[Priest] Talents & Glyph Discussion, version 2

[Kelesti]

Given the original topic was never formatted to be a sticky in the first place (only an afterthought), I decided to start a new one that doesn't require reading through more than 40 pages to come up with answers.

This is first, and foremost, a Discussion. A lot of this is opinionated, and in some cases may be flat out wrong. Bringing information and communication together is the point of our forums, especially our stickies. If you have something you'd like to add, it can definitely go here. It will also change as both content, and the voices of the community adapt and grow.


Just for the sake of simplicity, here's the revamped level 80 talent builds with glyphs, and explanations where possible.
This is a completely open discussion. The only point of this new guide is "having answers from clicking this link" more than anything, as well as being able to patch-date-stamp the ideas here.

Let's get started:
~Last update, 3.3.3
PvE
Shadow:
Given Shadow's focus as a damage dealer, it's pretty simple on its build.
Basic Shadow Build
Improved Spirit Tap offers roughly the same, if not more, mana return as Focused Mind does. But its increase in Spirit also equates to more damage done. Improved Vampiric Embrace is not carrying your healers, it (coupled with Dispersion) can let you live through damage that should've killed most people, otherwise. It also lets you act as a mobile Healing Stream totem, and the added utility shouldn't be overlooked.
Glyph of Dispersion offers more mana than Glyph of Shadow Word: Pain, as Pain takes nearly than a minute to even pay for itself. On certain fights, it allows you to be able to support yourself through extensive damage more frequently. These happen, and not just because "lol u must be bad". Glyph of Mind Sear is popular on some fights that you can actually use it as well.
4pc10 Shadow Variation
This is a spec I threw together, with the 4pc10 set bonus in mind for dropping Mind Blast from priority. Picked up a few fun utility talents, including an interrupt, Inner Focus for Divine Hymn (as needed, also works on Mind Flay).
~Disclaimer: I don't have the stats or latency suggestions that would be recommended for doing so, just the ideas being thrown out there. Be sure to read the shadow guides (or this post) for this information

Discipline
Standard Discipline Build
Variations include swapping points from Divine Fury into Spell Warding, specifically for most of ICC's spell damage fights (all except Saurfang?), and 1-2 points from Holy Specialization for Healing Focus, depending on if you run with a Holy Paladin that has Improved Concentration Aura or not.
Greater/Haste Discipline Build
Picking up more stat itemisation allows a shift from Flash heal to Greater Heal when needed, as well as tossing out a Prayer of Healing every now and then.

Both of these have an open third glyph. The Flash Heal glyph is not recommended for either, considering the mana cost of Flash Heal is not your problem, its the use of your other spells. If you find yourself tank healing in 10's, or moving frequently, Renew may be a prime choice for when you can't Shield and Mending's on cooldown. Otherwise, and most often in 25's, you should grab the Prayer of Healing glyph for some outgoing hasted support.

Holy
Standard Holy build
This build has room for three points, and one glyph. The first point is usually a toss up between Lightwell, Inner Focus, and the last point in Blessed Resilience. If your raid can click Lightwell, it's great. If not, then obviously it's a waste of a point. Inner Focus can be useful. But if you're only using it for Divine Hymn, it's a waste of a point. It needs to be used to make it useful. If not, just run with Blessed Resilience, and enjoy the extra mileage.
Most Holy Priests at this point in the game will stick the other two of those points into Body and Soul for added utility (as its usefulness really is only limited by your imagination), and their Discipline counterpart is doing more than just spamming shields frivolously.
Another option would be to put 2/5 into Empowered Healing for stronger Flash Heals, which is fine. 2/5 and 3/3 Blessed Resilience will always outweigh 5/5 Empowered, though, remember that. 1/2 Surge of Light is enough, and you should never run without the Guardian Spirit glyph.

Variations:
-2/2 Healing Focus is based on whether or not you have a Holy Paladin with Improved Concentration Aura or not. If you do, go with 1 point.
-Spell Warding vs Divine Fury is your call, depending on your preference.
-The last point of Holy Specialization (or possibly Spell Warding, if it's in your build) could be dropped for Desperate Prayer. It's not required by any means necessary, but a few priests (myself included) often find it a great button to push when needed (especially when all of the above are just filler talents anyways).
-A tank healing variant would have you dropping Surge of Light (and up to two points of Empowered Renew) to pick up Empowered Healing (2 points) and/or Inner Focus. This is recommended for two-healing 10 man hard modes, where you need to fill the gaps in tank damage as well as shift to raid damage at will.

The third glyph slot is open to either Renew or Prayer of Healing. Flash Heal's mana cost should not be your biggest drain, if you're casting it enough to make a difference on your bar, you should probably look at your playstyle.

Prayer Build
This build is a heavy-aoe specific build. You would not be casting Flash Heal at all, so Serendipity and Surge of Light are both considered "useless" talents here, thus dropped in favor of Mental Agility. Note: This is not a recommended build for anything with the exception of Aura Fights or Arthas, at high haste values.

[Kelesti]

PvP
Discipline:

Battle Ground Specs:
60/11 defensive Discipline build, with Improved Mana Burn.
Healing 54/17 with crit gear, to the point of living without a mana pool is better than dying with one. -- Domi
Smite variant, for added burst, 2 points to spare and a third glyph slot. Suggestion: Holy Reach for those points. -- Domi

Shadow:
Shadow PvP. Shadow Affinity is filler, and can be shuffled around but you need three points to go deeper. Glyphs are Mind Flay, Inner Fire, and Dispersion -- Harky

Holy:
(BG's count as PvP too!)
Smite Hybrid. Gearing haste, with the emphasis on blowing people up.


I'm going to leave these open to suggestions from someone who doesn't completely suck at PvP (Because like I say, I'm terrible. :P)

[llDemonll]

Just going to state a general thought here, if I'm banned for it then so be it.

But if the title is "Discussion" then

Locking thread, to run its replacement. Reading 40 pages with no defined answers is bad form. Bad Priest-Mods for not doing this sooner, bad! Oh wait...

Seems to be an "unlawful" reason to lock a thread. There was an ongoing discussion happening between people each time a new question was asked. When people have specific questions it's hard to sort through 40 pages or search for that exact question, so it's simply asked again. IMO that thread was very useful and I'm sad to see it locked and this one take it's place. I don't know, it's just the way I see it this is the exact same thread, except with you as the author (but at least it was locked as someone's question was answered, and not in the middle of the discussion).

Also, the 'Standard Build' for Holy should be without Desperate Prayer IMO, many of us priests don't use it and haven't considered it standard for some time now.

[Kelesti]

To start, no, there's no fear of posting that resulting in a ban. I just wanted to clean house a bit, and was hoping that discussion could be shifted here as a replacement thread. Most of the times, yes, they do ask the same question, and it's fine answering them. But it's also not fine according to our rules, in that if the question's in a post you generally should read said post to get your answer (using the terrible search feature *shudder*), rather than ask it again.

This is one of the reasons I absolutely hate the EJ forums. But, nonetheless, there just needed to be form to the first couple pages, and the ability to put things into context on a fresh thread (patch-date-stamp, for example) without having the next batch of posts be more than three major content patches behind helps people catch up.

And this:

Also, the 'Standard Build' for Holy should be without Desperate Prayer IMO, many of us priests don't use it and haven't considered it standard for some time now.

Is already something excellent to be adding to this thread.

[harky]

Closing old thread and opening new one to continue discussion without wading through 42 pages of comments from 6 months+ ago? Seems fine to me.

Anyway, as far as the Holy build, it is hard to call Desperate Prayer mandatory, but you're just as likely to see it as to not see it. It's Desperate Prayer vs crit or magic damage taken. Desperate Prayer typically wins, but it's filler either way. For throwing up a somewhat standard build using a talent calc I think it's fine. If you wanted to be more precise you'd need to use a chart method instead marking talents on a scale instead of needing a set number of points to get down a tree.

Really look at mandatory talents in the first 20 points of Holy though: 2/2 Healing Focus, 3/3 Imp Renew, 3/3 Inspiration, 2/2 Holy Reach. So 50% of your first 20 points in Holy are filler. 5% crit is certainly not mandatory, neither is .5 off GH, or 10% spelldamage reduction, or Desperate Plea. None of those are required talents, but you need 10 points split somehow between those 16 options.

On a related note: You could also take off 1 point of Blessed Resil from the standard build and it would still make sense. The first two points are in every solid build, but the last point is optional. There are some valid excuses for taking Inner Focus instead. And no, "I use it with Hymn," isn't valid in ICC. Not even valid in ToC unless you do loldoorstrategy.

[Kelesti]

If you wanted to be more precise you'd need to use a chart method instead marking talents on a scale instead of needing a set number of points to get down a tree.

For a Holy specific thread, possibly. Not for this, unfortunately.

On a related note: You could also take off 1 point of Blessed Resil from the standard build and it would still make sense. The first two points are in every solid build, but the last point is optional. There are some valid excuses for taking Inner Focus instead. And no, "I use it with Hymn," isn't valid in ICC. Not even valid in ToC unless you do loldoorstrategy.

I agree completely, and squeezed it out, rewriting the variations. Hope it still makes sense.

Also, shameful plug, PvP builds, anyone, anyone? I'll also take a better version of that 4pc10 Shadow build, or whatever else people can think of, just so long as it's not only me doing this. Needs to be a Priest-Community thing.

[Feigr]

Could you please explain why you think that 1/2 Surge of Light is enough? All evidence seems to indicate that this talent checks for crits on a per spell basis, which means that if you have 1/2 SoL it's gonna have a 25% proc chance, regardless of whether you just crit all 5 heals in a CoH.
This makes the second point just as good as the first.

[Frmercury]

Could you please explain why you think that 1/2 Surge of Light is enough? All evidence seems to indicate that this talent checks for crits on a per spell basis, which means that if you have 1/2 SoL it's gonna have a 25% proc chance, regardless of whether you just crit all 5 heals in a CoH.
This makes the second point just as good as the first.

You basically just quoted EJ. If you are taking 1/2 SoL there's no reason you shouldn't be taking 2/2 SoL. That second point is just as good as the first.

[Feigr]

You basically just quoted EJ. If you are taking 1/2 SoL there's no reason you shouldn't be taking 2/2 SoL. That second point is just as good as the first.

Well there is no reason not to have this info here as well.

[Frmercury]

Well there is no reason not to have this info here as well.

ofc, just giving backing to the quoted poster.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuZfE0cbMqihhcuAo
Is probably the most common I'll see walking around

and http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuZfE0cbMqihhduAo
Is very similar to what I see a lot of HM ICC Holy Priests walking around with

B&S variants of those two are also very popular.

[Domi]

I personally like going around with these specs in the BGs with the "shadow" pvp gear

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bxIbzhGiRcosfRtfVzI:Ao
Keeps you alive and usually you can last with the mana without meditation, better alive with no mana than in the graveyard waiting for ress.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bxcruhGiRcosbktbttobb:Au
And the offensive spec, sometimes dropping that Holy fire - Smite bomb is better choice than healing

[Kelesti]

Could you please explain why you think that 1/2 Surge of Light is enough? All evidence seems to indicate that this talent checks for crits on a per spell basis, which means that if you have 1/2 SoL it's gonna have a 25% proc chance, regardless of whether you just crit all 5 heals in a CoH.
This makes the second point just as good as the first.

The point is, Surge of Light is a low-priority spell that you cast while moving, if necessary.

If multiple people are taking damage, and you should be pushing Prayer to cover it, or Renew to cover further incoming damage maybe a Mending, etc. and you cast a Surge of Light just because it's there, you shouldn't (even though it does add Serendipity).

If you're not moving, Surge of Light reduces the chance of your next Flash Heal to crit by 100%, so it reduces both your Holy Concentration (SoL is not a regen talent) uptime, as well as your possible output from the spell, and the only time it makes a difference there is if your target would've died within a global.

Math on EJ has pointed to it having more uptime with 2/2, seeing it is like you said "per spell". But the second point is redundant, when it could be put to better use elsewhere in your actual healing output or utility build, instead of compulsively pushing it every time the buff comes up. That's why 1/2 Surge of Light is enough.

[Kelesti]

ofc, just giving backing to the quoted poster.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuZfE0cbMqihhcuAo
Is probably the most common I'll see walking around

and http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbuZfE0cbMqihhduAo
Is very similar to what I see a lot of HM ICC Holy Priests walking around with

B&S variants of those two are also very popular.

Apart from the 2/2 SoL, no Body and Soul, and Inner Focus (a lot of Priests don't even realise how much of a waste this is when they use it less than once per fight), I'm left asking: If you were to pick up 2/5 Empowered Healing, why would you drop points from Serendipity?

@Domi, thanks for those. They've gone up, but what glyphs you suggest for BG's for the first one?

[Domi]

@Domi, thanks for those. They've gone up, but what glyphs you suggest for BG's for the first one?

Penance - Inner fire and the third could be Pain suppression, PW:S or renew. I personally use PW:S or Renew since you can easily predict when that big bomb is coming for PS

As for the arena specs: since it depends heavily on setup and playstyle what you are going to pick, there really isn't one right spec. I use usually something like this when I'm trying out a new setup
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bxIbuhGiRcosfktfVzu:Aob

The variations go from dropping survivability for extra damage or dispelbotting, ie. I didn't really need meditation when I was playing 2s with a feral and a innervate - I could switch that stuff to some more offensive talents.

[harky]

You basically just quoted EJ. If you are taking 1/2 SoL there's no reason you shouldn't be taking 2/2 SoL. That second point is just as good as the first.

There's no normal reason to take 2/2 SoL and 1/2 SoL is optional. 1/2 SoL is taken because it gives you the option to cast an instant Flash Heal. This is useful for Renew based builds because you don't cast Flash Heal much at all, so you can save that SoL proc and use it when needed. In most normal fights you'll have right around 18 crit-capable spell hits every 10 seconds. With a 25% crit chance and a 25% proc chance that leaves you at a SoL proc every 16 spell hits, or about every 8.9 seconds. This means that with a low crit chance and 1/2 SoL, SoL will have a very high likelihood of being up when you need it.

'When you need it'? You only need to use a SoL proc in the following case: A single target will die if not instantly healed for ~6k. These cases are very rare and typically SoL usage becomes, "When you feel like it." Most SoL procs are used when the Priest feels like using it, instead of when it was actually needed. What 2/2 SoL does is takes the up-time from being up whenever you need it, to being up whenever you feel like it. If you're only using SoL when you need to use it, then 1/2 SoL is required, but 2/2 SoL is superfluous.

The other thing to look at is Flash Heal based builds. Now, however you feel about those builds isn't in question. I don't think they're strong builds either. 2/2 SoL is even worse for these builds. However, instead of being about when it's needed, it's about a healing loss. By taking Surge of Light in a Flash Heal based build you are intentionally lowering your output. SoL does not make Flash Heal free. The cost is critical chance. It does not reduce Flash Heals execute time, only its delivery time. This causes problems when helping on tanks because it forces healing gaps while reducing throughput and it causes problems when raid healing by stopping your heals for a minimum of two seconds. This is because you're casting a front-loaded heal before a back-loaded heal the the same execute time. So the instant heal lands at 1 second, followed by let's say a 1.25 second GCD, followed by a 1.25 second cast time before the next heal lands. You now have a 2.5 second gap between heals.

Now, you can argue that this is a non-issue because many instant spells are in the Priest toolbox and are just fine, but that misses the point entirely: A SoL Flash Heal is the smallest potential output heal a Priest can cast. If you are fully specialized in Flash Heal and cast a SoL Flash Heal, it will ave roughly one third of the output of a Renew even if Renew is completely untalented. Compare to Prayer of Mending and Circle of Healing which are two of the three highest healing spells Priests have per execute time.

So you wind up with the same old logic-
If you are a Renew based spec, then 1/2 SoL is a good optional talent, but 2/2 SoL is superfluous.
If you are a Flash Heal based spec, then any points in SoL will reduce your output.

*: One exception is Anub 25H where 2/2 SoL is recommended precisely because there will be targets at extremely low health that also should not be healed for a lot. In that special case 2/2 SoL Flash Heal based builds are quite good.

[Frmercury]

Apart from the 2/2 SoL, no Body and Soul, and Inner Focus (a lot of Priests don't even realise how much of a waste this is when they use it less than once per fight), I'm left asking: If you were to pick up 2/5 Empowered Healing, why would you drop points from Serendipity?

@Domi, thanks for those. They've gone up, but what glyphs you suggest for BG's for the first one?

Well I would say the hardest fight before LK HM is PP HM. You'll need to drop larger FH, but don't have the gap between hits for a non DF GH even with 3 stack 3/3 Serendipity. I'm just finding that a lot of Holy Priests working on HMs drop Serendipity.

Also to discount Inner Focus is... well... odd. An Inner Focused Divine Hymn can easily heal 100k+ in a ~6 second time frame (with no negative effect on your mana). Even if you don't use it even that once in an encounter the ability to do that much healing in that short a time is your most powerful healing tool as a Priest. Could you use Divine Hymn without Inner Focus to similar effect? Yes, but with the mechanics of Divine Hymn (namely that it chooses the lowest 3 people every tick) it favors healing Crit as the chance for overheal in near wipes is minimal.

[harky]

They're dropping Serendipity because they're never casting Flash Heal, but they're casting PoH frequently. You can freely drop SoL and Serendipity entirely for some fights because you'll never cast Flash Heal which makes both talents useless.

As far as Inner Focus Divine Hymn? Are you having mana problems? If so then that's weird. Now cast Divine Hymn without Inner Focus. It's just 25% crit, which means it's at best a 12.5% increase in healing on Divine Hymn. It's actually impossible for it to be 12.5% though, because that would require you to have 0% crit base. With 30% crit it's only a 10% gain. The point in dropping Inner Focus is that it's a very low mana regen talent and a very low throughput talent and we're not having the mana issues we had in the past. The best argument for taking it is that you use it nearly on cooldown with PoH, which makes it a marginally good longevity talent.

[Frmercury]

There's no normal reason to take 2/2 SoL and 1/2 SoL is optional....

...

*: One exception is Anub 25H where 2/2 SoL is recommended precisely because there will be targets at extremely low health that also should not be healed for a lot. In that special case 2/2 SoL Flash Heal based builds are quite good.

First let me say that the tank healing gap can be a concern, it's true. In the context of raid healing having the ability to have SoL available at any time for an instant heal is amazing. Do I care about maximizing the number that is HPS, or do I care about saving each and every person that dips low? Yeah, I don't care that SoL is an HPS loss, because it increases my ability to save people who might otherwise die without an instant heal. That's what I view my job as a healer is; stopping people from dieing.

[Frmercury]

They're dropping Serendipity because they're never casting Flash Heal, but they're casting PoH frequently...

...
The best argument for taking it is that you use it nearly on cooldown with PoH, which makes it a marginally good longevity talent.

I would argue that an extra 10% to your most powerful healing ability that is used only during the most crucial times in an encounter would be extremely important, so important that it could mean the difference between completing an encounter and failing it.

My 2c though.

[harky]

First let me say that the tank healing gap can be a concern, it's true. In the context of raid healing having the ability to have SoL available at any time for an instant heal is amazing. Do I care about maximizing the number that is HPS, or do I care about saving each and every person that dips low? Yeah, I don't care that SoL is an HPS loss, because it increases my ability to save people who might otherwise die without an instant heal. That's what I view my job as a healer is; stopping people from dieing.

The point here is that you already have an instant heal and then the usual misconception of 'saving lives'. Empowered Renew is already an instant heal, so all an SoL proc gives you is the difference between a non-crit Flash Heal and an Emp. Renew hit. Usually this is ~4k. Now what you'd really need to analyze is how many times an instant 4k health is required to save a person from dying. The answer is... very rarely. What you're looking at is a situation where someone is going to take damage that is 4k more than their current health. So if you're at 5k and there is an incoming hit of 9k and there is also not enough time to cast a normal Flash Heal then SoL will actually save a person. Otherwise what you have is a confirmation bias. You believe that SoL is needed to save someones life and then they don't die. You then claim that because of SoL you saved their life. As nice as that is it's a fallacy. You'd need to look at how much health they had and how much damage they took within that particular time-frame and see if SoL actually saved their life. Again it's the difference between something that is needed and something that feels good.

I would argue that an extra 10% to your most powerful healing ability that is used only during the most crucial times in an encounter would be extremely important, so important that it could mean the difference between completing an encounter and failing it.

My 2c though.

Again, is that 10% additional healing important? A non-crit is likely to bring people up enough to be safe and a crit is simply a little extra fluff. So if your argument as above is that the extra crit will save lives then it means with 30% base crit 45% of the people Hymn connects on are still in danger of death. Likely? Not so much.

Ultimately people tend to think about the whole 'saving lives' ideal and completely miss the fact that the main priority of raid healers is to stabilize the raid. By adding stability you're preventing the raid from ever being in enough danger that a life needs to be saved. A raid full of healers trying to save lives will be an unstable raid. You need raid healers who are dedicated to maximizing HPS in an effort to keep people out of danger. 1/2 SoL allows enough up-time to save lives when you actually need to save them with it. Inner Focus is optional at best though and ultimately the only consistent use of it is if you're using it to reduce mana problems as often as you can. If you're doing that then it will most likely not be available when you need Hymn.

Oh and double posting is bad. =/