New announced changes to talent trees

[Töasty]

I know this is all speculation, but I'm wondering/hoping that with the recent announced changes to talent trees, there may be one feral spec in cataclysm that can be used for cat and bear. It would be really nice to have a one spec dedicated to feral that's able to dps or tank, and then a moonkin or resto spec. Any thoughts?

[exochaft]

This subject has been beaten to death long before this new talent tree revision was mentioned.

Blizz has stated that they don't want a bear/kitty hybrid spec that has the best of both tanking and DPS capabilities. We used to be able to do this in one spec back in BC, they will avoid doing it again if humanly possible.

[Yeran]

It worked that way in BC (I liked it back then), but it had some flaws and blizzard mostly scrapped the idea of true hybrids.

With dual specc your ability to shift between forms would only be of true use midfight. As a result we would be really cool in say 5 fights, but inferior in all the other (as they couldnt let us tank/dps as good as fully specialized classes).
So I guess (and hope) it will still be some kind of split talent tree.

That being said mastery could really work in our favor, as items used for tanking suddenly also grant a (minor) dps-increase in cat. I'm curious how that'll work out. But if we happen to do way superior dps in tankspecc (compared to other tanks), they'll stop us. Its just that simple.

[exochaft]

But if we happen to do way superior dps in tankspecc (compared to other tanks), they'll stop us. Its just that simple.

That's exactly why Blizz doesn't want it to happen again. It was and is literally not fair to any other class (and this is coming from a feral tank since classic wow, I'm not a troll from another class ).


Edit: New blue post came out while typing this. "Feral is a challenge. We still want to have a cat-centric, bear-centric or hybrid build. It has always been one of the more challenging trees to work on." So yes, it will be possible to have a hybrid build, however it's pretty obvious that it cannot be as powerful as a cat-centric or bear-centric build... otherwise, what's the point?

[Töasty]

New blue post came out while typing this. "Feral is a challenge. We still want to have a cat-centric, bear-centric or hybrid build. It has always been one of the more challenging trees to work on." So yes, it will be possible to have a hybrid build, however it's pretty obvious that it cannot be as powerful as a cat-centric or bear-centric build... otherwise, what's the point?

I noticed this post too... Oh well it sounded like a possibility considering 31 pointer is the furthest down the tree will go, and you only have 41 or 42 points to spend.

[bavarcarus]

I shoulda known when they announced that they were going to do it, that they had already done it lol. Next beta patch will have the trees, so it might not be that long a wait.

[Cortano]

So yes, it will be possible to have a hybrid build, however it's pretty obvious that it cannot be as powerful as a cat-centric or bear-centric build... otherwise, what's the point?

On of the things that really attracts people to the feral spec is the ability to change forms, adjust what you are doing dynamically. Blizzard 'need' to maintain the hybrid nature of ferals or they risk alienating a large chunk of those players by ruining the feel of the class.

Blizz has stated that they don't want a bear/kitty hybrid spec that has the best of both tanking and DPS capabilities. We used to be able to do this in one spec back in BC, they will avoid doing it again if humanly possible.

Things have changed. Before dual specs, this was (quite rightly) a serious source of jealousy.

I think it is more accurate to say that they have gone 180 degrees on this, and now talk about having Frost DKs, Ret Paladins, and Arms Warriors able to tank instances in their DPS specs.

They also have spent a lot of effort making soloing and leveling in "tanking" specs much easier. Damage is more comparable, and there is a good mechanism in changing stance to dynamically change whether you are doing "more DPS" or "more survival" in a spec.

I'd personally say that they think that it is not only a good thing, but something that should be made available more broadly to other classes as well. You won't do the "best" of both, but you can be "best" in one and still "viable" (for any level of content below the top end raid) in the other.

With dual-specs and the incorporation of PvP talents into the basic package for a spec; this ability is more about "flavor" and ease of play for new players (who don't have access to dual specs) than it is any serious game advantage in the "end game", when you can just swap into a pure DPS spec.

[Elunedra]

i jsut readed today they still wana keep a bear and a cat spec and maybe a hybrid spec that sucs at both

and its not evne hthat hard for blizzard todo so, they just make 1 kitty tree and make 1 bear tree,

then marge the 2 together while leaving the realy manditoy talents unmarged so u cna either put your points in them or the the other, epseialy if theym ake the maditory talents like 3 talents points for example tigers fury, then u cant spend anything in bear any more

[exochaft]

I think it is more accurate to say that they have gone 180 degrees on this, and now talk about having Frost DKs, Ret Paladins, and Arms Warriors able to tank instances in their DPS specs.

Not at all. They've specifically stated they only want DPS specs to be able to tank for 5man content and not for raiding environments. That's where the hybrid specs have classically found their effective niche, in 5man content.

I think a lot of people really forget why it was such a big deal for druids to be able to optimize tanking and DPS in one spec. Class jealousy? Sure, there's always that around, but being able to be an exceptional DPS and tank in the same spec and gear is beyond ludicrous. If another non-feral druid class couldn't provide a unique buff or utility (especially with how raid buffs are being spread around), why would you take a non-feral? "Sorry, Mr. Pally/DK/Warrior, we already have the buffs/debuffs you provide, so we're going to bring in the feral druid because he can do awesome DPS and tank just as good as you w/o switching specs and gear in the same fight."

Long story short, it was all about min/maxing a raid. Not having to rotate out players due to the lack of dual specs was part of the issue, but you'd do that with raid members anyways to customize your group for encounters.*

I know where this is going to land, so I'll address this now. "But but but... we have glyphs and gear swapping!" First, let's address what makes the kitty rotation really work.

If you're a pure tank spec, what kills your ability to actually DPS effectively as a kitty? Is it your glyphs? In all honesty, you could put in all cat glyphs while tanking and not see a play difference in bear... so scratch glyphs being the problem. Is it talents? Absolutely. Even with kitty glyphs, the hardest part while being a tank spec is keeping SR and Rip up... and it's the cat talents that make this possible. Ever try Shred spamming with a tank spec w/o Shredding Attacks or no KotJ in your tanking spec? There's a ton of talents that you need to choose in order to make kitty DPS function properly that currently are not in most standard tanking specs.

2.) Alright, let's look at the gear. For the sake of argument at this point, we'll ignore armor pen (why? It's going away and being converted to haste/crit in Cataclysm, and we're focusing on the future). I've looked at my tanking gear, I'm not exclusively stam-stacked, but I do have a lot of stam and armor enhancements on my gear. If I go kitty, how do my stats look in terms of DPS? Pretty incredible actually. Keep in mind, our tanking gear IS leather DPS gear. Since my HP is already super high, I tend to toss on the cheap 5man ToC arpen trinket and the agility DMC:G for a lot of fights... with procs, I'm sitting at 70.47% melee crit, hit/exp capped, 10.8k AP, 245 haste rating (a bit low, but hey, I didn't itemize ICC), and if you really care ~46% arpen... in bear form. Those are pretty solid stats, especially for non-arpen capped... in kitty, I'd basically be crit capped along with hit/exp cap... but a currently kitty spec'd druid in the same gear would destroy my kitty DPS. If you break the barrier between tanking and DPS talents, I could put out really good DPS numbers while being a great tank in the process.

So tell me... why would you bring a pally/DK/warrior tank if they don't provide a unique buff and cannot pump out the same DPS as a druid while the same druid is just a good as tank as the other class? What happened in BC was this... those classes (minus DKs, obviously) were sat over feral druids! It wasn't about being a good tank one fight and being a good DPS on another fight... it was being a good tank and good DPS in the same fight. Could we bring up other tank class DPS abilities while not tanking to be on par with the super bear/kitty hybrid spec? Wouldn't be feasible... not only would plate tanks need to use DPS plate, their talent trees would all have to undergo major revision... but it leads to more problems in the long run, too, because why would you bring a DPS that doesn't bring a unique buff when I can bring <insert class> super hybrid tank/DPSer that can do your job and be a tank in a pinch? See where this is going? Once you make a class able to do two jobs well at once, you'll start excluding other classes because of their mere presence undermines the raid's ability to min/max (unless we bring you just for you buffs... oh wait, Blizz doesn't want that either, oops).

Edit: *LoL, I was just remembering a couple of BT raids where we had a certain priest who was good at Holy and Shadow. He used to have to always port out and get summoned back to switch specs based on fights, and there was all the grumbling while having to wait on his slow butt to respec. Why am I mentioning this story? It proves a point: the super kitty/bear hybrid spec was not OP because we didn't have to respec between jobs, a druid could just teleport to Moonglade, respec, and get summoned back, just like everyone else. Dual specs just made what every class could already do a bit easier (hell, there weren't even glyphs to worry about back then)... the real problem was being able to do two jobs well in the same fight w/o the need to switch specs or gear.

[Cortano]

"Sorry, Mr. Pally/DK/Warrior, we already have the buffs/debuffs you provide, so we're going to bring in the feral druid because he can do awesome DPS and tank just as good as you w/o switching specs and gear in the same fight."

That already can't happen. You will need to have the right gear, with the right enchants and gems, the right glyphs, the right flasks, the right food.... in order to be "just as good". A feral "100% value hybrid" spec is still not going to be anywhere near the effectiveness just because they are wearing all the wrong gear.

If you break the barrier between tanking and DPS talents, I could put out really good DPS numbers while being a great tank in the process.

Even with the "perfect" spec, but wrong gems, enchants, etc... you take a significant DPS hit. That DPS hit is already large enough that you aren't displacing those other classes.. and that is in the limited case of needing to switch in fight.

In the general case, when you change prior to the fight, every other class has the same benefit a feral does.

What happened in BC was this... those classes (minus DKs, obviously) were sat over feral druids!

Then dual specs were introduced. A balance issue you keep obsessing about from two expansions ago vanished.

[bavarcarus]

ArP is the biggest thing that changes wrath kittie to cata, without it most of a tank's gear is going to be correct. We also have yet to see if we'll be stacking stm or agi as tanks with blizzard trying to make healer mana an issue. If we end up with agi then there isn't going to be that much of a difference from tank to kittie sets.

[Donald Hellscream]

i jsut readed today they still wana keep a bear and a cat spec and maybe a hybrid spec that sucs at both

and its not evne hthat hard for blizzard todo so, they just make 1 kitty tree and make 1 bear tree,

then marge the 2 together while leaving the realy manditoy talents unmarged so u cna either put your points in them or the the other, epseialy if theym ake the maditory talents like 3 talents points for example tigers fury, then u cant spend anything in bear any more

you got to be trolling me.

[exochaft]

ArP is the biggest thing that changes wrath kittie to cata, without it most of a tank's gear is going to be correct. We also have yet to see if we'll be stacking stm or agi as tanks with blizzard trying to make healer mana an issue. If we end up with agi then there isn't going to be that much of a difference from tank to kittie sets.

With high enough gear levels, you can get away with putting in a lot of DPS-oriented enchants/gems.

---------- Post added 2010-07-08 at 05:22 PM ----------

Well, I had a nice long response to say how dumb this statement truly is, then my kid went and deleted it >.<
I'll try to reconstruct the best I can.

Then dual specs were introduced. A balance issue you keep obsessing about from two expansions ago vanished.

Please explain to me how dual specs balances a class and spec. Seriously. Does dual specs alter my rotation or make my DPS bigger or my tank more survivable? No, dual specs plays zero role in the balancing of a character's ability. You're saying the super kitty/bear hybrid spec from BC was abolished and considered OP was due to gold... that's the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard.

Even with the "perfect" spec, but wrong gems, enchants, etc... you take a significant DPS hit. That DPS hit is already large enough that you aren't displacing those other classes.. and that is in the limited case of needing to switch in fight.

In the general case, when you change prior to the fight, every other class has the same benefit a feral does.

Well, you got one thing right, and it proves your entire argument wrong in the process. "In the general case, when you change prior to the fight, every other class has the same benefit a feral does." You're admitting that even in BC, when any class could change prior to a fight, every class had the same benefit as a feral. Nothing stopped people from hearthing out to change specs, it happened all the time.

You also seem to forget that we had more gemming/enchanting restrictions on our gear back in BC than we do now in WotLK. We didn't have crit immunity via talents for a long time, we needed to gear for it like warriors and paladins did. However, unlike warriors and paladins, we could go kitty in that same gear and put up really good DPS numbers. The entire reason this hybrid spec brought up issues was for the OT spots. No one would bring an extra paladin or warrior OT when you could get a druid to do the same job and put up a big DPS number when not actively tanking.

Also, you're placing way too much emphasis on gems/enchants making a big portion of kitty DPS. It's truly the spec that makes the largest difference in how much damage a druid can pump out. I've had my fair share of times where I switch gear and forget to switch specs... so I've had experience where I have "all the right gear and enchants" but just in tank spec. With the only variable being tank vs kitty spec and the gear being the constant, what's the DPS difference? Almost 4000 DPS. Don't try to tell me that a handful of gems and a couple enchants on my tanking set are going to close that gap, don't delude yourself. I've actually done kitty spec with tanking gear on, and while the DPS difference is not as spectacular (more around the 3.3k DPS deviance), having all the core kitty talents makes an insane amount of difference compared to gemming and enchanting selections.

I'll try to summarize a little so you don't get lost in the text too much. The core problem comes down to that feral tanks and DPS share the exact same gear, and I've show how little effect gems/enchants actually change the DPS output in comparision to being kitty or tank spec. Back in BC, when the true hybrid kitty/bear spec was in existance, you could wear tanking gear and pull out DPS numbers near the other DPS-only people when you were kitty... but you were also tanking the same fight in the same gear, too. The reason the problem doesn't exist now isn't because of dual specs or glyphs or gems/enchants... the druid talent tree was fundamentally changed so we could not get all the core bear and kitty talents at the same time.

Edit: Oops, forgot to mention for the BC gearing. We were also using PvP resilience items to get crit capped... and the funny thing was, the exact same items were good for kitty DPS, too.

[Cheezee]

That already can't happen. You will need to have the right gear, with the right enchants and gems, the right glyphs, the right flasks, the right food.... in order to be "just as good". A feral "100% value hybrid" spec is still not going to be anywhere near the effectiveness just because they are wearing all the wrong gear.

Then dual specs were introduced. A balance issue you keep obsessing about from two expansions ago vanished.

As Exo pointed out, gear doesn't matter. In full tank gear and bear spec we can easily go cat and still put out decent dps. We won't top meters but it'll still be easily 2-3 times what the other tank classes can put out by swapping to a non-defensive stance/presence.

[sicness]

As Exo pointed out, gear doesn't matter. In full tank gear and bear spec we can easily go cat and still put out decent dps. We won't top meters but it'll still be easily 2-3 times what the other tank classes can put out by swapping to a non-defensive stance/presence.

Part of the thing to keep in mind with this though is having the opportunity to actually do this. Festergut for instance gives you the opportunity to do so, however most encounters won't allow for it.

[Cortano]

As Exo pointed out, gear doesn't matter. In full tank gear and bear spec we can easily go cat and still put out decent dps. We won't top meters but it'll still be easily 2-3 times what the other tank classes can put out by swapping to a non-defensive stance/presence.

That is the case currently. I agree with you. What I don't understand is "why is the current state of things a problem?" and "why does the changes announced in cataclysm make this problem worse?"

Starting from where we are now (currently possible), is there a problem that needs to be addressed? Generally speaking: I don't think so. Obviously, you are arguing that this is a massive problem RIGHT NOW. I don't really see that. Ferals, by being able to switch to a DPS form, have an advantage on a couple fights. Other fights have mechanics that also one tank over another.


Lets recap:
My point:
- A hybrid is expected to suffer some DPS loss
- You suffer a loss in DPS when switching from a tank stance to DPS

Exo's point:
- The DPS loss that ferals have RIGHT NOW is not sufficient and as a class we NEED to be nerfed in cataclysm for BALANCE reasons

[bavarcarus]

LK, PP, sindragosa, deathwhisper, saurfang, festergut, in all of those fights there's an opportunity for tanks to dps.

[Vildhjarta]

wtb only 4 tree class

---------- Post added 2010-07-08 at 03:01 PM ----------

id say...tanks dps in every fight...ever?

[Spl4sh3r]

I don't see a problem with merging the cat only and the bear only talents together seeing how the only real use of a cat AND bear is for example if one of the tanks die then the kitty can change into bear and take over for a while and still stand a good chance of surviving.

There won't be any argument that bear would be better than the rest since they will be able to go kitty when not needed. Same with all other tanks using dual-specs. It's basicly only the above comment if a tank died that would make the catbear druid in any way. And if the tank did die then the raid did something wrong anyway so it would not really help having this kind of druid tank ;P

[Cortano]

Well, you got one thing right, and it proves your entire argument wrong in the process. "In the general case, when you change prior to the fight, every other class has the same benefit a feral does." You're admitting that even in BC, when any class could change prior to a fight, every class had the same benefit as a feral. Nothing stopped people from hearthing out to change specs, it happened all the time.

Let me recap your argument(s):
(a) Ferals are the only class that displaced other classes on raids
(b) Ferals never were never displaced by other classes
(c) Adding a dual spec did nothing to alter things, the situation now is as dire as it ever was in BC, and (gasp) is getting worse with shared gear!
(d) That since ferals have the ability to switch to cat mid-fight, and in many fight do so, ferals are still displacing other classes from raids in ICC
(e) If urgent is not taken soon, all raids will be entirely composed of ferals druids, people brought for buffs, and healers

and your reply to me:
(f) because hearthstone/respec existed prior to dual specs, this conclusively proves that ferals displaced other people on raids entirely on the basis on switching mid fight

I could try to correct you... but geez... where would I even begin?