we lose our 4 piece, which will mean you will only have to use RJW every 12+ seconds for it to break even over SD.

The caveat is that if you're messing up your rotation and delaying Keg Smashes because you're struggling to find room for RJW, then SD will be the better bet. It is easier to use since you'll be brewing regardless.

[Deleted]

Ironically, the "DPS legendaries", chest and shoulders have a potential to be the best defensive combo for ToS. Because shoulders allow you to use BoS on CD without sacrificing brew generation and chest allows use of BoF often you gain tons of EB stacks in stable fashion.

Pretty much this. I've got Shoulders as my 11th Legendary and going to use these + Chest during whole ToS.

[ReD-EyeD]

Leading to silly situations like this:

I would like to see the comparison to no legendary chest try. It still feels not THAT important.

[keqe]

From what I've seen it looks like RJW does about 2x the damage of SD per cast. So if you are using brews more then 2x as often as you can use RJW, then I guess SD is better. Even on a fight where you can just blow ISB as fast as possible for DPS, you generally can't use much more than 1 brew every 4.5 seconds. So if you can RJW every 9 seconds, you're even. That's every other Keg Smash rotation, which should still be doable, even with the shoulders, even during lust. And that optimistic brew usage will go down once we lose our 4 piece, which will mean you will only have to use RJW every 12+ seconds for it to break even over SD.

The caveat is that if you're messing up your rotation and delaying Keg Smashes because you're struggling to find room for RJW, then SD will be the better bet. It is easier to use since you'll be brewing regardless.

With shoulders during Lust you barely have time to even use breath of fire because you still have to BoS every 3s. You have to trade BoF's for KS once in a while.

And without Lust if you have energy you won't have room to use RJW because of "high haste-like" rotation. You use keg smash every 6 seconds with 7s recharge. But because you start with 2 charges it will have this "buffer" so you run out of energy before you reach 7s keg smash CD. So you fill every global with KS, BoS, Empowered TP or BoF. And trading those for RJW isn't enough to beat SD.

When you run out of energy you have globals for RJW. But is it enough uptime when most of the time you can't use it?.

- - - Updated - - -

I would like to see the comparison to no legendary chest try. It still feels not THAT important.

I took 7 out of 31 hits on that fight. First one was instantly at pull so let's count 6 hits that I took.

On every non-wasted stack dodge BoF was casted. 5 times I got 3 stacks thanks to it, guaranteeing dodge. 2 times I got 2 stacks thanks to it, dodging with those stacks. 1 time I got 4 stacks but 2 of those were from BoF.

So chest potentially helped me to take only 6/14 hits.

Even I don't think it is that dramatic difference in reality. You will cast BoF without chest too. But that 15s CD BoF can easily be wasted and go over cap which hurts much more than it would with chest.

[Mokuna]

Feverish Carapace (the trinket from the first boss which appeared to be the only good tank trinket in the raid) seems to be stealth nerfed for monks (that or dozens of monks have had a bad luck with it all night), the rppm appears to be much lower than other tanks leading to a mighty 5-10% uptime on it when other tanks get 20-30% , again great design, and also great information to share on the tooltip so guilds can more easily attribute loots

[dcc626]

Feverish Carapace (the trinket from the first boss who appeared to be the only good tank trinket in the raid) seems to be stealth nerfed for monks (that or dozens of monks have had a bad luck with it all night), the rppm appears to be much lower than other tanks leading to a mighty 5-10% uptime on it when other tanks get 20-30% , again great design, and also great information to share on the tooltip so guilds can more easily attribute loots

i have a pair of darkmoon cards that likely will be it for me for a while. nothing but tier has any interest for me sadly in ToS...

[Deleted]

Feverish Carapace (the trinket from the first boss who appeared to be the only good tank trinket in the raid) seems to be stealth nerfed for monks (that or dozens of monks have had a bad luck with it all night), the rppm appears to be much lower than other tanks leading to a mighty 5-10% uptime on it when other tanks get 20-30% , again great design, and also great information to share on the tooltip so guilds can more easily attribute loots

Great, so again not a single trinket out of the raid for Brewmasters.

[Deleted]

A lot of discussion around energy & rotation, can you please clarify what is considered to be the correct rotation at this point?

With Chest: KS > BoS > TP > BOF > KS > BoS > TP (repeat?)

Questions
1) I find that I am running out of energy at times so need to skip the second TP to not miss a KS. Is that normal (around 17% haste but running Bloodthirsty and Memento, so getting some haste procs)

2) When do you fit in the RJW? Is it at the end before restarting rotation (i usually have half a second left on KS re-charge)

3) I suppose if you drop BoC then using that last TP is less important since it is not DPS empowered, so less of a big deal to skip to recharge energy for KS

4) If you drop chest, I can see it is a lot easier to fit RJW into the rotation (alternating BoF / RJW), is that correct?

Thanks!

[keqe]

A lot of discussion around energy & rotation, can you please clarify what is considered to be the correct rotation at this point?

With Chest: KS > BoS > TP > BOF > KS > BoS > TP (repeat?)

Questions
1) I find that I am running out of energy at times so need to skip the second TP to not miss a KS. Is that normal (around 17% haste but running Bloodthirsty and Memento, so getting some haste procs)

2) When do you fit in the RJW? Is it at the end before restarting rotation (i usually have half a second left on KS re-charge)

3) I suppose if you drop BoC then using that last TP is less important since it is not DPS empowered, so less of a big deal to skip to recharge energy for KS

4) If you drop chest, I can see it is a lot easier to fit RJW into the rotation (alternating BoF / RJW), is that correct?

Thanks!

Running out of energy is an issue at all haste levels. If you want to use RJW drop your haste to closer to 14% and you can fit it perfectly to global before KS. You won't have to drop the chest. Even with 17% haste KS should have more than half a second CD left after last TP. Set your lag tolerance slightly above your latency so fill globals precisely. Though it just might be the haste procs altering it for you too.

[Deleted]

Running out of energy is an issue at all haste levels. If you want to use RJW drop your haste to closer to 14% and you can fit it perfectly to global before KS. You won't have to drop the chest. Even with 17% haste KS should have more than half a second CD left after last TP. Set your lag tolerance slightly above your latency so fill globals precisely. Though it just might be the haste procs altering it for you too.

Very helpful. Thanks.

And so when you run out of energy, you are just not doing the second TP to ensure not delaying Keg Smash? Makes a lot of sense from a survival perspective IMO, even when running BoC.

[keqe]

Very helpful. Thanks.

And so when you run out of energy, you are just not doing the second TP to ensure not delaying Keg Smash? Makes a lot of sense from a survival perspective IMO, even when running BoC.

I am using shoulders so I still use the TP. Usually BoB is coming off CD around that time to reset the energy situation. Can't imagine playing with LB with all the energy droughts.

[Deleted]

Feverish Carapace (the trinket from the first boss who appeared to be the only good tank trinket in the raid) seems to be stealth nerfed for monks (that or dozens of monks have had a bad luck with it all night), the rppm appears to be much lower than other tanks leading to a mighty 5-10% uptime on it when other tanks get 20-30% , again great design, and also great information to share on the tooltip so guilds can more easily attribute loots

I was actually expecting it to do very minimal damage on monks (since you can only reflect damage when you actually get hit), but the fact that the uptime is that shit for monks is really fucking weird. I mean sure, monks and DH's benefit more from bonus armor than any other class in the game, but that is true for DD:I as well and I haven't seen that nerfed. Just happy now that I got that trinket on my druid instead of on my monk.

[Dakiri]

A lot of discussion around energy & rotation, can you please clarify what is considered to be the correct rotation at this point?

With Chest: KS > BoS > TP > BOF > KS > BoS > TP (repeat?)

Questions
1) I find that I am running out of energy at times so need to skip the second TP to not miss a KS. Is that normal (around 17% haste but running Bloodthirsty and Memento, so getting some haste procs)

2) When do you fit in the RJW? Is it at the end before restarting rotation (i usually have half a second left on KS re-charge)

3) I suppose if you drop BoC then using that last TP is less important since it is not DPS empowered, so less of a big deal to skip to recharge energy for KS

4) If you drop chest, I can see it is a lot easier to fit RJW into the rotation (alternating BoF / RJW), is that correct?

Thanks!

KS > BoF > BoS > TP > RJW > BoS > TP

Infinitely repeatable with chest. If you have under 14% haste, you have 6 GCD between each KS and 2 GCD between each BoS, so you can switch BoF and RJW if you want (makes 0 difference if you're staying on same target). It's a negative energy rotation but if you stick to it the cooldown for BoB lines up really nicely with when you start to run out of energy.

I would consider dropping some haste and those trinkets if you are able. There's not much defensive benefit beyond like a handful of extra purifies per fight and there's almost no DPS benefit to be over 14% haste. When you're at 17% haste you either use KS on CD and then have to wait .8 seconds at some point anyway, or you delay your KS by .2 seconds every time and waste the haste. You'll get way more benefit out of having an extra 3% of a different stat than you do out of that haste.

[Mayonnaise]

so whats up with special delivery why is it showing up more and more

[ReD-EyeD]

so whats up with special delivery why is it showing up more and more

Read the patchnotes then. It's 100% chance now with 30% damage.