I only sleep.. (Y'Shaarj)

[Golden Yak]

Y'Shaarj may have suffered greater damage than the other Old Gods, since he was 'slain' by the Titans. Who knows what kind of exotic energies they brought to bear against him.

We know that C'Thun lay in Ahn'Qiraj for thousands of years after the battle with the Titans. The prophecy of C'Thun mentioned that it was believed that an Old God had fallen... it may have referred to Y'Shaarj, or it may be that C'Thun suffered considerable damage in his battle with the Titans, and his body lay in Ahn'Qiraj until it could regenerate.

This may be the state Yogg-Saron is in now - we've killed their physical bodies, but haven't hit them with enough power to kill them to the degree that Y'Shaarj was. So either their essence will spill out and pollute the lands as Y'Shaarj's did, or they'll fester underground and attempt to regenerate their bodies as C'Thun once did.

[Wildmoon]

I don't really think that it's hard to believe that Old Gods couldn't die. Cenarius and Malorne were killed before but they came back anyway.

[Snorri]

I hope we get to see Y'Shaarj in Orgrimmar, at least his influence and powers. No way we are defeating the remnants of an old god in a scenario instead of a raid. He might fuse with Garrosh and gain a body.

[Fus Ro Yay]

I was under the impression that the old gods couldnt "die" as they were somehow connected to the world itself, like a virus wich would cause the world to die with them. wich in turn is why the titans (who loved the world they had created) banished them to another realm or imprisoned them somewhere. wich is why we only get to fight against their husks?
also, the old gods and their mortal husks corrupt the world itself (*cough* 99%, reorigination requested *cough*)

edit: the titans made "living" stuff out of metal and stone, the old gods 'corrupted' us into flesh and bone (curse of flesh) wich is further improving my belief in the old gods corrupting and infesting the world itself, and to destroy them would mean the end of azeroth.

im almost positive that i have read that somewhere...?
ofcourse, i might be completely mistaken here.

[KrakHed]

I don't really think that it's hard to believe that Old Gods couldn't die. Cenarius and Malorne were killed before but they came back anyway.

A very good point.

Why shouldn't the Old Gods be able to match, or even surpass, the Ancients in immortality?

And I'm pretty sure the Titans kept his heart in a box for a reason.

[Hitei]

I don't really think that it's hard to believe that Old Gods couldn't die. Cenarius and Malorne were killed before but they came back anyway.

To begin with there's nothing that suggests that the Old Gods can be killed.
C'thun was left for dead by the titans, and recovered, and then "killed" by the mortal races, and recovered again to fuse with Cho'gall.
Yogg-saron is certainly angry when you "kill" him, but he doesn't sound like someone who is about to be gone forever, he just continues to threaten you like you've won the battle but not the war.

[GennGreymane]

Ah star fox we meet again muwhahahahahahaha


damn it andross you have scarred my memory!

[rogoth]

the thing that interests me the most about those sound files, is the line "merely a toy, left behind by the usurper", singular, now, we know the pantheon is made up of both Vanir and Aesir titans, but the name "pantheon" is a collective term for them, and is not a single individual, and "usurper" is basically another word for supplanting, or removing something by force from another who was there prior, so, if this is a singular being, who is he referencing? maybe sargeras? seeing as the next expansion is 95% certain to be return of the the burning legion and all that jazz, so who or what is this god of old gods talking about? i wanna know goddamnit!

[Golden Yak]

I was under the impression that the old gods couldnt "die" as they were somehow connected to the world itself, like a virus wich would cause the world to die with them. wich in turn is why the titans (who loved the world they had created) banished them to another realm or imprisoned them somewhere. wich is why we only get to fight against their husks?

The Titan archivum in Ulduar says that the Old Gods have infested Azeroth so thoroughly that the Titans would destroy Azeroth if they destroyed the Old Gods.

No one was exactly sure what that meant until we heard about the death of Y'Shaarj. He died, and his essence infected the land, poisoning Pandaria. The Titans locked away his remains and placed the mogu and Ra-Den to watch over it. Presumably the Titans realized that destroying the rest of the Old Gods would have the same result, so they opted to imprison them all instead in various places.

We've fought them, but they were either still recovering from their battle with the Titans (C'Thun) or still mostly locked away (Yogg-Saron). The status of N'Zoth and any other Old Gods is a mystery!

the thing that interests me the most about those sound files, is the line "merely a toy, left behind by the usurper", singular, now, we know the pantheon is made up of both Vanir and Aesir titans, but the name "pantheon" is a collective term for them, and is not a single individual, and "usurper" is basically another word for supplanting, or removing something by force from another who was there prior, so, if this is a singular being, who is he referencing? maybe sargeras? seeing as the next expansion is 95% certain to be return of the the burning legion and all that jazz, so who or what is this god of old gods talking about? i wanna know goddamnit!

Data-mined files revealed a 'mogu titan' model - sound files imply he was set up to guard something. Presumably he's a boss in the Dark Heart scenario and his purpose was to guard the Heart of Y'Shaarj. Very likely what the dark whispers are referring to - a 'toy' of the 'usurpers' (an agent of the Titans).

[roahn the warlock]

I believe they went overboard with "Titans erased him from history". But I believe they ment they found a way to stop him from ever coming back. And we just messed it up.

perhaps that final boss in ToH has something to do with it

[Deleted]

This makes for some curious development, after all, we all came, faught and killed C'thun and Yogg Saron, but if Y'shaarj suggests his essence still lingers and can not be killed, does this mean the other two old gods essence lingers on the same.

Very likely. This is perhaps the part where their parasitic symbiosis with Azeroth comes to play. As long as they keep their grip on Azeorth, that long they will keep on coming back no matter how many times we slay them. It kind of remindes me of Gohma Viltra from Asura's Wrath. I guess at some point we will have to go deeper into Azeroth to find their cores or hearts of sort.

Also the whole "dead" issue. WoW proved agian and agian that death is merely a setback... no I'm dead serious. Just take a look at Cenarius or Arugal.

[Immitis]

I only now noticed (slow me) that, aside from Y'Shaarj having a pretty scary voice in comparison to C'thun's and Yogg-Saron's voices, there's also this was there to surprise me:




"Mh.. I only sleep...".




Now I know that Blizzard said Y'shaarj is 100% keel-keel X_X-dead, but think about it.




They were asked a question about a character that was pretty new back then and there was only one thing they could say to keep it secret. Outright admitting they were going to utilize Y'shaarj would kill that secret off, and saying "We can't tell you yet" would be indirectly confirming it for people with a higher amount of brain cells than the average ant. (No offence, but "we can't tell you yet" is basically outright confirming it)



Thus, they could've gone with the safest way of answering that question and keeping their idea hush-hush.



I'm not saying this has to be the case, but just that it doesn't seem so strange to begin with. The quote "I only sleep.." only supports that idea. I mean.. he's supposed to be dead. 100% dead. How is his echo talking to us -- why is his heart still alive in a cage of sorts, and why does he talk about only sleeping?


After all, the Old God-type of sleep is what happens when their mortal husks are slain and they have to recover.



Your thoughts?

maybe what garroshs men do to him bring him back a little bit or something. otherwise it just messes up everything about the sha and whatnot.

yashaarj being dead dead and not beaten like cthun and yogg filled in the plothole about "why is there no northrend or silithus sha or whatever" if yashaarj isnt actually dead then they would need to reexplain that plothole

[foxHeart]

To begin with there's nothing that suggests that the Old Gods can be killed.

Dave Kosak: Y'shaarj breathed love and exhaled hate, inhaled peace and breathed violence... Plus, his name was y'SHAarj. It's pretty safe to connect the dots. But Y'shaarj itself is very, very, very dead.

idk how Blizz can say 'o yea, the reason the old gods weren't terminated is cuz they would have like totally taken azeroth with them!' A few expansions later we're introduced to an apparently dead old gold and what repercussions have we seen from that? It spawned angry little sha babies. Did it end Azeroth? Nope.

But it's all a moot point I suppose - Blizz seems to be going back on their word and resurrecting someone they've said was "very, very" very" dead (three "very"s would seem to me to imply that he's beyond resurrection cause he's just that destroyed). Regardless, the point is that the lore either conflicts or doesn't have a plan.

[Immitis]

Dave Kosak: Y'shaarj breathed love and exhaled hate, inhaled peace and breathed violence... Plus, his name was y'SHAarj. It's pretty safe to connect the dots. But Y'shaarj itself is very, very, very dead.

idk how Blizz can say 'o yea, the reason the old gods weren't terminated is cuz they would have like totally taken azeroth with them!' A few expansions later we're introduced to an apparently dead old gold and what repercussions have we seen from that? It spawned angry little sha babies. Did it end Azeroth? Nope.

But it's all a moot point I suppose - Blizz seems to be going back on their word and resurrecting someone they've said was "very, very" very" dead (three "very"s would seem to me to imply that he's beyond resurrection cause he's just that destroyed). Regardless, the point is that the lore either conflicts or doesn't have a plan.

well technically they just elaborated that it was only if they killed ALL the old gods would azeroth die. still it does reopen the plothole they had fixed regarding the sha.

---------- Post added 2013-03-31 at 02:25 AM ----------

i guess they could always come up with some lame excuse like "yashaarj at the last minute used almost all of his remaining power to create the sha in order to fool the titans"

but then they would have to fix another plothole and say something like "azeroth was the only planet where they fought old gods on one of their own creations" or something like that.

either way yashaarj being alive breaks lore, him being rezzed doesnt really break it though

[Millie]

Seems pretty standard for the Lovecraftian inspired old god to be dead, yet sleeping.

In his house at R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu waits dreaming.

[BcShane13]

Maybe Wrathion is going to (un)intentionally ressurect him. I mean he uses some of the materials we bring him but he is researching ways to create life and taking all these crazy components. Plus we do not know what he is really after.

[Immitis]

Maybe Wrathion is going to (un)intentionally ressurect him. I mean he uses some of the materials we bring him but he is researching ways to create life and taking all these crazy components. Plus we do not know what he is really after.

i dont think wrathion shows up in the scenario, also blizzard has confirmed what he is after, a way to either prevent or combat a legion invasion

[Marn]

I have nothing really concrete to add here but I want to explain a hypothesis I formed after having experienced Exalted Klaxxi and first learned of Y'shaarj.

First though, regarding, "why is there no Northrend or Silithus sha or whatever," I think is because powerful sorcery was not used on them the way it was for Y'shaarj. Or at least no creation of the physical manifestations of sha-like beings anyway...as someone mentioned, the sha were manifested into corporeality. Perhaps they exist more ephemerally in other places.

So anyway, I was seriously getting chills when I went into the underground chapel dedicated to Y'shaarj. We found out that all this time, the Mantid we were working for are essentially in alignment with the Twilight Hammer. Also this explained their relation as cousins to Nerubians as well as Qiraji (and you'll remember that the Mantid were eluded to much earlier when we first learned that Nerub and Qiraj were infact related; as they were cousin races to eachother they also had a third that was further east and south). The Mantid's huge hulking Kunchong beasts resemble the Qiraji's behemoths like Buru the Gorger don't they? And in Azjol'Nerub, huge scarab behemoths run all over the place and they have a very similar look to the Kunchongs and Gorgers.

Made me think that there is more evidence to support that all the Old Gods were actually split from Y'shaarj in the first place; as well as that the various insectoid races could potentially all be offshoots of one original insect race. Could be that as seven sha were split from Y'shaarj's breath, 6 Old Gods were created like cutting the heads off of hydras (and hydras are a favored pet of the Old Gods).

Therefore when people show the 5-pointed map creating a star with points in Silithus, Hyjal, Northrend, Tirisfal Glades, Stranglethorn Vale, and a 6th point inside the Maelstrom, then you go and add a point in Pandaria to the south and it creates a hexagram. This whole time we placed emphasis on the Maelstrom because it was at the center, but if Y'shaarj is the father of all Elder Gods then it could be that the Maelstrom and the original point of the Sundering was simply where one of his six spawn landed. Two went north, two went east, two went west; they essentially spread out, with them settling about equally apart from each other. Remember that there is a good chance that they are deep underground, but their presence is felt in these locations, as they appear to be able to affect those who dwell above them in these areas.

For some background on how I came to these conclusions, pour over these:
http://www.wowpedia.org/Old_Gods
http://www.wowhead.com/guide=1500
http://www.wowpedia.org/Old_Gods_speculation
http://www.wowpedia.org/File:OldGodMap.png?c=1


As for Wrathion, he is an extremely duplicitous liar, and he is very obviously playing Horde and Alliance against one another. The Burning Legion may just be another ruse that he is using to help trick ourselves into helping him...if in fact he is eluding to them. He's definitely trying to gain access to something, possibly more power from deeper knowledge.

[Cyberowl]

Ok, old God, Horde and Alliance leaders getting balls, exciting siege and the next xpac seems to deal with the Burning Legion or at least points towards it...damn, shit is getting serious and MoP is awesome so far <3

[Immitis]

I have nothing really concrete to add here but I want to explain a hypothesis I formed after having experienced Exalted Klaxxi and first learned of Y'shaarj.

First though, regarding, "why is there no Northrend or Silithus sha or whatever," I think is because powerful sorcery was not used on them the way it was for Y'shaarj. Or at least no creation of the physical manifestations of sha-like beings anyway...as someone mentioned, the sha were manifested into corporeality. Perhaps they exist more ephemerally in other places.

So anyway, I was seriously getting chills when I went into the underground chapel dedicated to Y'shaarj. We found out that all this time, the Mantid we were working for are essentially in alignment with the Twilight Hammer. Also this explained their relation as cousins to Nerubians as well as Qiraji (and you'll remember that the Mantid were eluded to much earlier when we first learned that Nerub and Qiraj were infact related; as they were cousin races to eachother they also had a third that was further east and south). The Mantid's huge hulking Kunchong beasts resemble the Qiraji's behemoths like Buru the Gorger don't they? And in Azjol'Nerub, huge scarab behemoths run all over the place and they have a very similar look to the Kunchongs and Gorgers.

Made me think that there is more evidence to support that all the Old Gods were actually split from Y'shaarj in the first place; as well as that the various insectoid races could potentially all be offshoots of one original insect race. Could be that as seven sha were split from Y'shaarj's breath, 6 Old Gods were created like cutting the heads off of hydras (and hydras are a favored pet of the Old Gods).

Therefore when people show the 5-pointed map creating a star with points in Silithus, Hyjal, Northrend, Tirisfal Glades, Stranglethorn Vale, and a 6th point inside the Maelstrom, then you go and add a point in Pandaria to the south and it creates a hexagram. This whole time we placed emphasis on the Maelstrom because it was at the center, but if Y'shaarj is the father of all Elder Gods then it could be that the Maelstrom and the original point of the Sundering was simply where one of his six spawn landed. Two went north, two went east, two went west; they essentially spread out, with them settling about equally apart from each other. Remember that there is a good chance that they are deep underground, but their presence is felt in these locations, as they appear to be able to affect those who dwell above them in these areas.

For some background on how I came to these conclusions, pour over these:
http://www.wowpedia.org/Old_Gods
http://www.wowhead.com/guide=1500
http://www.wowpedia.org/Old_Gods_speculation
http://www.wowpedia.org/File:OldGodMap.png?c=1


As for Wrathion, he is an extremely duplicitous liar, and he is very obviously playing Horde and Alliance against one another. The Burning Legion may just be another ruse that he is using to help trick ourselves into helping him...if in fact he is eluding to them. He's definitely trying to gain access to something, possibly more power from deeper knowledge.

its been confirmed that whatevers under tirisfal it isnt related to the old gods, also i didnt get the feeling that the mantid liked the old gods specifically their sentence "your gods are not your gods" i got the feeling that the mantid side with the old gods because they believe that A: we couldnt beat them or the titans and B: whatever the titans do is worse than living under an old god.

as for all the old gods being a part of one big old god, its possible, one of the popular theories is that azeroth is one big old god, but there is also old gods in space so who knows.


i dont think wrathion is a villain hes very clearly an anti hero, and yes hes playing the alliance and horde against eachother he wants to figure out which side is stronger and then help that side win ASAP so that he can end the war and make us stronger because the legion is coming soon, dave kosak has flatout said that wrathion believes the legion is coming soon and he will do anything in his power to stop it even if it means doing things the alliance and horde dont like.