Looks like the Taurens have gotten a problem!

[Vesoha]

You call that a wall?, i call it tauren mikado gone wrong.

[turlyonlost to tirion wtf]

Now how are tauren supposed to pay Jaina back the gold she gave them. Tauren get screwed over in this expansion in some many ways losing T and Thousand needles.

[Deleted]

we didn't burn down camp T for revenge. we burnt it down Coz they were training hunters for the war effort next to one of our new camps.
And we let the Civilians live.

[turlyonlost to tirion wtf]

we didn't burn down camp T for revenge. we burnt it down Coz they were training hunters for the war effort next to one of our new camps.
And we let the Civilians live.

Explain how the flight master died then? http://www.wowpedia.org/Dranh http://www.wowpedia.org/Yonada http://www.wowpedia.org/Krulmoo_Fullmoon

[Aeolian]

The Tauren aren't very good at building walls though, you can run around it.

[Deleted]

HaHa... have you fought a flight master recently? hardly defenceless. and mabye the innkeeper went to get his gun? I don't know, its still a freakin war dude. people die. but at least we made the concession and tryed to let the women, children and all-round wusses escape. I doubt the undead showed the same courtesy in southshore.
not that it was revenge :P

[foofymoonkin]

I don't think many of the Alliance players have actually gone through the Horde questline in South Barrens that deals directly with the Razing of Taurajo. I haven't played through the Alliance end of it, so I don't know the motivations or who ordered what, but their are a number of facts that are revealed in the Horde quests:

1) The Alliance who participated in the take, irregardless of who ordered what, were killing anything that moved, including women and children. This is what caused so scant few refugees by the Taurens reckoning to make it. One Tauren women mentioned that by mere luck she made it through the Alliance lines and if she hadn't she would have been killed by Alliance soldiers (she's in Camp Una'fe) along with a child. The father of said child is in the fortified Horde camp just north of the ruins of Taurajo, who tells you that his wife never made it out.

I don't know if there were actually orders for the town civilians to be allowed to retreat, but if their were, they weren't carried out. Ultimately, then if falls on the head of the General leading the forces and also the sovereign who sent them there. That, since these guys are Theramore soldiers, would be Jaina Proudmoore, who shares responsibility even if she wasn't the author of that particular atrocity. I imagine Thrall is going to have some very harsh words for her once this mess gets straightened out, particularly since Theramore was only allowed to exist after the Third War because of Jaina's promise to Thrall that the town wouldn't be used against the Horde.

2) The Alliance attacked Taurajo when most of the braves in the town were out hunting, or that is what you are told by either the ghosts of one of the fallen or a survivor (I forget which). The reason you have a disproportionate amount of Tauren warriors around there is because the Alliance timed their attack on Taurajo when it has as poorly defended as possible, which given it wasn't a fortified town but a savannah trading post, means there weren't much more than civilians present when the Alliance hit it. The Alliance did kill unarmed people there, for certain. When you talk to the ghost of the Leatherworker trainer there, he tells you that he was forced to defend himself against Alliance soldiers with one of his skinning knives, because he had nothing else to fight back with when they stormed the town. Certainly the Horde sees what they did as absurdly dishonorable, must more so than if the Alliance had met the Tauren in direct battle and won. This is why one of the last Horde quests you do down there is killing and stringing up the corpse of the Alliance general who ordered the attack, not because he attacked them (Horde members can understand that) but because his men butchered innocent civilians while their men were away.

Further, we know that Taurajo was undefended because of the Hordes own reaction to it. Bloodhilt, the orc who found himself in charge of the Tauren warriors who survived Taurajo, goes to Desolation Hold where the Horde command in the region is, specifically because it was the job of Desolation Hold to send forces to defend Taurajo if it came under attack and the Warlord Gar'dul failed to do so. Bloodhilt, ah, takes umbridge with his reasoning, to say the least and invokes the "Victory or Be Chucked Out a Window By Someone Who Takes the War Seriously" clause in his contract.

My own opinion?
The Alliance had a legitimate reason to attack Taurajo from their perspective, certainly. They don't know anything about the Tauren. The Tauren are eight foot tall super strong minotaurs who are skilled warriors and they've probably observed the Tauren, who hunt the equivalent of Elephants with bows and spears. That's pretty damn intimidating. They also clearly don't see them as "people". I know Alliance players occasionally like to Disney up the Alliance in terms of honor and nobility, but the fact is that the humans in the Alliance are culturally somewhat similar to medieval Earth humans, in that "chivalry" and "honor" and "a fair fight" only applies to other guys like you, not to guys from other cultures and certainly not to hunter-gatherer savages who are allied with the people you've got serious beef with. Remember, Theramore, in recent memory was conquered by the Horde, which include Tauren forces which may well have marched through Taurajo on their way to Theramore. With a wound like that and given that you do "chivalry" with dirty wogs like the Tauren, is anyone shocked that Alliance soldiers tried to kill every Tauren they found at Taurajo when they got the go ahead to do so? And remove a possible Horde military training center in the deal to make way for Alliance settlement? Makes bloody sense to me. The fact that they were wrong about the nature of Taurajo and that now the survivors of the massacre are going to make the Alliance pay in blood for their women and children who were dishonorably cut down (and do, if you take the Horde quest lines as true), well, the Alliance involved will get what they deserve at the end.

Taurajo didn't have anything to do with Southshore, or the Forsaken (I'd argue that the Forsaken had a more than legitimate excuse to raze Southshore, given that was the Alliance's port in the region). It was a stupid senseless tragedy that happens in war, and I guarantee you there will be alot more Taurajos and Southshores in the future.

Best post out of this entire Horde/Alliance "I'm better than you" thread.

[turlyonlost to tirion wtf]

HaHa... have you fought a flight master recently? hardly defenceless. and mabye the innkeeper went to get his gun? I don't know, its still a freakin war dude. people die. but at least we made the concession and tryed to let the women, children and all-round wusses escape. I doubt the undead showed the same courtesy in southshore.
not that it was revenge :P

Whats that have to with the Alliance failing to let tauren live to pay of there dept?

[Deleted]

nothing. but were you there? Tauren are pretty damn Hench. Even a Civilian cow with a big stick could do serious damage to a human soldier in plate Armor. the alliance left gaps in the line for people who wanted to run to run. the people are dead because they chose to stay and defend camp t. end of. Unfortunatly i have not played the horde side of this quest, but I understand that it goes along the line of "Bad allys are bad!" *point at camp T*
but thats what you would say if you saw one of ur towns trashed. i don't blame you for it.
but the fact still remains that if the civilians had just run back to mulgore they would not be dead. war isn't about playing nice. oh..i wont kill you because altho you ARE attacking me, you are not on this list of people in Garrosh's army...come on. thats just not realistic
---------- Post added 2010-11-28 at 05:52 AM ----------

In times of war, camps that train soldiers will be distroyed. increasing your army is not going to pay back jaina. and she has pretty much infinite credit rating anyway... seriously.

Ahh...finally read foofymoonkin's post sorry about the TLDR attitude
yeah... I guess thats what the horde spin on it would be. there are alot of justifications on the Ally side for Camp T, and the Tauren who escaped WERE alowed to escape, no matter what they think. but its war, each side will deamonise the other, empathy does not have a major role in war.
Distroying a Training camp when its least defended is just tactics. no one won a war by saying, "right lads, the enemy is at its strongest, ATTACK!"
maby some of the soldiers were a bit over enthusiastic, but well...you get soldiers like that in every war.
in the end, It is a war. more civilians will die.

[Lachdonin]

yeah... I guess thats what the horde spin on it would be.

I personally think that this is a very important point to bring up. There's going to be spin to it, no matter which side you're talking about.

I haven't played through the Alliance end of it, so I don't know the motivations or who ordered what, but their are a number of facts that are revealed in the Horde quests

Statements like this confuse that point. There aren't 'Facts' so much are there are interpretations. unless we actually got to see what happend, its all a tapestry of what people saw and heard, all of which are subjected to bias, fear and a myriad of other emotions which influance how they seethe actual events. The truth is probably a combination of both stories, but even then a good deal is likely left out.

The hard facts, as we have them, are that Garrosh ordered a massive offencive against the Night Elves, particularly through Ashenvale. At the same time, Sylvaanis attacked and destroyed Alliance holdings in Lorderon. In responce, Wrynn ordered a counter offencive through the Barrens. Through these actions, Southshore, Silverwind Refuge and Camp T were effectivly destroyed. People died, and alot of civilians were likely caught in the crossfire. I tend to think that Southshore probably had the most civilian casualties, what with the plague and all, but thats interpretive.

The Alliance order was to let civilians through the line and retreat. The Horde saw civilians killed. It was probably a bit of both, but only a moron would think it hard to tell the differance between a 'soldier' and a 'civilian' when dealing witht he Tauren. Face it, because they don't have a sexual division of labour, and they've spent decades dealing with the Quilboar and Cantaur, each one is a skilled hunter and fighter. Its not like seeing a peasent woman in a skirt running down a street, where you have an obvious distinction.

Furthermore, Camp T was the largest horde settlement between Mulgore and the Crossroads, occupying a place on the Gold Road, and was in all likelyhood a relavent trade point. That makes it at least as viable a strategic location as South Shore.

[Deleted]

I personally think that this is a very important point to bring up. There's going to be spin to it, no matter which side you're talking about.



Statements like this confuse that point. There aren't 'Facts' so much are there are interpretations. unless we actually got to see what happend, its all a tapestry of what people saw and heard, all of which are subjected to bias, fear and a myriad of other emotions which influance how they seethe actual events. The truth is probably a combination of both stories, but even then a good deal is likely left out.

The hard facts, as we have them, are that Garrosh ordered a massive offencive against the Night Elves, particularly through Ashenvale. At the same time, Sylvaanis attacked and destroyed Alliance holdings in Lorderon. In responce, Wrynn ordered a counter offencive through the Barrens. Through these actions, Southshore, Silverwind Refuge and Camp T were effectivly destroyed. People died, and alot of civilians were likely caught in the crossfire. I tend to think that Southshore probably had the most civilian casualties, what with the plague and all, but thats interpretive.

The Alliance order was to let civilians through the line and retreat. The Horde saw civilians killed. It was probably a bit of both, but only a moron would think it hard to tell the differance between a 'soldier' and a 'civilian' when dealing witht he Tauren. Face it, because they don't have a sexual division of labour, and they've spent decades dealing with the Quilboar and Cantaur, each one is a skilled hunter and fighter. Its not like seeing a peasent woman in a skirt running down a street, where you have an obvious distinction.

Furthermore, Camp T was the largest horde settlement between Mulgore and the Crossroads, occupying a place on the Gold Road, and was in all likelyhood a relavent trade point. That makes it at least as viable a strategic location as South Shore.

This. very much this.

---------- Post added 2010-11-28 at 07:50 AM ----------

. I know Alliance players occasionally like to Disney up the Alliance in terms of honor and nobility

yep, they do. but have you read the description of the alliance? I think You will find that's the reason why:

Humans, night elves, dwarves, gnomes, draenei, and most recently worgen make up the illustrious Alliance. Proud and noble, courageous and wise, these races work together to preserve order in Azeroth.

The Alliance is driven by honor and tradition. Its rulers are champions of justice, hope, knowledge, and faith.

In a time when chaos and uncertainty reign, the Alliance remains steadfast in its determination to bring light to the darkest corners of the world.

[koranes]

kill them all and let the old gods sort them out. thats how war goes in azeroth.

[Deleted]

Revenge for Southshore, Hillsbrad Fields, Astrannar, Bolvar Fordragon, Shady Rest Inn... seriously, I can go on. The tauren deserve it for allying with the vile Forsaken and not hammering Garrosh into the ground with their massive totems.

Shady rest inn was burned by grimtotems, the same grimtotems that
SPOILERS



We (alliance) allied with in Stonetalon mountains so we can kick horde ass.

And astarnaar is not destroyed, because you put out the flames with a sofa and then annahilate the windriders with glavie throwers.

And really, the alliance tried to let the civilians from camp T go, but some were caught in the crossfire. An incident you might call it.
And thoose guys who loot camp T end up getting arrested.

[Romire]

Shady rest inn was burned by grimtotems, the same grimtotems that
SPOILERS



We (alliance) allied with in Stonetalon mountains so we can kick horde ass.

And astarnaar is not destroyed, because you put out the flames with a sofa and then annahilate the windriders with glavie throwers.

And really, the alliance tried to let the civilians from camp T go, but some were caught in the crossfire. An incident you might call it.
And thoose guys who loot camp T end up getting arrested.

Well whadda ya know

[mmorpg]

ive got one question about the gate, why wood? it burns just as easliy as camp taraujo

[Citaxis]

Well, your Tauren Wall thread has certainly generated some slightly different points of discussion.

yep, they do. but have you read the description of the alliance? I think You will find that's the reason why:

Humans, night elves, dwarves, gnomes, draenei, and most recently worgen make up the illustrious Alliance. Proud and noble, courageous and wise, these races work together to preserve order in Azeroth.

The Alliance is driven by honor and tradition. Its rulers are champions of justice, hope, knowledge, and faith.

In a time when chaos and uncertainty reign, the Alliance remains steadfast in its determination to bring light to the darkest corners of the world.

I'm guessing this person plays a human Retribution paladin. Not sure where you got that quote from, since I can't find it in any of Blizzard's faction descriptions. Well, wherever you got it, try reading the Horde's description as well. Neither side lives up to their hype.

In my opinion, both factions as a whole are good. They're just at war with each other fighting for what they believe it right.

A little bit of balance is always a good thing, but after some of the things both sides are done, I'm convinced both factions as a whole are, at best, morally ambiguous. Most of them seem to be fighting just because they can. Case in point, this guy saw something nasty.

oh god.. those bears.. the spider eggs... /heave

I did that quest yesterday, first time I've actually considered rerolling my one undead into something with a little less propensity to be...absolutely revolting. Dear lord, that quest was horrendously disgusting. Worst I've done on my non-undead 'toons was shooting barrels of plague at Scourge. I think everyone can appreciate doing that.

Putress was a member of the Forsaken. The excuse that 'it was Varimathras, not us' doesn't hold water. Putress was Forsaken and so were his followers. If Horde are going to keep complaining about an insignificant cluster of tents getting burned down, 'then it wasn't us, it was the soldiers violating their orders that are to blame'.

If you're even going to TRY and make that comparison, start by killing every single one of those soldiers yourself. I'm not sure how much punishment docking two weeks' pay is in the Alliance, but in the Horde, we execute traitors. Also, "obeying all orders except for 'let the civilians escape'" isn't quite the same as "betraying the entire race of the Forsaken by joining the Burning Legion, the faction responsible for their undead state".

Except Arthas never would have gone insane and lost his soul to Frostmourne and become a Death Knight if Ner'zhul (an orc) had never made a deal with the Burning Legion in the first place. After all, the Lich King was originally Ner'zhul trapped within the Frozen Throne. So therefore we can blame the orcs for the Scourge.

Now this is just slander. First, the Scourge was created by the Burning Legion, who were lured to both Draenor AND Azeroth by the Draenei, fleeing Kil'jaeden and Archimonde. Can't really blame them, since they weren't aware they were drawing attention to otherwise-inhabited worlds. Second, Ner'zhul did not make a deal with the Burning Legion. Gul'dan was responsible for the corrupting opportunities for the Burning Legion, Ner'zhul had his soul torn forcibly from his body and imprisoned in his own special Plane of Pain in the Twisting Nether by Kil'jaeden for attempting to resist. His choice was to stay in his Plane of Pain for all eternity until his warped soul was utterly destroyed from the torture, or escape with what remained of his twisted self and have a chance at revenge. Ner'zhul was a wise shaman, and a good warchief. Gul'dan was neither, and is personally responsible for a whole lot of reprehensible acts done to the orcs as a race thanks to his personal greed, lust for power, and complete lack of morals.



As far as the wall goes, I'm not quite sure what the tauren think they'll be keeping out of Mulgore, other than perhaps Dumass, the level 19 "player" lost somewhere in the Barrens looking for Tarren Mill. Hell, that's probably EXACTLY what they're trying to keep out. Has anyone else done his short-but-unimaginably-annoying quest line starting with Welcome to the Machine? I think the only thing that kept me from actually strangling my monitor was that he was so cheery about the whole thing. That guy could drive an Old God insane.

[Romire]

ive got one question about the gate, why wood? it burns just as easliy as camp taraujo

Why dont you ask the friendly tauren that, i'll just wait over here

[Deleted]

Well, but that is their description about themself.
Even Al-Qaida thinks of itself as driven by honor and being very noble, you can see how noble people are when they are in war.
And the Horde nor the Alliance is being very noble in this game.

nope. not there description about themselves. description by the dark moon fair prophet on blizzards new promotional website.

[Alraml]

I dare you to put a REAL good wooden wall on fire
You can't just simply turn it into ashes, good wooden walls are almost immune to fire.

Almost immune in the real world but in this world we have magic fire

[Deleted]

I'm guessing this person plays a human Retribution paladin. Not sure where you got that quote from, since I can't find it in any of Blizzard's faction descriptions. Well, wherever you got it, try reading the Horde's description as well. Neither side lives up to their hype.

naw... I actually play a human fire mage... and that wall looks fairly flammable to me.
And read the horde description. think you will find both reflect the Npc's opnions and actions in the game.
..mabye not so much the players though...