[TV] Doctor Who

[Anjerith]

A few interesting points;

River kills the best man she ever knew. It has really been confirmed that this is the Doctor.

When the Doctor dies in 'The Impossible Astronaut', note that River is not only present with Amy and Rory, she is also stunned when he is killed.

While 'Let's Kill Hitler' makes it look like River kills him that day, the previous facts make it sort of impossible for her to actually have killed him that day.

She *does* kill him eventually, this is something that we cannot deny because of the simple facts of her having his Screwdriver and knowing his true name.


As to the final incarnation of The Doctor being evil - we shouldn't take anything for granted that occured before the restart. Remember that Davies had to scrap and/or compress a good deal of the old material in order to get the BBC to approve the 9th's initial adventures. My stance on the Wholore as it stands now is that if it isn't mentioned in the new material - we can't take it as being part of the current Doctors history.

A good example of this is Davies' pointing out that the TimeWar that ended with the Doctor sealing his planet away was not the same Timewar that the 8th participated in.

[Arlee]

Yea the thing with River killing him in the astronaut suit kind of bothers me because apparently River has no memory of it, and yet she mentioned regenerating in New York which is where we saw her regenerate after she escaped from the suit... though that could just be her deep programing to not give away spoilers.

As far as her having his Screwdriver that has already been explained and it shouldn't have anything to do with her killing him. Remember he met her first in the Library episode and didn't know her at all. He knows how all that turns out and that she will have needed it, so when he comes across her close to that point in life (when she becomes a respected Archeologist) he will know to give it to her and to tell her his real name so that his past self will trust her.

[Deleted]

RIP sarah jane

[Blackspur]

Looks like they are *trying* for simulcast on all BBC One/Three and BBCAmerica.


As for the favorite companion question, I am pretty torn on the new-gen's;

Rose - Great character development. The back and forth dialogue between her and the 9th Doctor was great. Excellent during the 10th Doctor stories. Bit of a kick in the nuts that she settled for the clone in the end.

Martha - She is a better character in the Martha stories that take place during her year in exile (BBCAudio) than she ever was allowed to be in the actual show. Her appearances in Torchwood were great, which sort of implies she is a better character in the Doctor Who universe without actually being around the Doctor.

Donna - She and the 10th Doctor are magic, plain and simple. I will go ahead and say that Wilf can sort of be considered a companion during this point in the series and that he is just as good in his limited appearances as Donna. The conclusion of their story (and the 10th Doctors) was heartbreaking.

Amy and Rory - Some of Amy's first episodes were sort of overshadowed by the length of her skirt and, let's be honest, That scene in her bedroom. She is a fair enough companion. Gets really good when Rory starts to show up more and joins them on their adventures. And hey, it's always fun to have the bumbling 'average joe' around trying to do his best and sometimes getting it right.

River Song/Melody Pond - I am convinced that this character is perfect because Moffat created her and (to the best of my knowledge) is the only person to have *ever* written her in the show. Alex Kingston plays her perfectly and it helps that she and Matt Smith have such delightful chemistry.

I would also like to add that in retrospect I kind of wish that Mels was around for more than one episode.

Yeh it looks like they are trying to broadcast them on the same day in both the US and the UK, not at the same time though, so the UK still gets it 5-8 hrs before :P

[grandpab]

Yea the thing with River killing him in the astronaut suit kind of bothers me because apparently River has no memory of it, and yet she mentioned regenerating in New York which is where we saw her regenerate after she escaped from the suit... though that could just be her deep programing to not give away spoilers.

Time is so screwed up this show, her killing the doctor in the astronaut could be her future even though it was his past. River said in the latest episode that she regenerated into a toddler once, so how old she looks doesn't reflect her age at all. River also said once before that she kept moving backwards in the Doctors life. (I might not be explaining that last part right but you should get what I mean if you watch the show) Wibbley wobbley timey wimey....

[Deleted]

I live in the UK and Dr Who is like cultural institution here, but personally i cant stand it, my parents grew up with the old ones and they love it, but I just cant get into it at all. The bbc has made better shows, the tudors for example is just quality, and the office obviously a great bbc show. Dr who just doesnt seem to meet their standard to me - but hey each to their own right

OT - you should try "bbc iplayer" - its the on demand service from the bbc and you can usually get the shows there for two weeks after they air, however I dont know if this works outside the UK, because we have to pay license fee they are sometimes abit weird when it comes to people using their online services outside of the uk

[ELYPOP]

OT - you should try "bbc iplayer" - its the on demand service from the bbc and you can usually get the shows there for two weeks after they air, however I dont know if this works outside the UK, because we have to pay license fee they are sometimes abit weird when it comes to people using their online services outside of the uk

iPlayer only works for UK residents.

[Arlee]

Time is so screwed up this show, her killing the doctor in the astronaut could be her future even though it was his past. River said in the latest episode that she regenerated into a toddler once, so how old she looks doesn't reflect her age at all. River also said once before that she kept moving backwards in the Doctors life. (I might not be explaining that last part right but you should get what I mean if you watch the show)

It can't be though... He meets her at the end of her life and relatively young... she is supposed to meet him at the end of his life and when she was young. Which is why until this point she has always known what was coming (with the apparent exception of the thing in Utah).

I imagine it like two intersecting lines. One line if the life of the Doctor and the other is River's life. On the left end point is the end of River's life and younger doctor (Library Episode). Where they cross is the "When a Good Man Goes to War" episode. On the right side (which is roughly where we are now) is the beginning of River's Life and the end of the Doctor's... At least as we have been lead to understand it.

[gaxkang]

Shut UP, Hitler!

[ELYPOP]

It can't be though... He meets her at the end of her life and relatively young... she is supposed to meet him at the end of his life and when she was young. Which is why until this point she has always known what was coming (with the apparent exception of the thing in Utah).

I imagine it like two intersecting lines. One line if the life of the Doctor and the other is River's life. On the left end point is the end of River's life and younger doctor (Library Episode). Where they cross is the "When a Good Man Goes to War" episode. On the right side (which is roughly where we are now) is the beginning of River's Life and the end of the Doctor's... At least as we have been lead to understand it.

Exactly that. We've seen the end of River's, and the start of the Doctor's. Now, we're working towards the start of River's life, and the end of the Doctor's. So, the astronaut still may kill the Doctor, because the young River hasn't broken out of it yet + regenerated. She probably doesn't remember killing him because she was so young.

[Solidito]

Isn't that other Dr who flesh clone thingy still alive? I was thinking it'll be that that dies but tbh i doubt it'll be that simple, then again it could be.

[grandpab]

Isn't that other Dr who flesh clone thingy still alive? I was thinking it'll be that that dies but tbh i doubt it'll be that simple, then again it could be.

They never said that he made it but you saw him turn into a liquid before it blew up and it's probably safe to assume that it made out alive...I mean, he is the doctor even if it was just a copy.

[Rollo]

A few interesting points;

River kills the best man she ever knew. It has really been confirmed that this is the Doctor.

When the Doctor dies in 'The Impossible Astronaut', note that River is not only present with Amy and Rory, she is also stunned when he is killed.

While 'Let's Kill Hitler' makes it look like River kills him that day, the previous facts make it sort of impossible for her to actually have killed him that day.

She *does* kill him eventually, this is something that we cannot deny because of the simple facts of her having his Screwdriver and knowing his true name.

IIRC, the Doctor and the Astronaut have a few words before the gun is raised and fired. My opinion is that River IS the Astronaut, but its a future River (when compared to the one witnessing the death). It's a last act of love. This is when the Doctor tells River to save him in the Library, and she goes back. Its the end of the "timeline" for the both of them.

I'll have to watch the Hitler episode again, but I am remembering the mini people or the Doctor saying something about Time Travel is a funny thing, especially when attempting to arrest a criminal. Are you arresting them before their violent act, or after? This also occurs in their arriving to arrest Hitler a few years early. Maybe River is in prison for something she literally hasn't done yet in her timeline.

[Anjerith]

IIRC, the Doctor and the Astronaut have a few words before the gun is raised and fired. My opinion is that River IS the Astronaut, but its a future River (when compared to the one witnessing the death). It's a last act of love. This is when the Doctor tells River to save him in the Library, and she goes back. Its the end of the "timeline" for the both of them.

I'll have to watch the Hitler episode again, but I am remembering the mini people or the Doctor saying something about Time Travel is a funny thing, especially when attempting to arrest a criminal. Are you arresting them before their violent act, or after? This also occurs in their arriving to arrest Hitler a few years early. Maybe River is in prison for something she literally hasn't done yet in her timeline.

So your suggesting that the River that sees him killed is a River before she actually does the deed. That's interesting and I can sort of see it. I can't recall off the top of my head ... doesn't she get the invite in prison though? If not, this is a solid theory. I just cant see her being in prison before committing her crime, the fact of her being there (albeit on a 'as she wishes' basis) would prevent her from being very effective at murdering him.

As for the Flesh clone, I had a similar theory on it when he was shot. The major problem with that one is the clone was made way ahead of when the Doctor is shot and it has no TARDIS. So even if it is alive it would not have been able to have replaced the Doctor at that point in time. The Doctor himself was protective of the Doppelgangers as a unique species so he wouldn't have even let it entertain the notion of self-sacrifice. My two cents on where I ended up on that theory.

[grandpab]

IIRC, the Doctor and the Astronaut have a few words before the gun is raised and fired. My opinion is that River IS the Astronaut, but its a future River (when compared to the one witnessing the death).
.

I'm pretty sure the astronaut is River too. I just had to google this to make sure I had it right, but Rivers past is the Doctors future, so wouldn't that mean she's already killed him but the Doctor just isn't at that time yet? But then, why is right now the first time River has met the Doctor? Would that mean right now her past is at the time where she kills him? I think I could keep on going with questions on an endless loop lol, like then why was she worried she would kill him, if it was her past, wouldn't she have known that she was going to save him too?

[Arlee]

I am nearly 100% she received the invitation in prison. Also when they found the astronaut suit river makes the observation that whatever was in there had been grown into it and couldn't live outside of it. After that we see child River dying, and she regenerates. Not to mention River has explicitly stated more than a few times that they are traveling in different directions in time. Also, iirc there was a point where the Doctor asked her why she was in prison and she told him it was because she killed a good man, and she also mentions that she didn't know who he was at the time.

---------- Post added 2011-08-30 at 01:20 AM ----------

But then, why is right now the first time River has met the Doctor? Would that mean right now her past is at the time where she kills him? I think I could keep on going with questions on an endless loop lol, like then why was she worried she would kill him, if it was her past, wouldn't she have known that she was going to save him too?

We crossed the point where River knows what was coming to the point that now the Doctor knows and she does not. Basically every time the Doctor sees her she is getting younger, and every time she sees him he is getting younger.

As an elaboration... when we see for the first time River all out kissing the Doctor, to him that also was the first time, but for her she knew it was the last time when she realized to him they had never kissed before.

[Anjerith]

You know, just the last page is enough to make someone who doesn't know what we are talking abouts head explode.

[Arlee]

I was thinking that I was typing my last reply Anjerith lol

---------- Post added 2011-08-30 at 03:16 AM ----------

I just had another thought occur to me as I was drifting off to sleep (so this might be absolute rubbish).

If the doctor really dies at 900ish years old in Utah... well that means Matt Smith would have to be the last Doctor. Unless there was some way out of it. Now River might remember shooting him, but then she left so she didn't know what happened after she shot him. In the Utah episode she seemed to think she might be able to save him, until she scanned him... and then she just gave-up... and then they burned him (which is suddenly striking me as a bit odd).

Now we know from many past episodes that the Doctor is perfectly willing to make sacrifices for the greater good. Just as an off hand example (since I just watched last night and it is still fresh in my head) Pompeii. He told Donna that Pompeii was a fixed point and that it had to happen and as it turned out he had either left Pompeii explode and kill all those people or let the end of the world happen.

Now we know there was a Silence at the lake in Utah. Probably watching to make sure he died, or else something worse would happen. So either he used a flesh to get out of it (the flesh Doctor has already volunteered to (apparently) die before when he stayed behind and the Doctor let him)... so what if the stacks were even higher than just their group escaping? I could see the Doctor agreeing to that plan... Plus the hypothetical Doctor in the future knows how all this turns out... So it is also likely that the Doctor could get tired of the lonely life he leads, and when presented with the option of saving the Earth or himself... maybe he does actual go to his death. But that would be the end of the series.

Also... maybe River is imprisoned for killing a good man, but not by the people who tasked her with that. The priests are of a different order than the Headless... Certainly the people who raised her to do that never once referred to the Doctor as a good man and I am pretty sure the priest/marine that talked to the doctor about it in the episode where the angel got into Amy's eye referred to the man Rover killed as a good man.

Anywho, just some late night thoughts

[Anjerith]

So here is a question that someone else might be able to answer better than I can but;


Shouldn't the Shadow Proclamation or the Judoon be going after River for murdering the Doctor rather than the Clerics?

[pickley]

They never said that he made it but you saw him turn into a liquid before it blew up and it's probably safe to assume that it made out alive...I mean, he is the doctor even if it was just a copy.

I imagine he is still alive. Didnt the Doctor leave him the Sonic Screwdriver? He wouldn't just leave that technology lying around.