Undead Paladins, Alonsus, and Lordaeron [possible spoilers]

[Isenholt]

I've had an idea bouncing around my brain the since the BfA reveal and I thought I'd make my first post here on mmo-champ and share it. It includes a rather controversial topic that I've found cannot be discussed on the wow forums without the whole thing devolving into a total mess, so here goes.

Firstly, I am one of those Undead Paladin supporters—hold your fire!—I came upon it honestly. I started as a Forsaken Warrior in classic, but always loved the Paladin theme, so when my Horde friends quit, I made my first Paladin. I've been torn ever since.

I saw a TCG card years ago that inspired me to rp my Forsaken warrior as an ex-Paladin.

Here's a link to the card itself: EDIT; I can't post the link since this is my first post. The card is Chancellor Velora, an Undead Holy Priest. Her flavor text is what inspired me: "The Light rewards faith, not form."

I realize that she is a Priest, and that the wow forum community has a long time tradition of gleefully pointing to the difference between infusion and channeling, but I refute that claim. In a more recent Q&A, when questioned about Undead Paladins Afrasiabi said this in reply:

"The way the holy light is used for paladins and priests is different. Priests use it for the preservation. Paladins use it offensively. Undead and demons... actually I am making a terrible argument. I'm kidding. It leaves a sour taste.

Actually we'll talk about it."

The first Paladins were clerics (part of the priesthood) that received the martial training and armaments of knights after they suffered heavy losses in the First War. Apparently some of the more pious knights made a reverse commute and received training in the Holy Light, so we know that ultimately a Paladin is the convergence of Holy magic and knightly prowess.

We also know that confidence and faith are central to being able to wield the Light as a Paladin. This is how the Scarlet Crusade is able (mind control aside) to use the Light even though they are violating the whole concept of the Light. They represent intolerant but unwavering zeal.

Now on to BfA and my idea.

My thought is: Alonsus Faol hears about the Desolate Council and their dissatisfaction with Sylvanas' plans. He reaches out to them or vice versa, and begins helping some of them reclaim their connection to the Light. This tests the limits of their vaunted willpower, a cornerstone of the Forsaken as we know, and thus the Undead Paladin is born. Their real world inspiration could perhaps be the Stoics/Neostoics or flagellants.

Keep in mind this is a small number, so the Forsaken at large are unchanged and not "whitewashed" as some would claim. A faction that is supposed to espouse free-will shouldn't really be dominated by one archetype in the first place, something which I've had an issue with that for years but that's another post.
Here's where it gets a bit muddled. I was thinking that since Alonsus Faol is more associated with the Alliance (check me on that) perhaps it would be odd that he has dealings with the Forsaken.

Could a portion of the Undead become a playable subrace for the Alliance after the taking of Lordaeron? This could potentially be good for players because some of the Undead that live in Lordaeron are the remnants of that kingdom and it is theirs, but the Alliance has long desired to reclaim it....this could be win/win.

On the other hand, if there is a playable subrace of Undead that rejoin the alliance, would that become an issue as far as Horde only having two races that can be Paladin? Perhaps they can have troll Paladins, and we can also have Undead Paladins? Sounds overly optimistic but again, win/win from my perspective.

Lastly, if a portion of the Undead of Lordaeron were to rejoin the Alliance, would Paladins alone be enough of a reason to do this? I honestly think the lore alone would be awesome. Lordaeron should remain in the hands of the (few) Undead who perhaps suffered nobly to maintain their humanity (a la Roberic Dartfall and others).

This is post is half wish half fanfic, but honestly when I saw Alonsus in Legion, I couldn't help but think: This is the guy....he could help the Undead become Paladins again in a way that preserves and enhances the lore. It would be fitting for the Father of Paladins to train some new ones from the ranks of Lordaeron, since they share the same struggle in undeath. Part of their unique take on the Paladin class could be that they have to maintain utter discipline over their bodies. The Light hurts their bodies, but doesn't destroy them. The pain they feel is a constant reminder that helps them from slipping into mindless undeath. I think this could be one of the coolest forms of devotion in game, and lets face it, the Light is basically being painted as yellow magic these days. Any connotation with actual faith is pretty faded at this point.

Thanks for reading. I hope this can be discussed with civility, even if you hate what I wrote. Cheers!

[Shibito]

I like the idea and its a pretty awesome read you should do more of these type of posts on this forum. I am serious this was really good and i hope your dream of forsaken paladins become true.

[MonsieuRoberts]

I don't see why not. I also don't know much about the lore.

Would an Undead Paladin be able to walk and talk at Light's Hope? That seems to be the "check" for whether or not you're a good guy or a goon.

If an Undead Pally could leave a flower at Tirion's tomb then sure.

[Netherspark]

In principle I agree, but I dont think it's a good idea to mix the factions too much.

[Edlarel]

If an Undead Pally could leave a flower at Tirion's tomb then sure.

I would love this as a quest to unlock them as an option. Similar to allied race s it could open up the class to start a team a higher level.

[Razion]

I like integrating Alonsus Faol into the angle. He and Anduin should talk.

Death Knights were waved into the Alliance on the word of Tirion, and are now knighted in by Anduin. (Precedent.)

So, "why not Forsaken Warriors/Priests? Wouldn't Faol vouch for them, too?"
Would Warriors not? Even if they were royal knights of Terenas Menethil II and visited the church every day?
Would Priests not? Even if they were high-priests Faol knew who just decided to devote time to faith rather than the military?

Like, "sorry, you don't have the code of a knight, you weren't knighted, you'd need to have these things for Faol to vouch for you."
I think Faol would vouch for anyone who he knew well enough to be a believer in the Light -- even if their faith were just "citizen-level".
For example, I think Faol would probably vouch for members of the Dawn or Crusade like Bartholomew.

Also... wouldn't Forsaken DKs be okay?

Anyway, if I were a newly-risen Forsaken, I would try to enter the priesthood or Faol's circle to reunite with my living family in the Alliance, if I had any. I think Faol, as a good priest, would probably try to reunite families and wouldn't much care what "class" you were and would vouch for anyone he knew to be good.

At this point I want Forsaken Paladins so much I don't much care what loophole or lore-bending it takes to make it happen as long as I can make one.

[Koryn123]

I could see perhaps Blizzard shoehorning in the Risen Scarlet Crusaders into joining the Forsaken somehow, bringing their paladins with them.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I could see perhaps Blizzard shoehorning in the Risen Scarlet Crusaders into joining the Forsaken somehow, bringing their paladins with them.

First thing is first, they would need their minds back.

[Koryn123]

First thing is first, they would need their minds back.

Balnazzar was merely a setback?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Balnazzar was merely a setback?

"it was just a prank."

[Isenholt]

I like the idea and its a pretty awesome read you should do more of these type of posts on this forum. I am serious this was really good and i hope your dream of forsaken paladins become true.

Thanks for saying that, it means a lot to me!

Thank you all for such a nice welcome. This has already been a more fruitful experience than all my time on wow forums, haha! I'm still waiting on someone to post "NO".

There has been a lot of talk about Troll Paladins, and while I don't want to take that away from those who have long desired that class/race combo, I didn't want the Undead Paladin to get buried *heh*.

It seems like such a natural fit to me, even now when the faction war is about to be renewed and divisions will be strong. I guess we'll have to see what Golden does in her novel. On that note, I seem to remember cdev saying novels are not strictly canon unless otherwise specified. Is this what you all know to be true?

[Deleted]

Any race that can be a priest or warrior should have no lore reason to not be a paladin as well

[Friendlyimmolation]

On topic, much like Draenei warlocks I will always be against undead pallies. When we see a undead in lore that was able to be a paladin And had full control of their body, I would concede. As of now all undead pally would do would be rolling on the floor in agony.


Onto the other topic, I don’t think undead will ever be playable on the alliance (other than death knights) because they don’t want to blur faction lines


Novels are canon unless said otherwise, you had it backwards

[Chizitzz]

It seems like such a natural fit to me, even now when the faction war is about to be renewed and divisions will be strong. I guess we'll have to see what Golden does in her novel. On that note, I seem to remember cdev saying novels are not strictly canon unless otherwise specified. Is this what you all know to be true?

Golden works for Blizzard as a full time employee now, so the assumption is her books will tie directly to the lore, and she will help direct the in game lore.

[Obelisk Kai]

I think the dream of Forsaken Paladins died during that Blizzcon Q and A a few years ago when someone asked the devs about it, they had a discussion on stage among themselves and ended up seemingly convincing themselves that Undead Priests had been a mistake.

[DeicideUH]

I like the idea.

For a long time, I thhought that Forsaken paladins, considering how the Forsaken were always portrayed, would make no sense.
However, with the Desolate Council now showing forsaken dissidents, plus undead guys like Faol and the ones working with the Argent Crusade, I could see some Forsaken actually wielding the Light. They'd probably be in terrible pain (and I'd love to see that reflected somehow visually, like Forsaken paladins burning as they cast spells), but that only adds to their coolness. Faith rewards sacrfice, after all.

I think the dream of Forsaken Paladins died during that Blizzcon Q and A a few years ago when someone asked the devs about it, they had a discussion on stage among themselves and ended up seemingly convincing themselves that Undead Priests had been a mistake.

And yet there are Risen paladins, so the door is left open.

But the real problem is that the same Priest class has both Holy and Shadow opposites. Forsaken shadow priests make a lot of sense. Holy priests... not so much. This also is reflected with Void elves and Lightforged Draenei. Maybe they should have made Priest = Light, and another class (Heretic? Whatever) = Shadow.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I like the idea.

For a long time, I thhought that Forsaken paladins, considering how the Forsaken were always portrayed, would make no sense.
However, with the Desolate Council now showing forsaken dissidents, plus undead guys like Faol and the ones working with the Argent Crusade, I could see some Forsaken actually wielding the Light. They'd probably be in terrible pain (and I'd love to see that reflected somehow visually, like Forsaken paladins burning as they cast spells), but that only adds to their coolness. Faith rewards sacrfice, after all.


And yet there are Risen paladins, so the door is left open.

Risen are puppets, not actual free-willed individuals.

[DeicideUH]

Risen are puppets, not actual free-willed individuals.

And despite being undead controlled by a demon, they can wield the Light.

[Friendlyimmolation]

And despite being undead controlled by a demon, they can wield the Light.

You are missing the point entirely. Every undead paladin we have seen wasn't in control of their own body, so they would be forced to channel the light instead of rolling about on the floor in agony. Until there is an undead paladin in the game that can do it by themselves, there are no actual examples.

[DeicideUH]

You are missing the point entirely. Every undead paladin we have seen wasn't in control of their own body, so they would be forced to channel the light instead of rolling about on the floor in agony. Until there is an undead paladin in the game that can do it by themselves, there are no actual examples.

Where does this info come from?