[Megathread] Skyrim Discussion

[Deleted]

This thread is way too mega to know whether this has been posted before, but here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcf1xnzt0OM

[Very Tired]

If I'm not mistaken, the only thing you get from joining the blades is giving up 3 followers, a short lasting dragonslaying potion and buff, and marking down where dragons are on your map, which I'm pretty sure the Greybeards do anyway. The Greybeards won't talk to you after you kill Paarthurnax and looks like they even will attack you. In that case you get to feel like a warrior against a frost mage.

Fun fact: The other greybeards don't talk because their voices are to powerful, even a whisper could kill you.

[Malthurius]

I made a topic, I'll just post it here.

Ok, don't get me wrong, I've been loving the game, it's one of the best games I've played in a while and is among the best that have been released this year. But the game has a huge flaw in it's perk and leveling system.

Crafting. is. broken.

Not in the sense that it doesn't work, but in the sense that if you put points into Smithing, enchanting, and alchemy, those three trees alone, you can do any kind of play style in the game, period. It undermines choice in the fact that 'why would you ever want to NOT put points into these 3 crafting trees.

Here is an example, on my game I was playing a heavy armored spell sword kind of character, I had no points in sneaking or anything in the thief perks. I had leveled enchanting and smithing to 100 but not alchemy. Even then I was able to make a set of heavy armor that gave me 160% increased sneak. I would cast muffle and do the thief thing in my heavy armor. In fact, I was so proficient at sneaking with this hand crafted armor alone that humanoid enemies would actually push me aside and still not notice me.

Another example is that you can make a set of armor that makes a school of magic cost nothing to cast. 100% spell cost reduction in easy to obtain.

Not good with 2 handers? Easy, you can get 160% increased 2 hander damage gear, heck, that's better than if you actually were spending perks in the 2 hander tree. Imagine if you were in addition to this armor.

All these examples are obtainable without alchemy, when you get into that it becomes ridiculous to the point of ruining the game.

I know you have a choice to use smithing or enchanting and you don't have to use it if you feel it's gamebreaking, but the choice to break the game shouldn't be there. I can't make a character build without smithing and enchanting now because I feel that I'm being suboptimal, why wouldn't you make your character as strong as possible? Why wouldn't you make all play styles available to one character?

I'm playing on master difficulty just because it's way too easy on any other setting.

Do you guys think this needs to be nerfed through patching?

(Shouldn't mega threads be stickied if we're expected to post anything related to the game here?)

[Deleted]

I really think Speechcraft should have had Perks to improve the shouts; or at the very least reduce the Cooldowns a bit.

[Blackout15]

I really think Speechcraft should have had Perks to improve the shouts; or at the very least reduce the Cooldowns a bit.

I agree....or just something to reduce the time between shouts besides the blessing of talos.....seriously, though call storm is awesome its cooldown makes it basically useless, 10min wait until i can use another shout? no thank you.

[Umbra]

I know you have a choice to use smithing or enchanting and you don't have to use it if you feel it's gamebreaking, but the choice to break the game shouldn't be there.

Why not? Is your act of "game-breaking" actively making someone else's experience worse? Is anyone other than yourself affected by your playstyle? Do you break the game for anyone except yourself? No, you don't - so why should other people be punished for something that doesn't affect them?

This is the sort of mentality that people need to get out of. Skyrim isn't about being "optimal" or being able to one-shot everything you encounter. It's not about spening three hours running back and forth between a forge, an enchanting table and a merchant with Lydia carrying your dagger-shaped burdens. It's not a competition. You don't have to be the best, you don't have to be number one. Skyrim isn't about that. It's about having fun. You know, like games used to be about when you were a kid? Before "min-maxing", before theorycrafting and googling spreadsheets to find out what makes you push bigger numbers.

Skyrim isn't meant to be played like WoW. There's no such thing as "balance", since that would imply two or more sides being compared and measured against each other. Since Skyrim is entirely a single-player game, that doesn't exist. You don't have anyone to compare yourself with, so "balance" becomes an invalid issue. If you want to level Smithing and Enchanting to 100, dealing enough damage to strike down Alduin in a single blow... go ahead.

I have a Khajiit thief that I level almost entirely through Thieves' Guild missions and pickpocketing whoever I can find. She has absolutely no combat skills, having little experience with dungeon-delving outside of a brief venture into Bleak Falls Barrow. She has her trusty Uthgerd by her side, and has recently picked up some basic illusion spells to compliment her already stealthy talents.

I'm having fun. Why won't you?

[Poppincaps]

Why not? Is your act of "game-breaking" actively making someone else's experience worse? Is anyone other than yourself affected by your playstyle? Do you break the game for anyone except yourself? No, you don't - so why should other people be punished for something that doesn't affect them?

This is the sort of mentality that people need to get out of. Skyrim isn't about being "optimal" or being able to one-shot everything you encounter. It's not about spening three hours running back and forth between a forge, an enchanting table and a merchant with Lydia carrying your dagger-shaped burdens. It's not a competition. You don't have to be the best, you don't have to be number one. Skyrim isn't about that. It's about having fun. You know, like games used to be about when you were a kid? Before "min-maxing", before theorycrafting and googling spreadsheets to find out what makes you push bigger numbers.

Skyrim isn't meant to be played like WoW. There's no such thing as "balance", since that would imply two or more sides being compared and measured against each other. Since Skyrim is entirely a single-player game, that doesn't exist. You don't have anyone to compare yourself with, so "balance" becomes an invalid issue. If you want to level Smithing and Enchanting to 100, dealing enough damage to strike down Alduin in a single blow... go ahead.

I have a Khajiit thief that I level almost entirely through Thieves' Guild missions and pickpocketing whoever I can find. She has absolutely no combat skills, having little experience with dungeon-delving outside of a brief venture into Bleak Falls Barrow. She has her trusty Uthgerd by her side, and has recently picked up some basic illusion spells to compliment her already stealthy talents.

I'm having fun. Why won't you?

Wow... you just put alot of words in his mouth... 1. He never said he wasn't having fun. 2. He didn't say he played to min-max 3. There is balance in the game. It is no fun to run around 1 shotting everything just because I thought, "Hey it'd be cool if I could make myself some cool enchanted dragon armor." 4. Why should something game breaking be allowed in the game? That doesn't even make sense? It's not even the enchanting/alchemy exploit I'm talking about here. Simply by getting my smithing and enchanting to 100 I've made the game extremely easy. Sure, I could take the gear off, but I've already invested alot of time and cash into crafting it.

I love Skyrim and it is by far one of my favorite games this console generation (second only to Fallout 3). I can bear same bugs, but the balance in the game needs some serious work.

[Umbra]

Wow... you just put alot of words in his mouth... 1. He never said he wasn't having fun. 2. He didn't say he played to min-max 3. There is balance in the game. It is no fun to run around 1 shotting everything just because I thought, "Hey it'd be cool if I could make myself some cool enchanted dragon armor." 4. Why should something game breaking be allowed in the game? That doesn't even make sense? It's not even the enchanting/alchemy exploit I'm talking about here. Simply by getting my smithing and enchanting to 100 I've made the game extremely easy. Sure, I could take the gear off, but I've already invested alot of time and cash into crafting it.

I love Skyrim and it is by far one of my favorite games this console generation (second only to Fallout 3). I can bear same bugs, but the balance in the game needs some serious work.

I have done many a thing in my time: putting words in someone's mouth is not one of them. He explicitly wrote a lengthy post complaining about the game and comparing it to some standard that doesn't even apply to it in the first place; odds are that he's not having fun. That is probably because of said mentality, the need to min-max and be "optimal".

For 2), yes, he was talking about min-maxing.

I can't make a character build without smithing and enchanting now because I feel that I'm being suboptimal, why wouldn't you make your character as strong as possible?

3) No, there's no such thing as balance. There's playstyle. I compare the dragon-slaying, armor-crafting, spell-flinging war hero to my Khajiit thief: is one of the characters worse than the other? Nope. Just because one can't do what the other can, it doesn't mean that the game is "broken" or in some other status where it needs to be fixed. Sure, you could use enchantments to make it look like you have 100 Sneak, but that doesn't mean you actually have 100 Sneak. You can't bypass the perk tree and get Shadow Warrior straight off the bat just because you enchanted that dragonbone suit of yours.

4) That's the thing. It doesn't break the game. You put effort into the game, and are rewarded for it. That reward has no negative consequences for anyone except for yourself. You are not impacting anyone else by receiving that reward. How is that "breaking the game" if I may ask?

[Deleted]

Why not? Is your act of "game-breaking" actively making someone else's experience worse? Is anyone other than yourself affected by your playstyle? Do you break the game for anyone except yourself? No, you don't - so why should other people be punished for something that doesn't affect them?

This is the sort of mentality that people need to get out of. Skyrim isn't about being "optimal" or being able to one-shot everything you encounter. It's not about spening three hours running back and forth between a forge, an enchanting table and a merchant with Lydia carrying your dagger-shaped burdens. It's not a competition. You don't have to be the best, you don't have to be number one. Skyrim isn't about that. It's about having fun. You know, like games used to be about when you were a kid? Before "min-maxing", before theorycrafting and googling spreadsheets to find out what makes you push bigger numbers.

Skyrim isn't meant to be played like WoW. There's no such thing as "balance", since that would imply two or more sides being compared and measured against each other. Since Skyrim is entirely a single-player game, that doesn't exist. You don't have anyone to compare yourself with, so "balance" becomes an invalid issue. If you want to level Smithing and Enchanting to 100, dealing enough damage to strike down Alduin in a single blow... go ahead.

I have a Khajiit thief that I level almost entirely through Thieves' Guild missions and pickpocketing whoever I can find. She has absolutely no combat skills, having little experience with dungeon-delving outside of a brief venture into Bleak Falls Barrow. She has her trusty Uthgerd by her side, and has recently picked up some basic illusion spells to compliment her already stealthy talents.

I'm having fun. Why won't you?

I disagree with most of what you said. The option to "have fun" is there anyway in the form of difficulty slider and console commands. For some players challenge is fun. If you turn your difficulty to master, you have the right to expect some challenge, no?

That said, I'm having fun too but only because I had to invent some rules to add to the challenge. For one, using wait and fast travel is not allowed and buying crafting mats from stores is also not allowed. Not the best solution but works so far.. still, the game should pose the challenge all by itself. But then again, all TES games have been like that. They're really hard at the start and then suddenly you are god. Stuff just scales too well and good gear is too available.

[Umbra]

I disagree with most of what you said. The option to "have fun" is there anyway in the form of difficulty slider and console commands. For some players challenge is fun. If you turn your difficulty to master, you have the right to expect some challenge, no?

That said, I'm having fun too but only because I had to invent some rules to add to the challenge. For one, using wait and fast travel is not allowed and buying crafting mats from stores is also not allowed. Not the best solution but works so far.. still, the game should pose the challenge all by itself. But then again, all TES games have been like that. They're really hard at the start and then suddenly you are god. Stuff just scales too well and good gear is too available.

Having fun isn't an "option", it's a choice. You either do what you think is fun, or you don't. If you have fun levelling enchanting and smithing, nothing wrong with that.

If you consciously give yourself a challenge by upping the difficulty to Master, then... why would you take that challenge away by using smithing / enchanting? If you use smithing / enchanting to boost yourself to godly levels, you lose that right to expect a challenge. It's like going to a low-level zone in WoW and gank lowbies, complaining that their gear isn't as good as yours.

You can't expect a game to adapt to your specific playstyle just because you want it to. If you want to give yourself rules, that's fine, but don't try to make the game superimpose those rules on everyone else. This game is for everyone, not just for you.

[Poppincaps]

I have done many a thing in my time: putting words in someone's mouth is not one of them. He explicitly wrote a lengthy post complaining about the game and comparing it to some standard that doesn't even apply to it in the first place; odds are that he's not having fun. That is probably because of said mentality, the need to min-max and be "optimal".

For 2), yes, he was talking about min-maxing.


3) No, there's no such thing as balance. There's playstyle. I compare the dragon-slaying, armor-crafting, spell-flinging war hero to my Khajiit thief: is one of the characters worse than the other? Nope. Just because one can't do what the other can, it doesn't mean that the game is "broken" or in some other status where it needs to be fixed. Sure, you could use enchantments to make it look like you have 100 Sneak, but that doesn't mean you actually have 100 Sneak. You can't bypass the perk tree and get Shadow Warrior straight off the bat just because you enchanted that dragonbone suit of yours.

4) That's the thing. It doesn't break the game. You put effort into the game, and are rewarded for it. That reward has no negative consequences for anyone except for yourself. You are not impacting anyone else by receiving that reward. How is that "breaking the game" if I may ask?

I now see where he said he was being sub optimal, so I apologize for that part, but he did say he was having fun and he also said it was one of the best games he's ever played. I love the game as well, but I do realize that it is flawed. Also, balance doesn't only apply to you vs. another playstyle. In a single player game it applies to you vs. the npcs you face. I am not talking about the balance between the different classes, I am talking about how I can enter a room and one shot everything I come across. Also, it doesn't have to effect other people to break the game, because it is a single player game. Many people have complained that once you get to 100 smithing and enchanting enemies have no real chance of killing you if you don't play extremely recklessly. It may not break the games for others, but it breaks the game for me.

---------- Post added 2011-12-21 at 06:45 PM ----------

Having fun isn't an "option", it's a choice. You either do what you think is fun, or you don't. If you have fun levelling enchanting and smithing, nothing wrong with that.

If you consciously give yourself a challenge by upping the difficulty to Master, then... why would you take that challenge away by using smithing / enchanting? If you use smithing / enchanting to boost yourself to godly levels, you lose that right to expect a challenge. It's like going to a low-level zone in WoW and gank lowbies, complaining that their gear isn't as good as yours.

You can't expect a game to adapt to your specific playstyle just because you want it to. If you want to give yourself rules, that's fine, but don't try to make the game superimpose those rules on everyone else. This game is for everyone, not just for you.

How do we lose the right to expect a challenge? Just because I have the best gear in the game doesn't mean I should be able to destroy absolutely everything. Maybe the typical bandit shouldn't give me problems, but when I can 1 or 2 shot a dragon priest before they can even get a cast off... that's a problem. I understand that if they buffed the enemies it would give the people who don't use smithing and enchanting a very difficult time, but I'm saying they should nerf smithing and enchanting. Make legendary give less armor. Lessen the effects of enchants... something. Because when I enchanted my gear I didn't know that the game would be a faceroll-fest.

[Umbra]

I can definitely see where you're coming from. However, that's another thing with Skyrim - you can level as you please. You don't have to get 100 Smithing / Enchanting if you don't feel like it. If it makes the game less fun for you - as you say, makes you able to one- or two-shot everything you come across - then I don't see why you see the need to do it. Unless it's just for getting those extra perks / health out of those last few levels to 81, but in that case you could just level the skill and not use the enchanted crafted item anyhow.

What I'm saying is that this "game-breaking" is a choice done by a player, and not an inherent flaw in the system. Since that choice doesn't affect anyone else's experience, I don't see it as that big of a deal.

Probably should mention that I do love the game - having logged 122 hours as of right now - and it's definitely one of the best games I've ever played if not the best. I just want everyone to be able to play it the way they want to, without receiving nerfs to things that weren't really a problem in the first place.

[Poppincaps]

I can definitely see where you're coming from. However, that's another thing with Skyrim - you can level as you please. You don't have to get 100 Smithing / Enchanting if you don't feel like it. If it makes the game less fun for you - as you say, makes you able to one- or two-shot everything you come across - then I don't see why you see the need to do it. Unless it's just for getting those extra perks / health out of those last few levels to 81, but in that case you could just level the skill and not use the enchanted crafted item anyhow.

What I'm saying is that this "game-breaking" is a choice done by a player, and not an inherent flaw in the system. Since that choice doesn't affect anyone else's experience, I don't see it as that big of a deal.

Probably should mention that I do love the game - having logged 122 hours as of right now - and it's definitely one of the best games I've ever played if not the best. I just want everyone to be able to play it the way they want to, without receiving nerfs to things that weren't really a problem in the first place.

But why should Bethesda be excused from doing that? So, because I wanted to wear dragon armor (which is only attainable through crafting) and I wanted to enchant it I am SOL? As I said before, I have invested time and gold into crafting my set. I shouldn't be asked to not wear it, Bethesda should make it balanced. Maybe I chose to break my game, but it's like the LFR exploit at the beginning of 4.3. Yes, the guys shouldn't have done it, but they should've have been able to do it in the first place. Besides, I didn't know it would break my game. I do now and I probably won't be using smithing/enchanting on my other characters, but it shouldn't be so OP in the first place. Also, you act as if, since it doesn't effect your game that it doesn't matter. This issue has been discussed on many, many pages of this thread and just because you aren't experiencing them doesn't mean they aren't a problem. I mean I haven't experienced many bugs, and the ones I have weren't a very big deal, but I realize they are there and they shouldn't be.

[Deleted]

Having fun isn't an "option", it's a choice. You either do what you think is fun, or you don't. If you have fun levelling enchanting and smithing, nothing wrong with that.

If you consciously give yourself a challenge by upping the difficulty to Master, then... why would you take that challenge away by using smithing / enchanting? If you use smithing / enchanting to boost yourself to godly levels, you lose that right to expect a challenge. It's like going to a low-level zone in WoW and gank lowbies, complaining that their gear isn't as good as yours.

You can't expect a game to adapt to your specific playstyle just because you want it to. If you want to give yourself rules, that's fine, but don't try to make the game superimpose those rules on everyone else. This game is for everyone, not just for you.

That's an odd question.. and incorrect comparison. I wouldn't be going into a lowbie zone but would be 2 shoting ancient dragons and such. But to answer that, it's like playing chess VS AI. If you set the AI to hard, you expect it to be good, right instead of it being bad and you having to invent rules to even things up like not using some pieces or deliberately making some stupid move every 5 turns.

And as for the last comment, I'm not going to insult you but seriously wth? The game is for everyone, that's why there is the difficulty slider! If easy was too hard, then you might have some point but I'm talking about master. And even then, if easy was too hard, you could just add yourself the best armor and, a million gold and set all your skills to 100 with console commands.

[Umbra]

That's an odd question.. and incorrect comparison. I wouldn't be going into a lowbie zone but would be 2 shoting ancient dragons and such. But to answer that, it's like playing chess VS AI. If you set the AI to hard, you expect it to be good, right instead of it being bad and you having to invent rules to even things up like not using some pieces or deliberately making some stupid move every 5 turns.

Except that it isn't. Enchanting yourself to godlike levels puts you into that perspective. For the chess analogy, imagine that you're Garry Kasparov loading up a Chess game on your computer. For the average person, that would be hard. For you, who has become much better than the average person through commitment and choice, it's fairly trivial.

And as for the last comment, I'm not going to insult you but seriously wth? The game is for everyone, that's why there is the difficulty slider! If easy was too hard, then you might have some point but I'm talking about master. And even then, if easy was too hard, you could just add yourself the best armor and, a million gold and set all your skills to 100 with console commands.

You're talking about making Master harder for everyone by imposing some sort of trivial ruleset on it without any sort of reasoning behind it, other than the consequences of your own actions. I retort, saying that it isn't necessary. Not everyone wants to play Master like you, why force that on them?

[Deleted]

Except that it isn't. Enchanting yourself to godlike levels puts you into that perspective. For the chess analogy, imagine that you're Garry Kasparov loading up a Chess game on your computer. For the average person, that would be hard. For you, who has become much better than the average person through commitment and choice, it's fairly trivial.

You're talking about making Master harder for everyone by imposing some sort of trivial ruleset on it without any sort of reasoning behind it, other than the consequences of your own actions. I retort, saying that it isn't necessary. Not everyone wants to play Master like you, why force that on them?

Seriously, what are you talking about? It gets so easy, as in you one shot things on master. If you take your WoW comparison, it's like one shoting bosses in hardmode raids. The correct solution in that case would not be suggesting that players shouldn't enchant and gem their gear, it would be buffing the raids or nerfing the gear.

And what rules are you talking about? All I said is that I want to be able to play on master and have the game be really challenging in ANY way, don't care how while not inventing rules to make it so and while being able to use ALL game mechanics to the fullest short of abusing bugs or cheating. Now it's kind of challenging only till level 25-30 then it's too easy.

[Umbra]

Seriously, what are you talking about? It gets so easy, as in you one shot things on master. If you take your WoW comparison, it's like one shoting bosses in hardmode raids. The correct solution in that case would not be suggesting that players shouldn't enchant and gem their gear, it would be buffing the raids or nerfing the gear.

And what rules are you talking about? All I said is that I want to be able to play on master and have the game be really challenging in ANY way, don't care how while not inventing rules to make it so and while being able to use ALL game mechanics to the fullest short of abusing bugs or cheating. Now it's kind of challenging only till level 25-30 then it's too easy.

If Skyrim was an MMO where the main goal was to kill bosses and obtain loot from them, this would be a problem. However, Skyrim is a single-player RPG where the main goal is to have fun. (It is for me, at least.) You do realize that the only get "easy" because you choose to make yourself a god? Don't use smithing and enchanting, and you'll have your challenge. It's not a constraint, it's simply playing the game without breaking it.

You're completely free to do so. You have a situation where you can have a challenge, yet you consciously decide to take the other option; buff yourself to godlike status. Then, you have the nerve to complain about things being too easy, when you are the reason the game becomes a faceroll.

[Deleted]

If Skyrim was an MMO where the main goal was to kill bosses and obtain loot from them, this would be a problem. However, Skyrim is a single-player RPG where the main goal is to have fun. (It is for me, at least.) You do realize that the only get "easy" because you choose to make yourself a god? Don't use smithing and enchanting, and you'll have your challenge. It's not a constraint, it's simply playing the game without breaking it.

You're completely free to do so. You have a situation where you can have a challenge, yet you consciously decide to take the other option; buff yourself to godlike status. Then, you have the nerve to complain about things being too easy, when you are the reason the game becomes a faceroll.

Crafting skills are skills like any other. Is there some god stone I missed with a warning "if you click here you become srsly powerful and kill things rly fast"? I'm not choosing anything, by using a skill provided by the game. The same problem occurs in Oblivion too but there aren't even any crafting skills there. What's your solution there then, play it naked cause armor was created by the devil and makes you a god?

[OrcsRLame]

Seriously, what are you talking about? It gets so easy, as in you one shot things on master. If you take your WoW comparison, it's like one shoting bosses in hardmode raids. The correct solution in that case would not be suggesting that players shouldn't enchant and gem their gear, it would be buffing the raids or nerfing the gear.

And what rules are you talking about? All I said is that I want to be able to play on master and have the game be really challenging in ANY way, don't care how while not inventing rules to make it so and while being able to use ALL game mechanics to the fullest short of abusing bugs or cheating. Now it's kind of challenging only till level 25-30 then it's too easy.

It's always been like that. You have to understand, that they let you do what you want in Elder Scrolls, and that applies to game mechanics as well. If you want to be a god on master mode, then you can be a god. Maxing out a character in an Elder Scrolls game is a choice, not a requirement. They make the challenges, if you want to make yourself more powerful than the challenges, that's your own fault.

In Morrowind, with absolutely NO exploits, you could reach virtually infinite damage, like oh say, 100 billion strength if you wanted. And max level was over 75000. To use your wow analogy, it would be like if Blizzard only made raids for level 60. And hardmodes were designed to be challenging at level 60. But then Blizzard lets you grind to level up all the way to 10000. Someone spends their whole life getting to 10000, they then bitch at Blizzard when they're one shotting bosses. It's just not how the game was designed to be played.

The game is designed for significantly weaker characters so that people that want to can become godlike. Honestly, I wish they'd bring back the Morrowind infinite levels of power, just to make it painfully obvious that the option to out-power the challenges is intended.

---------- Post added 2011-12-22 at 01:37 AM ----------

Crafting skills are skills like any other. Is there some god stone I missed with a warning "if you click here you become srsly powerful and kill things rly fast"? I'm not choosing anything, by using a skill provided by the game. The same problem occurs in Oblivion too but there aren't even any crafting skills there. What's your solution there then, play it naked cause armor was created by the devil and makes you a god?

Well for one, Oblivion is designed really poorly for an Elder Scrolls game. It's not nearly as polished as any other in the series. If you wish to make Oblivion hard though, turn the difficulty all the way up, and make a character with no racial bonuses to your chosen major skills. Then reach max level, and enjoy 30k HP Xivilai's that 2 shot you through your capped armor. Just don't use chameleon or the game once again becomes stupid easy.

[zaoly]

You people want more challenge? Master start to finish, no perk, no stats, no deliberately level up skills, lvl 1, no follower, no upgrading weapon/armor, stop bitching and go play.