Rules all random PuGs should (try) to follow

[Alenko]

Given that there's been a lot of people running Heroics now that the Dungeon Finder system has been implemented, I figured I'd post these (somewhat) common sense rules to follow in PuGs.

These rules have been culled from a massive list of suggestions/basic ideas/etc., mostly from talking to people both in and out of Heroics.

1.) If you are not the tank, you don't pull! Even if you're wearing plate, or have bear form, if you're there as DPS, your job is to kill what the tank pulls, not to make the pull. The tank is the tank, and only the tank pulls. DKs, that also means NO DEATH GRIPPING!

2.) Be responsible for your actions! If the Tank dies, it's the Healer's fault. If the Healer dies, it's the Tank's fault. If DPS dies, it's their own damn fault for either over-aggroing, pulling, or standing in something they shouldn't have been.

• That notwithstanding, if DPS dies to anything that is out of their control, but is within the Healer's ability to control, it is the Healer's fault.

3.) Be realistic and fair about loot! No, Blizz's exclusionary system is not perfect, so fork it over if you won on greed because the Boomkin couldn't roll need on the cloth item.

• Also, nothing should be needed unless agreed upon beforehand (H CoS timed run drake, Skadi's mount), or it's an actual gear upgrade.
• Frozen Orbs don't count as upgrades, and just because your server rolls need on them, does not mean everyone else's servers do.

4.) Be aware of your party's capabilities! Tanks should not move faster than your healers can keep up. If they're at 75% mana, pull. If they're under 30%, stop and make them drink.

• DPS does not count, they can mana on the fly and suck it up.
• NO ONE should move faster than the tank, or assume that the tank is always ready to pick up your "oh shit I pulled haha gogogo" messes.

5.) Make sure you're capable!

• Tanks: 29-30k minimum unbuffed HP, 535 DEF minimum (540 is for raids), and make sure your "OH SHIT" buttons are where you can get at them.
• DPS: If you're not capable of doing at least 900 DPS, go run regulars until you get the gear. If you're in all iLv200 gear or better and you can't break 1.2k, find someone who can and get advice, because you're doing something wrong.
• Healers: I got nothing. Someone post some minimum healer requirements, I'll edit this back later.

6.) Know your role! The DF system tells you what you've been pulled for, so if you queue for Tank/DPS, or Heals/DPS, etc, it'll tell you what your role is. Don't queue for Tank/DPS and bitch when you're the only tank-capable class in the group. Yes, the queue for DPS sucks. Get over it.

7.) DON'T BE A DICK. I understand that the tank may not be as fast as you like, or some random DPS isn't doing as much damage as your TOGC/ICC geared toon(s), but try and remember that these are HEROICS. You may be here to badge farm, but others may be here to get geared.

8.) The 3 fastest queues in the game are Tanks & Healers to get into an instance, and the queue to replace a DPS. DPS should remember that they have an even bigger reason to behave, as you can be vote-kicked and replaced in seconds.


This list of rules is by no means complete, so fire away with your CCs, comments, QQs or suggestions.

All trolls will be filed in my personal box of people to point and laugh at.

(edited because I forgot typing 8 ) without the space makes a 8))

1) semi agree, if the heals and dps can keep up and the tank should be able to pull faster and he isn't, then pulling ahead of the tank to make him move faster is justified

2) agree here, except for the caveat, there's nothing in heroics you cant avoid in terms of dmg as a dps

3) I roll need because thats why my server rolls, and if you are gong to qq over 5g then seriously stop greeding and start needing (been needing on nethers since the start of BC and not stoping now because your server is dumb enough to let other people possibly ninja something of that (previous) importance)

4) agreed

5) disagree completely. I healed a 25k unbuffed dk with a Bloodied Arcanite Reaper (BoA 2her) and all that had to be done was some dps had to wait a couple seconds to start so they wouldn't over aggro. but other than that no wipes no deaths.

6) agreed

7) as should you rember they are heroics (in reference to the tank hp). the LFG system has Blizzards gear checking system built in to it (as do the vehicles in the siege of ulduar) and if you aren't in gear that is capable of doing the instance it will not que you for it. so the agruement "well you didn't have 22k health when H ToC was released" is null as it won't que the tank for it untill they have sufficient gear. outside of that agreed on capabilites (in terms of skill here not gear). if the tank isn't as experienced at chain pulling then dont try and force him.

8 ) ok?

edit: same problem with the 8 and )

[dyce09]

To OP:

Those rules are fairly stupid and generally supported by those who are there for gear (being new to the game, new to 80 and not there for the sole benefit of emblems, or Hilt).

Saying that tanks should only be pulling is also supporting newer (nub ?!) players. There are a lot of heroics where, as my hunter, I can kill a ranged (spell casting) target myself without the help of a tank. Why not let the tank grab the other couple adds and I can take care of this one myself. There are some mages that can do the same. (using mage as example because a RL friend does that when I tank and he's on his mage) There is no problem with having others pull. Especially if it's a rogue/hunter and they pull with MD. I do that all the time when the tank is too slow. Most of the time, the tank gets mad at me because he thinks like you. Since he's the tank it's his JOB to pull, well, I view it.. "if you're not going to, then I will". Keep the group going.

Telling people to not need anything unless discussed before hand is dumb. Blizzard put in that into the game as a tool to use to distribute loot quickly. Instead of typing /roll, then deciding who wins. It does that for you. As soon as the change was made to being able to trade bop items to other group members, I started needing everything that I even remotely wanted. (trash green drops are always greed/DE rolls). But any offspec gear or rare drops, I would need. Since there is no chance of someone else needing when I greed because I 'kind of' want the item. Saves myself from being ninja'd.

Having minimum requirements I do, however, agree with. People will say that a 20k tank can do heroics, which is true. They also can probably move through fairly easily too. The problem with a 20k tank is that if you are using the LFG system, you are potentially putting yourself into heroics that you can't tank, (toc and icc ones). Especially if you are grouped with an undergeared, fresh lvl 80, healer. Even with an 'overgeared' tank of 38k unbuffed doing original wotlk heroics, Ive grouped with healers that use 40-60% mana per pull because their mana pool isn't that big, their heals aren't that great, causing them to heal MORE. This would surely case potential wipes due to healer going oom mid fight and tank dying quickly.

Overall, the only 'rules' of cross server pugging you can enforce are the ones set out by Blizzards Terms and Conditions. Everyone will play as they want, within those guildlines. If you don't like it, then you make the necessary changes to avoid them OR deal with it.

[Arctanis]

- don't be stupid
- if you do a partial guild run of either of the hilt instances, don't lfg system pug a person and decide to not clear the instances, you are wasting their time
- kick the tank if hes got 30k or less hp
- kick the obviously just reached 80 demo lock thats pulling less than a thousand dps
- set the loot to group, not the crappy default need before greed in lfg system pugs (its really stupid that an elem shaman with ilvl 200 items cant need cloth er leather gear with insanely huge stat increases even when the group has all plate and melee dps (yes it has happened before, its just stupid))

Nothing wrong with most of what you said, but if you get Heroics like Gundrak or VH there is no need to kick the tank for having less than 30K HP (Dont forget how long you tend to wait for the instance to pop because of the lack of tanks now) I would go as far to say that being nice to the tanks should be a general rule.
As for the freshly dinged 80s, well it would make sense that they hop into heroics seeing as it is logically the next place to turn to for gearing up.

[dyce09]

1) semi agree, if the heals and dps can keep up and the tank should be able to pull faster and he isn't, then pulling ahead of the tank to make him move faster is justified

2) agree here, except for the caveat, there's nothing in heroics you cant avoid in terms of dmg as a dps

3) I roll need because thats why my server rolls, and if you are gong to qq over 5g then seriously stop greeding and start needing (been needing on nethers since the start of BC and not stoping now because your server is dumb enough to let other people possibly ninja something of that (previous) importance)

4) agreed

5) disagree completely. I healed a 25k unbuffed dk with a Bloodied Arcanite Reaper (BoA 2her) and all that had to be done was some dps had to wait a couple seconds to start so they wouldn't over aggro. but other than that no wipes no deaths.

6) agreed

7) as should you rember they are heroics (in reference to the tank hp). the LFG system has Blizzards gear checking system built in to it (as do the vehicles in the siege of ulduar) and if you aren't in gear that is capable of doing the instance it will not que you for it. so the agruement "well you didn't have 22k health when H ToC was released" is null as it won't que the tank for it untill they have sufficient gear. outside of that agreed on capabilites (in terms of skill here not gear). if the tank isn't as experienced at chain pulling then dont try and force him.

8 ) ok?

edit: same problem with the 8 and )

I like almost everything about your post except for the bolded part. I cannot believe there is a gear check prior to being put into an instance. Not a couple days ago, I did random to HoR and the healer had 15k mana, with probably close to 7-8 epics. The rest were blues, (with I think a green trinket). Now, I'm not saying this guy was an automatic failure because he was a priest and from all the classes out there, priest is the one I know the least about. (in terms of pve healing - know them well in pvp) We did the first couple waves, (fortunately the dps was really good as well as the tank). So minimal damage was tank, but as the groups got bigger and the priest wasn't able to regen mana fast enough between fights. We eventually wiped because he went oom. Unfortunetly, non of the dps had healing abilities (hunter(me), rogue, mage). We did eventually kick the priest and find a new healer (shaman) which we then finished it, no wipes.

Now, I'm not sure if this was a result of him specifically queing for HoR or using the LFG but I have heard that whole "LFG does gear checks" and I have had situations where it doesn't seem like they do. Leading me to believe it's lies.

[Alenko]

I like almost everything about your post except for the bolded part. I cannot believe there is a gear check prior to being put into an instance. Not a couple days ago, I did random to HoR and the healer had 15k mana, with probably close to 7-8 epics. The rest were blues, (with I think a green trinket). Now, I'm not saying this guy was an automatic failure because he was a priest and from all the classes out there, priest is the one I know the least about. (in terms of pve healing - know them well in pvp) We did the first couple waves, (fortunately the dps was really good as well as the tank). So minimal damage was tank, but as the groups got bigger and the priest wasn't able to regen mana fast enough between fights. We eventually wiped because he went oom. Unfortunetly, non of the dps had healing abilities (hunter(me), rogue, mage). We did eventually kick the priest and find a new healer (shaman) which we then finished it, no wipes.

Now, I'm not sure if this was a result of him specifically queing for HoR or using the LFG but I have heard that whole "LFG does gear checks" and I have had situations where it doesn't seem like they do. Leading me to believe it's lies.

there is one exception for it. if you JUST hit 80 and you look at the specific que list it will tell you you can't que for (and wont random que you for) ToC and the ICC 5 mans. BUT if you have 4 geared buddies carry you through them, then you can specificly que or get random qued for them. I know this cause I had a toon hit 80 2 weeks ago (just before 3.3 release) and when I was looking at my locked instance on him I noticed it had the locked symbol on all the ICC 5 mans and the ToC 5 man in the specific dungeon que list when I knew I hadnt dont them. so I hovered my cursor over them and it said (no joke) "You must obtain better gear to que for this instance."

now like I said you can still do the instance the old fashion way (by walking in) but queing for it you cant do them till you either get
1) gear
2) dothe instance with freinds by not queing for it at which point it unlocks you and allows you to que for it

[dyce09]

there is one exception for it. if you JUST hit 80 and you look at the specific que list it will tell you you can't que for (and wont random que you for) ToC and the ICC 5 mans. BUT if you have 4 geared buddies carry you through them, then you can specificly que or get random qued for them. I know this cause I had a toon hit 80 2 weeks ago (just before 3.3 release) and when I was looking at my locked instance on him I noticed it had the locked symbol on all the ICC 5 mans and the ToC 5 man in the specific dungeon que list when I knew I hadnt dont them. so I hovered my cursor over them and it said (no joke) "You must obtain better gear to que for this instance."

now like I said you can still do the instance the old fashion way (by walking in) but queing for it you cant do them till you either get
1) gear
2) dothe instance with freinds by not queing for it at which point it unlocks you and allows you to que for it

Oh, all right. Thanks for the clarification. He must of already done it before then. Being a priest, he could of been shadow or something. Gone through with buddies before. It still semi stands though, for the people to say that "you won't get people undergeared". There is a way you can get them, so sometimes it's out of your control, which is what gets me to agree with people who kick them or leave the group themselves. I've done that before.

[urdaddy]

To all the people saying it's okay to pull for the tank, people like you are quick to go on my /ignore so I don't have to group with you again.

I tank, wife heals, our queue's are instant.
I heal, wife tanks, our queue's are instant.
When someone other than us (depending on who's tanking) pulls, they better be able to kill what they just pulled, without heals.

We've been playing MMO's for 10 years, starting with EQ, and it has never been considered good technique for the dps to pull or "set the pace". First and foremost, the healers mana is what determines the pull rate.

I do however welcome a DK deathgriping a caster over to the group I'm tanking.

The problems arise because a large number of the player base are adults. And adults cannot always stay glued to the keyboard. If My wife or I or someone else has to step away from thier keyboard for 10 seconds because of an emergency or semi-emergency or even a quick bio break, then the arrogant dps pulling just wiped the group.

It's bad group / raid etiquette and I guarentee you don't get away with it in serious raiding guilds raids, because it's bad etiquette.

It's akin to me queueing as a tank, then refusing to do so, remaining in my dps set and running the dungeon. To hell with actually performing the role that's expected / required of me.

If you don't like the way a tank is playing, roll one yourself. Then you have no complaints.

8)

[Sneakysnado@Gmail.com]

3.) Be realistic and fair about loot! No, Blizz's exclusionary system is not perfect, so fork it over if you won on greed because the Boomkin couldn't roll need on the cloth item.

• Also, nothing should be needed unless agreed upon beforehand (H CoS timed run drake, Skadi's mount), or it's an actual gear upgrade.
• Frozen Orbs don't count as upgrades, and just because your server rolls need on them, does not mean everyone else's servers do.

Too bad you can only trade conjured items! Maybe you should learn about the LFG system before you make rules about it, k thaaaanks.

[urdaddy]

Too bad you can only trade conjured items! Maybe you should learn about the LFG system before you make rules about it, k thaaaanks.

You sir, are wrong.

I personally traded a cloth item to a Moonkin from a different server.

Thanks for playing.

[Sneakysnado@Gmail.com]

You sir, are wrong.

I personally traded a cloth item to a Moonkin from a different server.

Thanks for playing.

Uh huh, sure ya did.

[Dethday]

Uh huh, sure ya did.

Teeef ... /facepalm

Holy crap you're stupid.

EDIT: Also wrong.

[Hethor]

3.) Be realistic and fair about loot! No, Blizz's exclusionary system is not perfect, so fork it over if you won on greed because the Boomkin couldn't roll need on the cloth item.

• Also, nothing should be needed unless agreed upon beforehand (H CoS timed run drake, Skadi's mount), or it's an actual gear upgrade.
• Frozen Orbs don't count as upgrades, and just because your server rolls need on them, does not mean everyone else's servers do.

(edited because I forgot typing 8 ) without the space makes a 8))

Why would you pass over a green? I just vendor them even if someone needs it, if they're smart enough to find this new dungeon tool they can run instances and get BLUES like the rest of us had to do when naxxramas was hard.

[dyce09]

To all the people saying it's okay to pull for the tank, people like you are quick to go on my /ignore so I don't have to group with you again.

I tank, wife heals, our queue's are instant.
I heal, wife tanks, our queue's are instant.
When someone other than us (depending on who's tanking) pulls, they better be able to kill what they just pulled, without heals.

We've been playing MMO's for 10 years, starting with EQ, and it has never been considered good technique for the dps to pull or "set the pace". First and foremost, the healers mana is what determines the pull rate.

I do however welcome a DK deathgriping a caster over to the group I'm tanking.

The problems arise because a large number of the player base are adults. And adults cannot always stay glued to the keyboard. If My wife or I or someone else has to step away from thier keyboard for 10 seconds because of an emergency or semi-emergency or even a quick bio break, then the arrogant dps pulling just wiped the group.

It's bad group / raid etiquette and I guarentee you don't get away with it in serious raiding guilds raids, because it's bad etiquette.

It's akin to me queueing as a tank, then refusing to do so, remaining in my dps set and running the dungeon. To hell with actually performing the role that's expected / required of me.

If you don't like the way a tank is playing, roll one yourself. Then you have no complaints.

8)

1) Previous mmo gaming cannot be used to compare something specific as this topic
2) If you want players to NOT pull whilst you have quickly stepped out for a pee or something, state at beginning of raid that you are someone who doesn't stay at their keyboard for the 15mins you are in the heroic for.
3) If you're in a raid, of course dps aren't pulling because IF they get once, they'll most likely die.
4) Queing as a tank means you are the character that 'tanks'. There is nothing about 'pulling'. Back in the day of CCing, a Mage was a common 'puller' sometimes when they pull poly pull.
5) Yes, if a dps pulls and you (or your wife) are heals, then don't heal them, if they pull and EXPECT to get heals to not die, let them die. I pull sometimes KNOWING I won't die. (Generally, I JUST pull with MD to the tank when he decides to stand there at the back)

[Cpttrips]

OP i agree on most.

but 30k unbuffed tanks :P

and 900dps 90% of the server can pull that off on a lvl 75-79 or lower

[Eurytos]

Why would you pass over a green? I just vendor them even if someone needs it, if they're smart enough to find this new dungeon tool they can run instances and get BLUES like the rest of us had to do when naxxramas was hard.

Naxx is hard.


















ok at 60 it was hard. WotLK Naxx was never hard. Ever.

[evan_s]

Too bad you can only trade conjured items! Maybe you should learn about the LFG system before you make rules about it, k thaaaanks.

You can trade drops from that dungeon that the person was eligible to loot as long as you are still in the instance together. The patch notes even specifically said you could do this.

[urdaddy]

1) Previous mmo gaming cannot be used to compare something specific as this topic
2) If you want players to NOT pull whilst you have quickly stepped out for a pee or something, state at beginning of raid that you are someone who doesn't stay at their keyboard for the 15mins you are in the heroic for.
3) If you're in a raid, of course dps aren't pulling because IF they get once, they'll most likely die.
4) Queing as a tank means you are the character that 'tanks'. There is nothing about 'pulling'. Back in the day of CCing, a Mage was a common 'puller' sometimes when they pull poly pull.
5) Yes, if a dps pulls and you (or your wife) are heals, then don't heal them, if they pull and EXPECT to get heals to not die, let them die. I pull sometimes KNOWING I won't die. (Generally, I JUST pull with MD to the tank when he decides to stand there at the back)

There's no way around bad etiquette. And yes, MMO experience DOES indeed translate. Most of the terminology, acronyms and grouping / raiding "basics" and etiquitte was born via previous MMOs. (Not to mention that most MMO's have the same basic group make-up, tank/dps-CC/heals).

The example you povided about "sheep pulling" was always done when the tank was ready.

My first toon rolled was a hunter (at launch), still have him. I learned the game as DPS, I raided and grouped as dps for years. I still never pulled before the tank was "ready". My wife played and still has her mage. She never sheep pulled until the tank told her, "go".

Again, you use bad examples / scenarios. Some people have children and if they are young children, you never know when they need immediate assistance at a moments notice.

Pulling as a dps, without the tanks approval is bad practice, as in not best practice. It's sloppy, bad play technique and again bad etiquette. You, it appears have never tanked, atleast not seriously. Because when you do, you take it personal when you lose aggro or a mob is running loose or someone in the group is taking a beating, because as a tank that's YOUR responsibility.

I encourage the dps that does this to continue to do it, so I can weed them out faster.

[Catarra]

If you are a dps and you pull if I'm tanking you die. Unless you're helping me out by trixing or md'ing you don't touch my mobs until I have them under control (normally takes 2 seconds on one consecrate, there's no need to get all itchy to dps). Dps doesn't set the pace, the tank does. And if you don't like the pace your tank is setting then get a different group lol, it's not hard. I normally warn the dps up front though just to be fair. I've been known to DI a healer and let them learn their lesson though. But then again I'm a chainpulling fiend and I don't like having to stop to rez the dead dps :P

[rantus]

Too bad you can only trade conjured items! Maybe you should learn about the LFG system before you make rules about it, k thaaaanks.

Too bad you can trade items with the 2h trade timer on, even though its cross server.Maybe you should learn about the LFG system before you make dumb points about it, k thaaaanks.

A group I was in traded items before I'm sure its possible.

[Deleted]

1.) If you are not the tank, you don't pull! Even if you're wearing plate, or have bear form, if you're there as DPS, your job is to kill what the tank pulls, not to make the pull. The tank is the tank, and only the tank pulls. DKs, that also means NO DEATH GRIPPING!

1: If you take too long to pull (When the healers mana bar is near full and you haven't said BRB) I will tricks, sprint and FoK spam to make your arse hurry up. Also, for my poor little protadin with only 1 silence, it's lovely when DK's Death Grip at the appropriate time so I can get those damned mobs into my Consecration. (I'm thinking the 3rd pull in FoS is a perfect example here)

Well, that's the only thing I've really got something to comment on. Which makes the 1 kind of useless.


BTW, lol @ holier-than-thou guy below