Deathgrip

[Parynziux]

The only change that needs to be made to it is that it shouldn't work on a warrior using bladestorm, that's a bit absurd.

It would be hilarious if DG worked in reverse against Bladestorm. Ever watch string get trapped in a motor? Yeah, same effect. I'd enjoy that for giggles!

On topic: If you have issues with DG, fuck off and deal with it. Honestly, it's on a 25 second cooldown (LOL THAT'S WITH TALENTS LOLLOL) and stops at 30yd.

Add to this the fact that most Death Knights don't use DG very well and so it is countered by its own user a lot of the time.

That aside, I'm noticing a fair few arguments stating that it's not like charge because it brings enemies to you, not vice versa. True, but warriors get 2 of these charges. Their style is not "come into my lair, pretty"; it's more in your face like a psychotic, sentient blender.

I'm also noticing a growing trend in saying it disadvantages teams too much because of the first argument (eg. it takes a player out of their healer's range). I have two questions about this:
1. What healer isn't able to heal 30+ yards?
2. Why is the healer so far away to begin with that they can't get within range quickly?


Adjust accordingly for other classes.

OKAY.

Conclusion time: Stop being a sucker-punching shitbrain and play the game without trying to fix everything that YOU think isn't right or is unfair. Chances are your perspective is horrible skewed because you're a losing git and just want to be noticed or whatever the fuck you're trying to do. Because it's definitely not victory you're after!

[Acolimitzi]

A cyclone is 6 seconds of taking an opponent completely out of the fight. It's not like Polymorph or Blind, where some bad Mage can accidentally break it instantly with a poorly-timed Frost Nova. It's not like Fear or Stuns, where you can be healed through them (hopefully). A PvP trinket has a 2 minute cooldown. A PvP trinket is the -only- counter to Cyclone (except those preemptive Paladin bubbles). If for any reason whatsoever, someone has to use their trinket on something that is NOT Cyclone, you just gave a Druid unlimited access to 6/3/1 seconds of completely taking someone out of the fight. The two cannot be compared. They each have their uses. Crying nerf on one because you don't recognize the value of the other means you do not understand the concept of "class balance" or "separate but equal"

You are missing the point. The fact that you can trinket a cyclone, gives you a counter to it, even if it is just one. Can you trinket a Death Grip? No? Then why compare? Fact is, some classes have no way to counter a DG pull. and this forces you to attack the DK.

Pet Stun is deep unholy talents. If we're to assume every DK is Unholy, and has a permanent pet, shouldn't we also assume that the other classes in question are the most popular/efficient PvP specs? Preperation gives a second, on-demand Sprint. Shamans are being worked on. Paladins can cleanse/remove all snares a DK can apply. You can't say "X ability is overpowered, except against Y ability and Z ability", because then it isn't called "overpowered", it's called "different". Or "competative".

Until Death Knights have a Heal reduction/removal of some sort, Healers will get stronger every new patch, while all Non-Warrior/Rogue DPS will lose their ability to kill said healers.

Rogues/Wars/Paladins/enh shaman(warriors to the lesser side of the spectrum) do not have ability to kill a healer with a competent DK as their partner, so your future prediction for DKs is a horrible truth for these classes. Whenever you even get close, you are pulled away, and by the time you reclose the gap and work on another kill chance, death grip is up and you are pulled away again. You really do not seem to understand this, and it may be my fault... I could be explaining it wrong.

DG needs a shorter range, or a longer cooldown.

[Abolishment]

You are missing the point. The fact that you can trinket a cyclone, gives you a counter to it, even if it is just one. Can you trinket a Death Grip? No? Then why compare? Fact is, some classes have no way to counter a DG pull. and this forces you to attack the DK.
Rogues/Wars/Paladins/enh shaman(warriors to the lesser side of the spectrum) do not have ability to kill a healer with a competent DK as their partner, so your future prediction for DKs is a horrible truth for these classes. Whenever you even get close, you are pulled away, and by the time you reclose the gap and work on another kill chance, death grip is up and you are pulled away again. You really do not seem to understand this, and it may be my fault... I could be explaining it wrong.

DG needs a shorter range, or a longer cooldown.

Then what is your healer doing? Spamming some efficient heal from half of the map away? The teams that work are the ones that synergize. If you're having trouble taking on DK's, do some research on what your partner can do to counter the Death Knight. It sucks, but maybe your composition is to blame.
Is it a Priest? Are they burning healer mana, fearing enemies after trinkets, Mind Controlling the Death Knight off of the bridge so you can get away? Hell, using Fear OR Mind Control to bring out a trinket early?
Is it a Shaman? Grounding Totem absorbs Death Grip. Disease Cleansing Totem has no cooldown, and if placed out of line of sight, or on a separate level, can serve as a very big distraction. Is he timing his Bloodlust right, helping apply some pressure with Lava Burst? Shamans are getting some major buffs next patch that should help them become more competitive, but the sad fact is most compositions drop the Resto Shaman in favor of someone who can do a little more.
Is it a Holy Paladin? Most paladins are actually gearing Holy, but specing Prot so they have added survival/silences/a snare, and some pretty bursty damage.
Is it a Druid? Is he spamming Cyclone as often as possible? Covering Innervate with Barkskin while it lasts? Rooting classes that have no means escape?

The rest of the world can cope with Death Knights. I'm trying to help you join the club. Priest/Mage/Rogue is the number 1 3v3 composition in the world, and has been ever since Druids were not able to keep up in WotLK.
2v2 teams are a little more diverse. There are many competitive compositions that are easily able to maintain a high enough rating for every achievement/reward. 5v5s are seemingly just "first/more organized team able to kill a member of the opposing team, GG" mode right now, so talking 5v5 strategy brings far too many unknowns into it.

Every competitive class has some quirk that justifies their popularity. Rogues have AoE Cripple/Wounding Poison spam. Death Knights have Death Grip. The list goes on. I don't have issues with Death Knights- at least, no more an issue than I have with a well played Mage, Rogue, or Warrior. Everything else is slowly catching up.

I realize we were, at no point, talking about dueling, but I feel it needs saying. Death Knights are one of the classes that right now, pending gear and skill, can not kill a healer 1v1 until the healer is OOM. There are classes like Mage, Warlock, Rogue, and Warrior who at least have a chance because their gimmicks provide a very small window in which to kill a healer. This gap will only become more pronounced with time. I do not think Death Grip is any more a problem than Thunderstorm in EotS, or Fan of Knives in 5v5. It's annoying, sometimes, but not game-breaking.

I apologize if I sound snide, I just don't see why people think it's such a big problem. I'm sure there are still "Nerf Blind/Cyclone/Mind Control/Mortal Strike/Polymorph" threads in everyone else's forums, because in the particular mindset/composition those posters are in, they seem just as ridiculous as the people in this thread view Death Grip.

EDIT: As far as untrinketable, game-deciding effects go, you cannot trinket Mortal Strike, Wounding Poison, Aimed Shot, Frost Trap snare, Bladestorm aggro, any silence, any disarm, or any school lockout. We cope with them anyways. It's time for Death Grip to join that list.

[magelan]

it's hardly on a short cd now,

maybe it will get changed but i doubt it most classes including the mage can get out of it or become immune to attacks for a short period as can paladins,

your all just pissed off becuase you came across a dk who used deathgrip on you at a time when you were low on health and died well i hate to say this but that would have been a good time to use it.

or just annoyed because some scrub dk killed you.

we could sit here all day long and just remove spells or abilites from other classes we didn't like and strip them bare, yeah more nerfs are coming but i can tell you now it won't be long before the buffs start hitting them because of all the needless qq.

[Arrack]

Ignoring the fact that this would destroy pve and the OP can't count past 2 (lol countless).

Its no different than charge. The fact that you can be death gripped into a "zerg" is easily counter by being able to charge out of one, or intercept, or intervene. DKs don't have spamstring. They have death grip and chains of ice and that is it. Everything else is talented. DKs are already forced to spec into snares.

There's so much fail here I don't know where to begin...
You cite charge, intercept and intervine as ways to get away from a DK...they're all warrior abilities so don't apply to the other 8 classes available (though blink, sprint and demonic circle are viable none warrior options you neglected to mention them)
DKs do not have "spamstring" however they have chains of ice which from what I've read about PvP (not being a great PvPer myself) is FAR more powerful (again you only cite a warrior ability)

Every single melee class has a way of closing the gap and keeping you in melee. DKs aren't the best at it. Rogues have to spec into shadow step because they can stealth up to you and start in melee, then sprint after you while slowing you with poisons.

Every single melee class has a way of closing the gap...Paladins don't the overrated Persuit of Justice doesn't count and DK are much better at it than Paladins.

[Acolimitzi]

Then what is your healer doing? Spamming some efficient heal from half of the map away? The teams that work are the ones that synergize. If you're having trouble taking on DK's, do some research on what your partner can do to counter the Death Knight. It sucks, but maybe your composition is to blame.
Is it a Priest? Are they burning healer mana, fearing enemies after trinkets, Mind Controlling the Death Knight off of the bridge so you can get away? Hell, using Fear OR Mind Control to bring out a trinket early?
Is it a Shaman? Grounding Totem absorbs Death Grip. Disease Cleansing Totem has no cooldown, and if placed out of line of sight, or on a separate level, can serve as a very big distraction. Is he timing his Bloodlust right, helping apply some pressure with Lava Burst? Shamans are getting some major buffs next patch that should help them become more competitive, but the sad fact is most compositions drop the Resto Shaman in favor of someone who can do a little more.
Is it a Holy Paladin? Most paladins are actually gearing Holy, but specing Prot so they have added survival/silences/a snare, and some pretty bursty damage.
Is it a Druid? Is he spamming Cyclone as often as possible? Covering Innervate with Barkskin while it lasts? Rooting classes that have no means escape?

The rest of the world can cope with Death Knights. I'm trying to help you join the club. Priest/Mage/Rogue is the number 1 3v3 composition in the world, and has been ever since Druids were not able to keep up in WotLK.
2v2 teams are a little more diverse. There are many competitive compositions that are easily able to maintain a high enough rating for every achievement/reward. 5v5s are seemingly just "first/more organized team able to kill a member of the opposing team, GG" mode right now, so talking 5v5 strategy brings far too many unknowns into it.

Every competitive class has some quirk that justifies their popularity. Rogues have AoE Cripple/Wounding Poison spam. Death Knights have Death Grip. The list goes on. I don't have issues with Death Knights- at least, no more an issue than I have with a well played Mage, Rogue, or Warrior. Everything else is slowly catching up.

I realize we were, at no point, talking about dueling, but I feel it needs saying. Death Knights are one of the classes that right now, pending gear and skill, can not kill a healer 1v1 until the healer is OOM. There are classes like Mage, Warlock, Rogue, and Warrior who at least have a chance because their gimmicks provide a very small window in which to kill a healer. This gap will only become more pronounced with time. I do not think Death Grip is any more a problem than Thunderstorm in EotS, or Fan of Knives in 5v5. It's annoying, sometimes, but not game-breaking.

I apologize if I sound snide, I just don't see why people think it's such a big problem. I'm sure there are still "Nerf Blind/Cyclone/Mind Control/Mortal Strike/Polymorph" threads in everyone else's forums, because in the particular mindset/composition those posters are in, they seem just as ridiculous as the people in this thread view Death Grip.

EDIT: As far as untrinketable, game-deciding effects go, you cannot trinket Mortal Strike, Wounding Poison, Aimed Shot, Frost Trap snare, Bladestorm aggro, any silence, any disarm, or any school lockout. We cope with them anyways. It's time for Death Grip to join that list.

Why does it matter what my healer, if I have one, is doing? You don't even acknowledge my point of being FORCED to attack a DK, because you can't stay on the healer. The reason you don't see an issue is because most melee have grown to accept this and just attack the DK.

I won't even talk about 1vs1, the game will never be balanced around it so it isn't worth mentioning.

Your trinket argument is lacking, there is no need to trinket a mortal strike as it does not effect anything but your heals, same with wound poison. Bladestorm aggro? lol? Just get out of the way. Silences? I always thought they should be countered by a trinket(not school lock outs after an interrupt, but silences yes). I actually never said trinket should work against DG, I just said it has no counter.

[WrathFW]

I would just like to put it forward that I have consumed a whole bottle of Morgan's Spiced (house party, don't ask) before this post.

To the post at hand. There seems to be quite a lot of arguments for and against DG in this post, which is to be expected. I however feel that it is a fair ability. (if this is split badly it is due to alcohol. My bad, I apologise)

1. We need this ability to gain range. Yes, CoI gives us a few seconds to close someone down. But when we get close and get stunned or slowed: shadowfury/fear, Frost Nova/Deep Freeze [the mage stun, can't quite remember the name], blind, fear [warrior], roots/cyclone, fear [priest], HoJ, CoI/Pet stun, Scatter shot/freezing trap.

I know this isn't perfect and you will likely argue that a DK can trinket a lot of these. However correct me if I am wrong, but most of these have a short cooldown and if they could not do anything after trinketing these they would, please forgive the language, be fucked without being able to bring the target to them(DK's that is).

Some people argue that CoI is OP becuase it is not subject to DR, which might have an argument (which I am not commenting on so please don't rate me on that alone), however I feel that combined with DG it is the only way to combat some specs: A rogue with CloS can only be caught with it, a mage can only be beaten with DG (without it I wouldn't have a chance), a druid needs as much CoI and DG as I can give to keep the bastard in range of me - even then I can't nuke since I have no frost runes for SS, I can only touch a hunter when I am smart enough to use DG after he has used disengage otherwise I'm in trouble, same again for a lock [if I am not on his 'blink' point, which I generally try to be on] or seduce, paladin with BoF or HoJ up - basically a lot of classes have a way of breaking free.

An argument to this is that we 'only have to use trinket or Lichborne', but think about that sentence. To counterract just one small ability that many classes have without speccing for it I need to use my trinket or my SPECCED anti-cc ability. Most of the abilites(of the class I am trying to kill) have a small cooldown, or other cooldown that also helps, that allows them to get away. I am not saying I need a buff or anything but I am saying DG is not the thing to remove. If you did remove it you would give most (if not all) the ability to kite DK's around until they are dead. I don't use DG willy nilly. I use it out of necessity. I honestly laugh at people in BG's who charge in and use DG right away because it is, frankly, stupid. DG isn't OP. The only reason people think it is, is because you meet people who know when and how to use it. Against a DK who uses it early you can LOL all over them and you think "amagad they are easy" meet one who knows how to use Strangulate and DG and Stun all at the same time and you complain. It is exactly the same (in mage terms) as using Deep Freeze followed by Imp. CS followed by FN and then Cold Snap and the same again - what a poor bastard you would be if hit by all that (Mages please don't flame me - I'm not a mage and that has come from small experience and looking at the mage tree). Ofc there is also the stunlock which everyone hates, the Warrior charge-stun-MS-runaway-intercept-stun-Bladestorm-MS-pewpew etc. It is all about a player knowing their class.

I play a DK in PvP and sometimes I don't even use DG. I use it on Druids. I use it to peel off a healer. I use it on rogues. I'm not saying that is just it, but just a few scenarios where I will always use it. DG doesn't need a nerf. Maybe the survivability needs a nerf - in fact if I got a survivability nerf I wouldn't compain one tiny bit. I know I can survive a ridiculous amount of burst - more than any other class other than MAYBE a healer class. I also know that it needs to be changed since I can start a fight with ANY warrior and END the fight with 100% health.

Please think about what you are complaining about and focus on the correct problem. DG is not the problem. Survivability may well be it. AMZ/AMS/IBF/BS/UA/DP/RT/FP/DS (Anti-magic zone, anti-magic shield, Icebound Fortitude, Bone Shield, Unbreakable Armour, Death Pact, Rune Tap, Frost Presence, death strike) are all abilities (although most specced) that keep us alive far longer than is normally possible. Think about this before you decide to QQ us into the ground because we have ONE ability that pulls you into range. It is very much a situational ability, compared to warriors who can charge twice which also almost removes the worry of the cooldown on either ability.

Once again I apologise for the horrendous arrangement and grammer and/or spelling of this particular post, and the time at which it is posted, and I hope that you will look at it for it's merits rather than flame me for utter nonsense.

Please feel free to comment further on this,

Yours FAITHFULLY,

Wrath/Runé - Frostwhisper EU

[Abolishment]

Why does it matter what my healer, if I have one, is doing? You don't even acknowledge my point of being FORCED to attack a DK, because you can't stay on the healer. The reason you don't see an issue is because most melee have grown to accept this and just attack the DK.

I won't even talk about 1vs1, the game will never be balanced around it so it isn't worth mentioning.

Then essentially, you're complaining that the Death Knight can pull you off of their partner so you don't kill him, but you don't think your partner should be doing anything to help you?
It's team-based combat for a reason.
Let's look at it like this. Rock/Paper/Scissors. You are Scissors. Death Knight is Rock. You are trying to kill Paper, when Rock gets in your way. Instead of complaining that Scissors should be able to kill Paper while completely ignoring Rock, you should be getting your own Paper, or another Scissors. Or a Rock to occupy their Rock so you have breathing room to deal with their Paper.

2v1 will never be balanced. Until you realize that your partner has to help you win matches, you'll always call for a nerf on abilities that give you trouble.

Your trinket argument is lacking, there is no need to trinket a mortal strike as it does not effect anything but your heals, same with wound poison. Bladestorm aggro? lol? Just get out of the way. Silences? I always thought they should be countered by a trinket(not school lock outs after an interrupt, but silences yes). I actually never said trinket should work against DG, I just said it has no counter.

Getting out of the way of an equal, if not faster target, who is immune to stuns, snares, silences, fears, and anything else that could possibly give you a moment's reprieve? It's a valid point. On non-healer teams like Rogue/Mage, a well-timed Bladestorm is the match ender.

My 'trinket argument' is only lacking because you are overvaluing mobility and undervaluing efficiency and longevity. Maybe it was my mistake to assume you were talking about high-end PvP, where matches last longer than a minute, and mana efficiency is a real concern. A mortal strike does many things. You essentially need twice as much healing to restore the same amount of damage. You need twice as much mana to cast twice as many heals, and you need twice as much time. You have half as much time to top of your partner/yourself before he/you gets bursted down, so in effect, it's almost like any enemy with a Mortal Strike effect in a game lasting longer than a few seconds, does twice as much damage.

As I said. You will always have a problem with Death Grip as long as you value mobility over efficiency. At higher ratings and in future seasons, you will need to rely on your partner if you want to survive.

[Shuntenzatu]

Having deathgrip be a Trainer skill instead of a talented skill is retarded...its easily the most OP move in the game.
- its damn hard to escape a DK with countless ways to slow you when he can just pull you right back

it'd be like if rogues all got to have shadowstep with out having to spend a lot of talent points in sub. to get it.

/end QQ

having shapeshifting be a trainer skill instead of a talented skill is retarded...its easily the most OP move in the game.
- its damn hard to capture a druid with countless ways to heal himself when he can just break the slow and run away

it'd be like if mages had no cd on blink

/end QQ

[Acolimitzi]

Then essentially, you're complaining that the Death Knight can pull you off of their partner so you don't kill him, but you don't think your partner should be doing anything to help you?
It's team-based combat for a reason.
Let's look at it like this. Rock/Paper/Scissors. You are Scissors. Death Knight is Rock. You are trying to kill Paper, when Rock gets in your way. Instead of complaining that Scissors should be able to kill Paper while completely ignoring Rock, you should be getting your own Paper, or another Scissors. Or a Rock to occupy their Rock so you have breathing room to deal with their Paper.

2v1 will never be balanced. Until you realize that your partner has to help you win matches, you'll always call for a nerf on abilities that give you trouble.Getting out of the way of an equal, if not faster target, who is immune to stuns, snares, silences, fears, and anything else that could possibly give you a moment's reprieve? It's a valid point. On non-healer teams like Rogue/Mage, a well-timed Bladestorm is the match ender.

My 'trinket argument' is only lacking because you are overvaluing mobility and undervaluing efficiency and longevity. Maybe it was my mistake to assume you were talking about high-end PvP, where matches last longer than a minute, and mana efficiency is a real concern. A mortal strike does many things. You essentially need twice as much healing to restore the same amount of damage. You need twice as much mana to cast twice as many heals, and you need twice as much time. You have half as much time to top of your partner/yourself before he/you gets bursted down, so in effect, it's almost like any enemy with a Mortal Strike effect in a game lasting longer than a few seconds, does twice as much damage.

As I said. You will always have a problem with Death Grip as long as you value mobility over efficiency. At higher ratings and in future seasons, you will need to rely on your partner if you want to survive.

Have my healer help me not get pulled away? You keep ignoring my point, you are ignorant. Let me spell it out for you again even though I have said it exactly the same way every time.

Death Grip forces melee to attack the DK, and not their healer.

Bladestorm should never be a "match ender" vs mage/rogue you show complete lack of understanding of either class by saying it is. Rogues can Evasion, Sprint away, and Feint. Mages can Ice Block or Blink. And you assume either one is stupid enough to be caught in the same bladestorm in the first place. If you are ever having trouble with bladestorm then you "don't understand high level pvp". Dish out more personal attacks and avoid my points more, please. It is working out brilliantly.

Please tell me how to effectively attack a healer as a melee DPS with a DK as their partner. I doubt you can, because there really is no way to do this.

[mosene]

"Every single melee class has a way of closing the gap and keeping you in melee. DKs aren't the best at it. Rogues have to spec into shadow step because they can stealth up to you and start in melee, then sprint after you while slowing you with poisons. "

And can u pls also explain how can a shaman get out of zerg with a 5 second pulse on a totem that can be 1 shooted or is the wolf able to get out of slows?... or is the shaman able to remove all snare efects and stuns when he is iceblocked other way than using insignia.... and guess what he is a hybrid mele class just like you.... and don't put into consideration the nova totem because it has a 3 sec implosion time before it can stun you...... oh and there is more... All this are TALENTED SKILLS for them to have those effects.... jezz you guys are qqing too much ....

[Ghul]

basically dks got greater burst than retpaladins with more survivability like runetap and many short-cd shieldwalls. in addition theyve got an gap closer wich can also be used to save your healer from an execute, no its not on par with charge, its much better... you can also deathgrip someone out of los of his healer and then simply burst him down with 2 8k frostrike crits. in addition to the great burst and the gap closer and the surv-ability dks got an short-cooldown interrupt a silence and a pet to stop healer from drinking while you arent attacking them yourself. i know the pet is only "permanent" as unholy but in addition to this as unholy wour pet can be summoned with an instant cast on a very short cd, thus is superior to the other pet-classes.

i dont know where you are assuming that dks dont need nerfs, but i think its only "noos dont want to be nerfed"-QQ and id also say many of you were posting "yum pala tears taste goooooood" when vindication got nerfed. i wont say the same thing to the dk-qq though, that would be on the same low lvl like you are.

hafe fun with being toned down, like the retpaladins (meaning youll be toned down until you cant kill healers anymore without assistance, thats going to be great no?).

[WrathFW]

I apologise for another post in so short a time as my other epic post. I have seen arguments now (and I didn't see them, or notice them before maybe) that having a DK as a partner to a healer is OP. But I still disagree that the ability is OP. A warrior charge stuns I believe, and they can fear, a rogue can blind, a pala can stun and other classes have other CC's. A healer can fear (priest), stun (Paladin), Root/CC (Druid) - the only healer I feel sorry for is a Shaman. In regards to taking the dps off of the DK's healer we have Sprint (breaks slow effects - if used correctly [as in after the DG]), Ret pala can stun the healer and use BoF to get back on the healer, Druid can shift form and sprint back to the healer, Mages are in range most of the time anyway (but have blink etc ofc), Lock can fear/charm and then get back to dpsing target - there are a lot of ways to counter this small inconvenience.

Blizzard didn't make the game so that you could take down a healer by yourself with someone else trying to stop you. With someone actively trying to STOP you killing their healer I think it should be impossible to take down a healer. So arguing that "DG is OP because it doesn't let me go pew pew on a healer without interruption" is stupid because you would never get that situation in any bracket ANYWAY. Someone will ALWAYS have a way to break your nuke on the target providing they pay attention. DG again isn't the problem in any way.

I don't understand how people are complaining about how it stops their chain of attack when SO MANY CLASSES have a way of stopping you killing the healer if they so wanted to - maybe this is me misunderstanding the problem but I don't think it is (rerfer to my previous post for possible confusions)

Wrath/Runé Frostwhisper EU

[Ghul]

palastun-cd 40 secs deathgrip-cd 30secs. in addition dg has a range of 30m. palastunrange 10m and glyphed 15m. in addition the healer that the paladin was attacking wont have a snare on him, so getting back to the healer as a retpaladin takes at least 10-15 seconds, thats the time youre stopping a ret from attacking your healer while otherwise the retpaladin cant stop you from attacking his healer. in addition stun and repentance can be dispelled, so if your are running the common prot-holypala/dk combo youll also have some dispell at hand, rendering the retpala-"cc"(rofl) totally useless. plz stop comparing rets with dks k? the difference in utility, snares interrupts and silences is way too big to even see them in the same picture, its ridiculous....

[Jerazznor]

The problem with DG is that in the hands of a competent player it is basically the most devastating tool in the game. DG is THE best peel. A good interrupt. A way to get a melee out of LoS of his healer. A way to bring people into your burst (perfect with rogues and rets). When combined with CoI + the talented snares there is NO option for for the melee to go on in melee/healer vs DK+healer. Between CoI spam and DGs the DK can basically peel all day and continue to beat on whoever he wants.

[Abolishment]

Have my healer help me not get pulled away? You keep ignoring my point, you are ignorant. Let me spell it out for you again even though I have said it exactly the same way every time.

Death Grip forces melee to attack the DK, and not their healer.

Bladestorm should never be a "match ender" vs mage/rogue you show complete lack of understanding of either class by saying it is. Rogues can Evasion, Sprint away, and Feint. Mages can Ice Block or Blink. And you assume either one is stupid enough to be caught in the same bladestorm in the first place. If you are ever having trouble with bladestorm then you "don't understand high level pvp". Dish out more personal attacks and avoid my points more, please. It is working out brilliantly.

Please tell me how to effectively attack a healer as a melee DPS with a DK as their partner. I doubt you can, because there really is no way to do this.

Well seeing as how you're hiding behind a veil of anonymity, you won't acknowledge what your healer is, what your comp, rating, strategy or problems aside from Death Grip are.

I have a feeling that just like the rogue from earlier, you don't have many problems against teams that do not include Death Knights. That would be, what people who understand class balance call, a "counter-composition".

It means "GG Scissors, you found Rock. Sucks to be you, enjoy destroying Paper." There's a reason teams at the top generally have a 50% win/loss ratio on competitive battlegroups- no one class combo should be able to defeat all others.

No one's taking Death Grip out of the game because you refuse to work around it, or your healer doesn't pull his weight.

You have made your point. I've tried to make mine. Good day, sir.

The problem with DG is that in the hands of a competent player it is basically the most devastating tool in the game. DG is THE best peel. A good interrupt. A way to get a melee out of LoS of his healer. A way to bring people into your burst (perfect with rogues and rets). When combined with CoI + the talented snares there is NO option for for the melee to go on in melee/healer vs DK+healer. Between CoI spam and DGs the DK can basically peel all day and continue to beat on whoever he wants.

Everyone has good tools that are unmatched in usefulness. It's been stated many times in this thread that just because Death Grip is different, doesn't mean it's overpowered, or in need of nerfs. They still have no Mortal Strike, their damage is severely reduced against opponents with Abolish Disease/Cleansing Totem, when Death Grip is down, they're still kitable. A Death Knight in Entangling Roots has one chance every 25 seconds to try and catch a Druid. Without assistance, they will fail in that attempt. Counter classes, countering abilities. Learn to adapt, or accept the loss with humility.

[TwistedPower]

Death Grip is NOT on par but is better in pvp then charge or intercept or shadow step becuase:
1. Pulling the target can lead to that target to be out of LOS of healer.
2. Pulling the target into traps/obsticles. ie, hunter traps, the fire in orgrimar arena.

However without deathgrip, DK's would just get kited, becuase even though they can slow you. if you slow them then they will never catch up to you. AND it is NOT OP becuase there are plenty of things you can do to get away after the deathgrip.

Also its realy only OP vs the gimped casters such as eleshamen, lock. This is becuase those classes dont have the escape moves and varient of CC of say for example a mage. Anyother class has plenty of counters for chains of ice that comes with the deathgrip. If you dont know what they are, or if you think they dont, then your just plain stupid. Please read up on your class before you post again.

[Acolimitzi]

Well seeing as how you're hiding behind a veil of anonymity, you won't acknowledge what your healer is, what your comp, rating, strategy or problems aside from Death Grip are.

I have a feeling that just like the rogue from earlier, you don't have many problems against teams that do not include Death Knights. That would be, what people who understand class balance call, a "counter-composition".

It means "GG Scissors, you found Rock. Sucks to be you, enjoy destroying Paper." There's a reason teams at the top generally have a 50% win/loss ratio on competitive battlegroups- no one class combo should be able to defeat all others.

No one's taking Death Grip out of the game because you refuse to work around it, or your healer doesn't pull his weight.

You still do not acknowledge my points, but instead dance around vague analogies that help nothing. You fail to even use logic. When Melee + ANYTHING are faced against DK + Healer. you HAVE TO attack the DK. Attacking the healer is not an option(because of Death Grip), and you can not deny this(this is why you keep ignoring the point). I doubt you know high level play, because if you did you would know what I say is true. Now if you can actually respond to this point with logic, that would be great. But I assume you will just continue on dodging my only point (Melee + anything vs DK + Healer, Melee is forced to attack the DK).

And please, tell me when I said "remove DG from the game". I never said this, I only said it needs a longer CD, or shorter range to give Melee + anything more than one option while facing DK + healer

[Drooid]

Stop comparing Deathgrip to Charge! The only similarity is getting closer to the target.

But in arena, there is a big difference between charging headfirst into a target [and possibly their partner] and DG'ing someone back to you and your teammate. DG has a much more strategic advantage than charge. Comparing the 2 is just stupid.

I won't QQ about nerfing Deathgrip. If they were going to nerf it, it would have been done a long time ago, it's been in the game far too long for them to nerf it to the ground, hell, look at pali bubble, been in the game for over 4 years and people have complained about that FAR longer than a dk's DG.

[chrion]

Grip is fine, nerf there snares a bit.