Vigil Underwhelming / Useless

[senator]

So given the value of each talent point these days, how many of you find the new vigil to be completely useless or at the least very underwhelming. I don't even spec for it anymore, as I don't offtank very much, dont' have threat problems really, and when tanking I'm vengence capped very quickly anyway. Seems to be a complete waste of a talent point that they just kept around because it was there.

[Akairos]

It's free threat.

How is that useless?

If I (a paladin) could take it off your hands I would, since you seem to think it's bad.

Just take the 1 point, not like there's many other places to put it nowadays.

[xs_13]

I remember a blue post a while back saying they were thinking of trying to get Revenge proccing from Vigi. Not sure if thats still on the cards. Things might change.
But yes. I agree, it does seem a little lackluster compared to other talents.

[Bender]

I didn't spec it either. Once vengeance is stacked its fucking impossible to lose aggro in raids and I doubt it makes much of a difference in 5mans either since everything dies in 1 second and vengeance resets all the freaking time.

[un_known]

i only use vigi on the MT of LKHC for less damage done to him and ofc free boost in vengeance other than that it's just a waste of time tbh

[xs_13]

Putting it on an offtank is probably the way to go. just gives you a taunt with no cooldown and marginally less stress for healers.

[senator]

Is 3% damage reduction not covered elsewhere? Still a really marginal off-tanking talent that only works for ME(as a tank) when someone ELSE is tanking. Again just an utterly useless talent now imo. I mean think about it, I get taunts when someone else is already tanking - very limited utility there. I get 20% of their damage as vengence only when they are tanking - again with the marginal usefulness.

[Deleted]

If you can't see why Vigilance is good...

First off, it's -3% damage taken, if that's not covered from elsewhere.

Second, did you never swap tanks while tanking in WotLK? Do you know how fast Vengeance decays? Do you know how low our tps is without it?

[JustintimeSS]

If you can't see why Vigilance is good...

First off, it's -3% damage taken, if that's not covered from elsewhere.

Second, did you never swap tanks while tanking in WotLK? Do you know how fast Vengeance decays? Do you know how low our tps is without it?

Yea, this all the way. Obviously it is useless to some who dont raid or only raid encounters where there is no tank swap. If you raid ICC then you will already know how good this talent is.

Clearly it is worthless in the eyes of someone who just tanks heroics but as a whole it is not a worthless talent by any means.

[Horace]

There's a couple of you that mention "free threat", so I just wanted to make sure..

Are you talking about:
A) Free attack power from Vengeance which then means more threat
or
B) Have you not noticed that the threat funnel has been removed from it?

That said, for raiding, Vigilance is a powerful tool in any fight that has tank swaps and/or adds, and it'll make us (read: me, the dumbfounded warrior nub) more viable with the trash aggro :<

[antonatsis]

i find vigilance more of a pvp talent now than a pve(ofc taunt is not pvp friendly :P )
in pve if you dont put it on an off tank then it goes only to melee dps for me since all of the dps have the same chanse to be hit in a raid so its just on a random melee dps
afcourse its some extra threat so its good i have it in my spec since it helps in heroics and it will help a lot in 85
generally in my opinion its a good thing to have as an extra!
ofc since i stoped raiding i dont know if it helps now in raids so my opinion lacks some extra knoledge on that part!

[Eldar45]

This is the greatest ability ever for off tanking on LK. Put it on the MT and just spam taunt on the ghouls that spawn. You could probably use it to taunt vile spirits as well, but I'm not sure about that, as I have only off tanked LK on phase 1. I usually MT him on phase 2/3.

And in beta its good on add based fights where the adds will basically zerg the healer. The healer will probably be able to survive several hits, and it gives you a no cooldown taunt to pull the adds of with. Believe me, Thunderclap won't pull cockroaches off of a healer, much less angry, angry murlocs.

[Keepwatukill]

If you can't see why it's good then you don't deserve it.

[senator]

Firstly, back to the 3% damage reduction - this is no longer covered anywhere else? I guess thats pretty cool but too bad I can't just vigil my damn self.

Secondly, I'm not a big math guy but it seems reasonable that one point in Incite or War Academy (passive effects) might well beat out the vengence (and therefore damage) you get from vigil (again, this would only apply when someone else is tanking). These are talents that give you a boost all the time rather than during the few minutes of a 2 tank boss fight.

And thirdly on threat - unless you guys are having some threat problem (which I'm certainly not, even without vigil), I don't see how it has any practical effect. The dps-boost would be pretty marginal and only apply when not tanking. When you are tanking, you are taunting off your off-tank on tank switches anyway so all of their threat is yours and Vigil does nothing about their threat; once the boss is on you, vigil would help you hit venge cap a few micoseconds earlier (BFD). Having a few more ap when you initially taunt doesn't seem better than a boost to TPS all the time (Incite / War Academy / Shield Block vs. Vigil scenario). Its just not a 'powerful tool' any way I've looked at it. Its also necessarily a tps LOSS when you are tankign since you can't take all of these dps oriented talents atm anyway.

Anyone got some 3% damage reduction info help?

[elossa]

This is a good talent:
Vigilance
Rank 1 Focus your protective gaze on a group or raid target, reducing their damage taken by 3%. In addition, each time they are hit by an attack your Taunt cooldown is refreshed and you gain Vengeance as if 20% of the damage was done to you. Lasts 30 min. This effect can only be on one target at a time.


this is a crapy talent:
Safeguard
Rank 1-2 Reduces damage taken by the target of your Intervene ability by [15%/30%] for 6 sec.

[Torne]

3% less dmg for you 2nd tank + practically no cd on taunt + keeping Vengeance up even as offtank.
pretty awesome for ome point.

[Nilinor]

@Senator

Without thinking to hard I can name an encounter where Vigilance is amazing as its job. If I try, I could come up with more.

Lady Deathwhisper.

That wasnt even trying to hard! Other people mentioned LK adds, maybe on heroic festergut too, kiting adds on rotface (constant taunt is nice in dicey situations). Marrowgar with 3 tanks? Saurfang is a DPS race I heard, and your not solo tanking that. BQL so your vengeance decay doesnt kill you. Sindragosa during tank swaps, Valithria for add control, oh! lets not forget putricide during tank swaps, especially heroic mode where dps is good at the end...

Wait, did I just name off nearly all the encounters in ICC?!? I guess you only tank gunship and princes then right?

[shadowkras]

Vigilance is still useful in every single fight in icc.
Marrowgar you stack it much faster than other tanks, watch them struggle to take aggro from you and simply give up or taunt.
Deathwhisper you keep it always stacked.
Boat, doesnt matter, but again, its always stacked to nearly 100%.
Saurfang, you keep it stacked even after switches, while other tanks decay about 20-30% of it.
Festergut, if you are the second tank, you will taunt with nearly max vegeance, no chance of losing threat. If you are the first, you keep your AP pretty high, swap to battle, cast shattering throw and watch some high dps.
Rotface, a single heroic throw will keep the slime on you until it explodes, no more thunderclapping/shockwaving on dead zone.
Putricide, im not sure how the abomination scales with your stats, but i was pulling 4.3k dps as abom last time i did him, and i couldnt stay 100% attacking anything, just random slimes that passed around me.
Princes it doesnt matter, will just stack a bit faster.
Lanathel is the same as marrowgar, will stack to max much faster than other tanks.
Keep your vegeance fully stacked even if you offtank lich king the whole fight, phase 1 taunt every ghoul to you without threat loss on MT, phase 2 swap to battle stance and do some serious dps/valk control, phase 3 control all vile spirits and where they are going.
And the list goes on.

Anything you are not actively taking damage, it will remain relatively high stacked, anytime you and the other tank are taking similar damage, you will stack it faster than him.

And on top of all, free taunts without anybody bitching about you stealing their threat.
Its useful on dreamwalker, lichking, anubarak, non-heroic champions, jaraxxus, ignis, razorscale, thorim, freya, mimiron, yogg, and any fight you are in charge of controling adds.

The 3% damage reduction is exclusive with disc priest reneweled hope (raid wide when they cast shield) and something else i forgot now, blessing of sanctuary was also exclusive but it got removed.
So unless you have a disc, chances are you are helping your offtank a lot.

this is a crapy talent:
Safeguard
Rank 1-2 Reduces damage taken by the target of your Intervene ability by [15%/30%] for 6 sec.

No, its a situational talent, heroic LK proved that.

[Soady]

vigliance is still usefull

[senator]

I think its still situational despite some overembellished chubbies for vigil here. You guys are really inflating the benefit you get from vigil. I've done all of ICC with it and without (everything heroic save LK and thats coming later this week) and didn't notice one difference except for doing LK adds (which is still easy). None of you are taunting that much and you don't even need a taunt refresh for literally EVERY SINGLE FIGHT you guys mention save LK, and again thats still doable (wtf would other tanks do?). All this stuff is perfectly easy with out vigil taunt refresh and I just haven't seen a big DPS difference. If 1k tank dps is saving you noobs from wiping, please post a log.

Also thanks for the 3% priest info. We do roll with a priest so vigil is even more useless for me. Thanks!