Is ToT too challenging causing the guild break ups?

[Lethey Alexandros]

How many more modes do we need? Should Throne of Thunder just be a quest zone?

People shouldn't play an MMO if they want to log in for 30 minutes, and kill all the internet dragons in a day.

I didnt say people only wanted to raid for 30 minutes. I said not everyone wants to put in the same effort. But natrually people have varying times they can put towards raid progression so why not have a couple more levels of difficulty so others can play as well?

Or are you worried this might rob you of something?

[Osmeric]

Maybe if people actually became better players then they wouldnt have to nerf content so much.

Maybe if my uncle had breasts he'd be my aunt.

What you are saying is true, but completely useless.

[Dazs]

I mean heroic rag (aka from friends known as the guild killer) was extremely daunting in its skill cap. I mean correct me if I am wrong but that was a hard boss.

Lei Shen delivered on how great the final boss of a tier should be and is comparable to Heroic Ragnaros in terms of difficulty and structure.

have to say its been a few tiers but having a boss come back as hard as lei shen heroic means this tier is pretty tough. I find heroic Dark animus a brick wall personaly. it definitely causes frustration.

[Deleted]

Cant believe this is still going with those 4 persons still arguing determined that ToT normals is too hard 0_o

[melodramocracy]

They do not have to nerf content but what they should do is make several levels of difficulty so everyone can see it. You can have your hardcore korean mode, ill take my hard mode, and people can have their friend/family guild difficulty.

Demanding players be on the same teir as you though is a little much. Some people just do not see the appeal in putting in the same effort you and I do but still want to enjoy the game they pay for.

The never-ending point of this, and other threads like it, is that there are already several levels of difficulty. You don't see folks asking for normal mode to be harder, as there's already a mode for that. You do see pages of a few folks wanting normal mode to be easier, despite there already being an easy mode.

And if, or better yet when, normal mode is nerfed, you can be certain that you'll see the same people asking that heroics be nerfed. Citing the same reasons. There is no placating this sort of mindset.... 'what I can already do is pointless, and what I can't is grievously unfair'.

[cabyio]

Cant believe this is still going with those 4 persons still arguing determined that ToT normals is too hard 0_o

If you look around the forums the same 3-5 people always bitch and moan about it and T14 being too hard.

[raps]

I don't think the difficulty ToT is what makes people quit, its the time investment. It's everything that feels mandatory to raid now. Valor gear and extra roll coins are there to be had, but take significant time to get for people (the reduction in silver coins has helped). Then you have a 12 boss raid. If you dont raid for ~10+ hours per week that boss thats a wall for you probably seems out of reach. By the time you get to it, you can't get enough tries in before its quitting time. You're looking at 3 nights a week of raiding, along with another couple of nights doing dailies for silver coins and dungeons/lfr/whatever for valor. Thats a time investment a lot of people can't make.

Its my opinion that blizzard thinks "casual" players are people who just dont want to do organized raids, but still play a lot. Everything they do are geared to people who log in 7 days a week. Not many people in my guild do that. Most log in 3-5 days as their lives allow. Many of the raiders get to the valor cap, while others who don't miss out on the extra gear. Now after a few weeks of this, the seperation of gear between the people who play a lot between raids, and the people who don't gets greater. Now you're hitting a wall, and the people in valor 522's are looking at the few that don't have them as what is holding them back. Realistically skill is what is holding the raid back, and the valor 522 stuff just allows you to outgear your mistakes. On the other hand thats kinda the point of valor gear and loot coins; to help smooth progression. Now you get to pick the gear and everyone gets something if they put the work in instead of rng loot. If you don't have time/want to do what it takes to raid, maybe this game isnt for you.

[Osmeric]

The never-ending point of this, and other threads like it, is that there are already several levels of difficulty. You don't see folks asking for normal mode to be harder, as there's already a mode for that. You do see pages of a few folks wanting normal mode to be easier, despite there already being an easy mode.

And if, or better yet when, normal mode is nerfed, you can be certain that you'll see the same people asking that heroics be nerfed. Citing the same reasons. There is no placating this sort of mindset.... 'what I can already do is pointless, and what I can't is grievously unfair'.

Of course this mindset can be placated -- when the difficulties are appropriate for their purpose, which is to optimize the total delivered customer experience, considered over the player population as a whole.

The current arrangement of raid difficulties is suboptimal in that respect.

Your problem may be that the optimal arrangement may not be one that you would personally prefer. Too bad?

---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 09:00 PM ----------

If you look around the forums the same 3-5 people always bitch and moan about it and T14 being too hard.

And isn't it a stinker when the devs end up agreeing with us on what the problem is? That's got to stick in your throat.

[cabyio]

And isn't it a stinker when the devs end up agreeing with us on what the problem is? That's got to stick in your throat.

Did you not see the interview with the Lead Encounter Designer on the frontpage?

He said that:

1. They are happy overall with the ToT raid.
2. They thought that the difficulty curve of ToT was a little off. Mind you, not that the ToT was too hard, but that the difficulty curve was a little off (which I can agree with)
3. That they would like to do non-linear ones in the future, which I think is cool, I'm not attached to linear stuff.


So how are they agreeing with you?

[Glorious Leader]

Of course this mindset can be placated -- when the difficulties are appropriate for their purpose, which is to optimize the total delivered customer experience, considered over the player population as a whole.

The current arrangement of raid difficulties is suboptimal in that respect.

Your problem may be that the optimal arrangement may not be one that you would personally prefer. Too bad?

---------- Post added 2013-05-16 at 09:00 PM ----------



And isn't it a stinker when the devs end up agreeing with us on what the problem is? That's got to stick in your throat.

I mean the develers agreed a month or so ago when he posted about not offering enough difficulties. The problem is that it's to difficult currently and it excludes a ton of players who would otherwise be doing it. People here are just in denial.

If were gonna get right about arranging things in warcraft you wouldn't have any god damn raids at all. Raids take up far more time to produce relative to the amount of people that actually use them, they prevent the developers from making content with a much broader appeal (i.e DUNGEONS) and they fracture the player base into cliques and gangs while insulting the majority of players who aren't apparently good enough to do Blizzards idea of Normal dungeons. Every hardcore raider should be the sucking the balls of every casual who subsidizes their content and calling for Blizzard to make normal raids as piss easy as possible. Hardcore raiders have such entitlement mentalities though they end up thinking that everything should belong to them and nothing for other people.

[Osmeric]

So how are they agreeing with you?

He said there was a difficulty hole between LFR and Normal. In other words, he agreed that normal was tuned too high for a significant chunk of its audience. He lamented that this audience was denied organized raiding and forced into LFR.

[Glorious Leader]

Did you not see the interview with the Lead Encounter Designer on the frontpage?

He said that:

1. They are happy overall with the ToT raid.
2. They thought that the difficulty curve of ToT was a little off. Mind you, not that the ToT was too hard, but that the difficulty curve was a little off (which I can agree with)
3. That they would like to do non-linear ones in the future, which I think is cool, I'm not attached to linear stuff.


So how are they agreeing with you?

They also said theirs a large segment of raiding base where the difficulty of tot isn't appropriate. In other words.. it's to difficult. You glosed over that, likely so you could remain in denial about it but life is tough and they just shattered your world view about the game. You lose.

[Gegan]

I wish my server was able to have full clear ToT PUGs. Must be nice to be on one of these successful, probably populated servers.

[Glorious Leader]

He said there was a difficulty hole between LFR and Normal. In other words, he agreed that normal was tuned too high for a significant chunk of its audience. He lamented that this audience was denied organized raiding and forced into LFR.

It's all about spin dude. They basically said it's to difficult but they have to couch that and hide it in such a way that the vocal minority doesn't have a fucking riot.

[darklogrus]

I wish my server was able to have full clear ToT PUGs. Must be nice to be on one of these successful, probably populated servers.

Tell me about it, I rarely see a shout for a pug last teir, and when I did they wanted someone who was already out gearing the content. This teir has been exaclty the same.

[Odina]

And isn't it a stinker when the devs end up agreeing with us on what the problem is? That's got to stick in your throat.

"•Now that both 10 and 25 player difficulty offer the same loot and have a shared lockout, there is a need to ensure the difficulty is similar for both raid sizes. This eliminated the lower difficulty 10 player raids, which left some players with no content to raid in a more casual organized group."

That =/= normal modes are too hard. The thing they are saying is there is a group that is currently not able to participate in organised raiding but they never said that they believe they need to tone down normal modes. All that is needed is an easy mode for those players and this has been agreed from just about all sides of the argument!

The main problem is if you tone down normal now then you create the same problem as before + one more issue.

-Tone it down there will still be players that can't finishi it / do it and complain and want it even more nerfed this group will always exist !

-New problem- Normal raiders that are not hard mode raiders will clear normal fast and then be stuck at exactly the same point in hard modes that those that wanted normals to be easyer are thus you are just shifting where the problem is rather than solving it.

[cabyio]

He said there was a difficulty hole between LFR and Normal. In other words, he agreed that normal was tuned too high for a significant chunk of its audience. He lamented that this audience was denied organized raiding and forced into LFR.

All he said was that he wants more people to experience the close knit pre-made raiding. That the casual (friends and family) guilds were underserved by the current content and that he would like to offer them something in the future.

That combined with the fact that they were very happy with ToT does not make me think they will really mess with normal, that sounds alot more like another difficulty of raiding.

Not once has a developer said that ToT normal was just way too hard, besides the messed up curve. (Please show me if they have)

[Glorious Leader]

There is a group of players that wants to do group raiding, but they aren't well served by the current difficulty choices.

In other words. NORMAL IS TO HARD LFR IS TO EASY. YOU LOSE.

[Odina]

In other words. NORMAL IS TO HARD LFR IS TO EASY. YOU LOSE.

Because one is too easy does not make the other too hard...

and looks like your cruise controll button to cool is stuck again!

[cabyio]

In other words. NORMAL IS TO HARD LFR IS TO EASY. YOU LOSE.

OR they are going to add another level of difficulty between them....