Shield Wall, what?

[Tigercat]

Here:



Don't get mad plx. And it took me nearly 1 min of my life to write all that while maybe it takes to you 5min to write QQ.

---------- Post added 2010-10-11 at 11:46 PM ----------



His name was Shazzrah and the only arcane thing he does was:
Arcane Explosion—Sends out a blast wave of magic, inflicting 925 to 1075 Arcane damage to nearby enemies.

The part of the encounter mechanic that made this troublesome was his debuff:
Shazzrah's Curse—Increases the magical damage taken by nearby enemies by 100% for 5 min It was a curse that had to be decursed. And if I'm not mistaken he only did the Arcane Blast when he blinks...

Nice try, not a 100% spell damage boss. Still he does raid wide damage, the guy taking the big damage was the one with the debuf and it had to be decursed asap.

And w/e with Vanilla, everyone knows Vanilla is not comming back.

You replied to his post saying it was just a boss that you needed fire resist for, when it was arcane damage being done. You tried to act informed, and made a fool of yourself in the process.

Furthermore, the explosion(not blast) happened fairly constantly, this is why melee did not get much chance to do any damage, hell my role back then as a warrior was to bandage people because this was back when healer mana actually mattered and I'd just be a mana sponge if I tried to dps. What little melee damage there was was borderline negligible, that danger lied in people being stupid when a blink happened and getting aggro, this would lead to healers getting exploded and a rapidly spiraling cycle of deaths.

Just stop trying to take the conversation off on pointless tangents because you think you know more than the other guy, someone will step in and prove you to be wrong.

[Garkanh]

how will this affect low lvl prot warriors? im currently leveling a warrior, lvl 23 so far, and +100% block chance is nice for when the healer fucks something up, or i make big pulls. if its only 40% damage reduction, is that about the same as before? not bothered doing the math

[sixx]

You replied to his post saying it was just a boss that you needed fire resist for, when it was arcane damage being done. You tried to act informed, and made a fool of yourself in the process.

Furthermore, the explosion(not blast) happened fairly constantly, this is why melee did not get much chance to do any damage, hell my role back then as a warrior was to bandage people because this was back when healer mana actually mattered and I'd just be a mana sponge if I tried to dps. What little melee damage there was was borderline negligible, that danger lied in people being stupid when a blink happened and getting aggro, this would lead to healers getting exploded and a rapidly spiraling cycle of deaths.

Just stop trying to take the conversation off on pointless tangents because you think you know more than the other guy, someone will step in and prove you to be wrong.

First I never specified if it was one boss. Secondly I brought it as an example when someone previously used an example of MC having spell damage on the majority of the bosses. I added to that, that the encounters weren't of those that the tank had to deal with tanking spell damage that it was the mechanic of the encounter to be a raid wide damage. Explosion is the name given by the raiders to the spell, but the spell correct name is Arcane Blast. I never did myself MC that much, I only know about what I've been told and some vids I saw and internet descriptions. If you say it happens constantly, fine this confirms is was more of a raid wide damage rather than a damage focused on the tank.

How this topic got brought? Someone pointed how poorly a warrior will look vs a boss that does spell damage, example LK's Soul Reaper. I later said bout DK tanks solo tanking the LK for Soul Reapers. So then people started arguing bout how powerfull his arsenal of cooldowns were vs a warrior tank.

We are here to discuss, share ideas, share our different points of view and more importantly to learn from each other. If I were a guy to know everything I wouldn't bother to post here. But if you make an argument, I tend to verify on what you basing to prove your point. And eventually I reply if it's wrong or not. I don't pretend to know anything, I pretend to prove arguments.

And again, don't get mad, we are here to have fun discussing mechanics not fighting over each other to prove "who have's it bigger".

[GrieverXIII]

I'm actualy going with Battousai and the others there, Shield Wall isn't as good as IBF/GoAK but shield block will be AMAZING with the correct gear setup.

Only thing that bothers me is the glyph of Shield Wall, i find it pretty pointless, i'd rather have a slightly weaker CD availlable a lot more often than a big CD that i'll be able to use once in a fight. It will depend on encounters too i guess, if they bring back something similar to Algalon's Big Bang, the glyph might be interesting, otherwise i know i'll probably skip it.

[Saverem]

Here:



Don't get mad plx. And it took me nearly 1 min of my life to write all that while maybe it takes to you 5min to write QQ.

---------- Post added 2010-10-11 at 11:46 PM ----------



His name was Shazzrah and the only arcane thing he does was:
Arcane Explosion—Sends out a blast wave of magic, inflicting 925 to 1075 Arcane damage to nearby enemies.

The part of the encounter mechanic that made this troublesome was his debuff:
Shazzrah's Curse—Increases the magical damage taken by nearby enemies by 100% for 5 min It was a curse that had to be decursed. And if I'm not mistaken he only did the Arcane Blast when he blinks...

Nice try, not a 100% spell damage boss. Still he does raid wide damage, the guy taking the big damage was the one with the debuf and it had to be decursed asap.

And w/e with Vanilla, everyone knows Vanilla is not comming back.

Again I ask, Where in that comment did I imply that bosses only use spell damage? You keep wasting your time replying on assumptions. Now you also assume that I'm mad for some reason.

Also your troll sig is too big, you should probably fix it's size before the mods see it....OWAIT... damnit, I've been trolled again!

OH YOU TROLLS!

[Flawed]

Spell bosses wut!? There never been in the History of WoW an actual Spell boss that requires to be 100% effective vs it at the point that you must have a variety of a big arsenal to be able to tank it.

Why you get flamed? Most warriors here are smart and know that the way the ProtMastery works it's amazing. We may no longer have nice cooldowns and we can feel kinda slacky on that one(something that is completely irrelevant, we still have amazing cooldowns) but we easily have the best passive mitigation way a tank could have. You are focusing and QQng over a simple cooldown and not the entire class mechanic we have now that is really outstanding.

And no, don't expect me to explain to you how it works. Don't be a baddie and research yourself.

Please, don't call people baddies. I haven't seen much of the conversation warranting such an insult. The point is obviously not about an encounter that is 100% magic damage. Use your noggin. I think you should do some research yourself, there are plenty of hard mode encounters that REQUIRE (or during their gear level days, did) a high damage mitigating cooldown to be able to tank. Back in the old 213 days, 3-drake Sarth REQUIRED a tanking cooldown to be used twice, sometimes three times. In that case, if the mitigation reduction wasn't good enough it would literally kill a tank in one shot, not including the following strike a few moments after it. Algalon is another example. Like I said before, please do not needless demean others, it devalues this website's forum and more importantly, it makes people like me look down at you. I don't like doing that.

Anyways, back to the thread. Personally, I think the cooldown is fine as it is. We really can't say anything is bad about them. Warriors tend to take more damage in AOE pulls, but less single target damage (or so someone on these threads had mentioned a few days ago). Until the hard mode/satisfying or somewhat difficult boss encounters are released, 40% damage mitigation seems appropriate or fine to me. Like Batt had mentioned there are also other goodies Warriors have to survive. Mitigation is simply not the only factor in survivability. Vamp embrace from DKs is not a mitigating cooldown, but it increases survivability by a rather large margin (even more so depending on your healers). No need to get worried until more information is given out.

[Bethrezen]

Warrior mechanics as a class for tanking are fine. Quit beating the troll horse on a inconsequential issue. Especially since more than half these naysayers haven't a clue how the new talents/class design is working in favor for the warrior. Personally, rather mitigate all the incoming physical damage from bosses in the first place, since vanilla always even, as each bosses major majority damage is from it's swings to begin with.

[Sevyvia]

As people have mentioned, when we come up against bosses that require the use of cooldowns to survive (We will), this -is- going to matter. It's not even a question of homogenization, it's simply about people being on the same footing.

Regardless, I've still yet to see what is a genuine reason for this, and not some form of "Let's all be cool here, it'll be fine". I will indeed be fine, I will still raid with my raidgroup. Once again, though, that does -not- change the fact that this change is going to put me (And every other Prot warrior) in a worse position. I've yet to see a reason for putting us behind two other tanks on this front, it seems like a quite arbitrary act on Blizzard's part, honestly.

[Deleted]

... OWAIT... damnit, I'm trolling again!

Fixed it for you. Just move on dude, people are not going to capitulate just 'cause you complain.

Though, that does -not- change the fact that this change is going to put me (And every other Prot warrior) in a worse position. I've yet to see a reason for putting us behind two other tanks on this front, it seems like a quite arbitrary act on Blizzard's part, honestly.

I'm not too concerned tbh. Yes, the CD is 20% lower or several minutes longer than the other tanks but this is assuming that it is going to make a difference. We'll see how it works out when the thing actually goes live. Warriors are the weakest against magic heavy opponents but that's been the case for a long time now and yet we see warriors tanking every encounter in current content, and coming out on top. Some of the world's best warriors, in fact, are warriors and don't see them complaining.

To me it seems more like people are complaining because they can't be the sexiest tank choice for every encounter. So you'll be tanking adds and soaking spirits on the LK. So what? I don't see anything demeaning about it, nor does it make me doubt that I'm playing a good class. If warriors lose their viability as tanks, it's another matter entirely but me and a host of other warrior tanks do not believe so. One has to also remember that the glyph system is a lot more flexible in 4.0.x. It is easier and even cheaper to swap out glyphs, so if you actually come across a single encounter that you don't think you'll be able to survive without hitting a 60% mitigator CD (doubtful) you can swap them between fights with minimun fuss.

I recently moved my main from DK to warrior and the one thing I learned is that you can't really compare tanks 1 on 1, the way that a lot of people compare them, even on these forums. Tanks play different and you should play to your strengths, instead of reminiscing about your weaknesses.

[Battousai]

What kind of damage are we talking about really...

You're not going to get a shield wall up everytime a boss uses a CD. Soul Reaper for example happens a lot more often. The extra 20% if you don't glyph it...well lets put it really into perspective. Throw out some imaginary number based on what I personally forsee given a raid tank with 120k health. (first cata raid teir gear). Here's a 5 second window of 2 melee hits assuming no dodges or parries, and your big spell hit. Assuming equal AC and Stam.

Melee hit - 25k

Big Spell Hit - 50k

Melee hit - 25k

A Druid/DK would negate 60% of this...or 60,000 damage.
A Paladin would negate 60% of this plus the possibility of more based on block chance on the 2 melee hits. Each additional block for the paladin would be another 3k after. For the possibility of a total mitigation of 66,000 out of 100,000.

The warrior would just in this 5 second window unglyphed would mitigate 40% from shield wall...or 40k plus the possibility of blocking a portion of the other two hits. Every regular block would be worth 4500 (as he is mitigating a % of larger melee hit than the paladin) and every critical block is 9k. So the warrior getting 2 critical blocks would negate an additional 18k...best case senarior (which is what you would calc if you were looking at this as a pally/druid/dk tank wouldn't you?). So...the warrior can negate 58k compared to the 60k of the other tanks.

SO you may say...SEE?..warrior tanks suck compared...that's BS!!!

But, from my perspective, I don't see that...I see the fact that the warrior just completely made up the difference of shield wall in a 5 second window...and has 2 mins to make up the additional 2k damage.

Now granted thats the best case senario for the warrior. But even assuming no blocks...my guess is that the warrior would make up the difference in 2 mins given the opportunity to critical block in between shield wall cds.

[Bakis]

No matter what anyone says, Warriors will remain being the worst spell damage tank of the 4 if nothing changes.

So I guess warriors should be the best tank in all fields right?
Why are warriors worried anyway. Warriors been the developer fave tankclass since launch much the same as mages been the developers baby of casters.

[Mammoth]

Warriors:

Shield Wall, 40% damage reduction, 2 minute CD (Talented).

So basically, Warriors are now stuck with a worse version of the main tank damage reduction cooldown, unless they glyph it to 60% and then have a cooldown that is double of what the other tank classes have? Is this really what it's like?

On live it has a 3min CD and does 60% reduction. But all good warrior tanks glyph it to be 40% with 2min CD, because its better to have it more frequent. All they have done is to inverse the glyph effect, so that the preferred state is now default. I really don't see the problem.

[Battousai]

On live it has a 3min CD and does 60% reduction. But all good warrior tanks glyph it to be 40% with 2min CD, because its better to have it more frequent. All they have done is to inverse the glyph effect, so that the preferred state is now default. I really don't see the problem.

Not being in the beta or involved in the PTR (I'll be the first to admit I'm slacking off), this is the first I've seen or heard of this. Seeing as no one yet has come in to say this, and the fact that the glyphs and the spells pulled from the beta and PTR say that the original is 40% with a 2 mins CD glyphed to 60% for a 4 min CD...You'll understand if I don't believe you until you get a coupel people to back you up...or you post some screenies.

Or at the very least...until I can get home and see for myself as its live now.

[McCheese]

which tank has damage reduction cooldowns for others? that's right, warrs! safeguard says hi, and it owns soul reaper. 30% reduc? for 6 seconds, on a 30s cd.

[Deleted]

blizzard hates warriors nuff said

[Alianthos]

It's not very clever to compare Tanks CD wise... There's so much more out there. Debuffs for instance. We bring Armor reduction, AP reduction, Attack speed reduction. We got an amazing mobility. We can easily Control shit.

Oh yes, now we only have a 40% shield wall. Get over it, boss will be dead in 5 minutes anyway. Just saying "Warrior sucks because our SW is 40% 2 min CD + only Shield block blah blah" is only beeing selective and narrow-minded.

[Tigercat]

It's not very clever to compare Tanks CD wise... There's so much more out there. Debuffs for instance. We bring Armor reduction, AP reduction, Attack speed reduction. We got an amazing mobility. We can easily Control shit.

Oh yes, now we only have a 40% shield wall. Get over it, boss will be dead in 5 minutes anyway. Just saying "Warrior sucks because our SW is 40% 2 min CD + only Shield block blah blah" is only beeing selective and narrow-minded.

If you start counting in general utility as well it's paladins first(sup blessings, judgements, auras, hands,) druids second(innervate, battle rez, motw,) DKs(AP, interrupts) and Warriors(shouts, sunder, interrupts) miles behind.

All the tanks have the attack speed reduction.

[Battousai]

Your forgetting Safeguard Tiger...its really huge when your talking about basically having Pain suppression available every 30 sec.

The two biggest things I see that warriors bring to the table are Safeguard and Critical Block...done right and with enough mastery...I can really see warriors being a staple in Heroic Raids because of the tank mitigation (self and Offtank).

[Alianthos]

If you start counting in general utility as well it's paladins first(sup blessings, judgements, auras, hands,) druids second(innervate, battle rez, motw,) DKs(AP, interrupts) and Warriors(shouts, sunder, interrupts) miles behind.

All the tanks have the attack speed reduction.

No, not miles behind, not anymore. motw = kings, we have more interrupts than DK, Innervate is getting nerfed to the ground, and our shouts are 10 times better than they were : basically we have Horn of Winter + Priest stamina buff.

Do be too quick to trash Warriors when it comes down to raid utility because we have a LOT.

[Tigercat]

Your forgetting Safeguard Tiger...its really huge when your talking about basically having Pain suppression available every 30 sec.

The two biggest things I see that warriors bring to the table are Safeguard and Critical Block...done right and with enough mastery...I can really see warriors being a staple in Heroic Raids because of the tank mitigation (self and Offtank).

I doubt Blizzard will be very happy with hearing the "I'm just in this raid as a safeguard bot" lines once raids get going. I'm not expecting that talent to last in its current incarnation very long.