How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Deleted]

I believe you're looking at it all wrong. A Friends and family guild wants to do things together, they want to hang out with Bob because despite being terrible Bob is good people and everyone loves hanging out with Bob. Bob can run LFR with 24 strangers, but he's not paying to play with 24 strangers. Bob and friends can go into LFR and be grouped with 15 strangers, but there goes the whole playing with friends, which Blizzard has stated many times they believe is vital to the game.

So what you want to give is 2 options "Get better or quit" By the numbers we're seeing, people are taking the quit option. And you are in the group that believe this is a good thing. Blizzard and the other group doesn't agree.

I still haven't seen any real reason why a 10man LFR+ option is bad. All I see is "Normal is easy enough, if they can't do normal, they should quit" That's just a terrible mindset. The best way to ensure that Heroics stay heroic, is to ensure that the baddies and normal have something to do. You should be begging Blizzard for a 10man LFR plus option. Else you're really advocating that Blizzard go back to nerfing normal and heroics for all so that everyone has something to do with their friends and family.

Some of us like Bob and want to be able to carry him again, just like it used to be. Or just be able to play with half of us shitfaced and talking utter rubbish on mumble on a wintery friday night. Some of us just want to be able to set up an alt run on the spur of the moment and have a chance to get past the first boss again. Yes indeedy. We'd like those things very much.

You can keep your endgame racing, min maxing, have-I-checked-icy-veins cobblers well away from our social gaming.

The harder stuff has it's place and I love doing it, I also like to have FUN arsing around. With hardstyle min/maxing "do your homework and eat your veg like a good boy" raiding the only option for the semi organised on the table, it's making a complete fecking wreck out of a lot of the social experiences the game can and used to provide.

[Deleted]

I already explained earlier in the thread why normal modes are harder now than ever before. Compare the Stone Guard to Patchwerk, Anub'rekhan or Sartharion and tell me there's no difference with a straight face.

Geez. Think it is quite widely agreed that Naxx was the easiest raid tier ever. Doesnt feel like a fair comparison.

Checking entry bosses in T9, we see about 86k kills in ToC.
T10 84k
T11 71k
T12 64k
T13 62k
T14 46k

The real plummet did not happen until MoP. Between T9 and T13 the "drop" seem to go well together with the drop in subscribers, aswell as WoL double recording guilds, i.e. I clear t10, in t11 I make a new guild and we clear t10 again, now I have cleared t10 in two guilds.

However lets get back to what you said. You can't really compare naxx, since naxx was a joke.

Compare stone guards to iron council in ulduar, suddenly stone guards is a joke. You cant just cherry pick the bosses. What about malygos, xt-002, mimiron, thorim, freya, vezax, yogg, beasts, jaraxxus, anub'arak, putricide, blood princes, valithria, sindragosa that is just to mention a few would easily have classes as hard if not harder than several of the T15 normal modes. Heck the trash infront of mimiron was harder than durumu.

That is not mentioning cata since most cata bosses was very much on par with T15.
The reason why pugs was harder to find in Cata was because 10 and 25 shared lockouts, making pugs less common aswell, had nothing to do with difficulty. Basically you would see less mains pugging the difficulty they are not running. I had no problem at all finding pugs with my alts though as I said, so I do not share your views. There were less pugs, yes, but they were not impossible to find. Easily pugged 11/12 the first week dinging 85 on alts. Nefarian was a bit hard in pugs.

[RickJamesLich]

I believe you're looking at it all wrong. A Friends and family guild wants to do things together, they want to hang out with Bob because despite being terrible Bob is good people and everyone loves hanging out with Bob. Bob can run LFR with 24 strangers, but he's not paying to play with 24 strangers. Bob and friends can go into LFR and be grouped with 15 strangers, but there goes the whole playing with friends, which Blizzard has stated many times they believe is vital to the game.

So what you want to give is 2 options "Get better or quit" By the numbers we're seeing, people are taking the quit option. And you are in the group that believe this is a good thing. Blizzard and the other group doesn't agree.

I still haven't seen any real reason why a 10man LFR+ option is bad. All I see is "Normal is easy enough, if they can't do normal, they should quit" That's just a terrible mindset. The best way to ensure that Heroics stay heroic, is to ensure that the baddies and normal have something to do. You should be begging Blizzard for a 10man LFR plus option. Else you're really advocating that Blizzard go back to nerfing normal and heroics for all so that everyone has something to do with their friends and family.

At some points in the game you do have to deal with strangers, whether it's people that sell you stuff in trade chat, the AH, or people just flying around the city - if you never want to deal with stranger in this game, WoW is likely not for you in the first place. There's nothing wrong with getting some friends and doing a LFR if you want to raid, or trying normal - and Bob would be living up to the vitality of the game.

There's a third option, don't get better and just keep playing, which is what Bob appears to be doing, as well as doing scenarios and challenge modes. If Bob is having fun and their friends are having fun, who cares if they are getting BiS loot? I don't think we should keep changing the game to appease to every possible person, and I think most of the people on this board agree - and to an extent blizzard does themselves.

Nobody is saying they should quit, people are saying they shouldn't expect blizz to hold their hands at every step. If Bob wants to afk during boss fights or gem for stam for a dps, unfortunately he may not go very far lol.... that's just how this game works. And I don't see how blizz is going back to nerfing normal and heroics when patch 5.3 gives casuals plenty of ways to gear up - there's no actual need for an easier 10 man mode then normal. The game is meant to be a challenge, even if only a small one, but when people are looking at it as a weird boost for self esteem by allowing you to kill bosses on an easier mode, I don't think WoW is the right game to play at that point.

[Deleted]

Some of us like Bob and want to be able to carry him again, just like it used to be. Or just be able to play with half of us shitfaced and talking utter rubbish on mumble on a wintery friday night. Some of us just want to be able to set up an alt run on the spur of the moment and have a chance to get past the first boss again. Yes indeedy. We'd like those things very much.

You can keep your endgame racing, min maxing, have-I-checked-icy-veins cobblers well away from our social gaming.

The harder stuff has it's place and I love doing it, I also like to have FUN arsing around. With hardstyle min/maxing "do your homework and eat your veg like a good boy" raiding the only option for the semi organised on the table, it's making a complete fecking wreck out of a lot of the social experiences the game can and used to provide.

I follow you. Though I do not believe LFR is the answer.

1. Removing LFR, Making a slight tuning down normal modes.

2. Removing LFR, Going back to the old raid model 10 being the easier friends and family raid model, 25 being the hardcore raid model, split lockouts.

3. Removing LFR, Making a slight tuning down normal modes. Splitting up normal and heroic lockouts. I.e. you can run 10N/25HC or 25N/10HC or 10N/10H or 25N/25H but not 10H/25H and 10N/25N. This would encourage more pugs.

These are 3 options I think would improve the current raiding model. Maybe not the ultimate answer but a step in the right direction.

[Pitkanen]

Make the previous tier drop 2/2 upgraded items. Then casuals/pugs would have meaningful (but nerfed) content to do which would reward them with better-than-lfr loot.

Fixed.

(This would also server as a nice catch up mechanic, as players who have cleared full heroic tend to go into the next tier with fully upgraded heroic while everyone else has normal, and can't really get upgraded normal/heroic from the prior tier because they have to spend valor on new things.)

[Ryme]

Why is there no "It's fine the way it is" option.

Sums up my thoughts as well, pugged normal more than once, it's a L2P issue.

[Deleted]

Geez. Think it is quite widely agreed that Naxx was the easiest raid tier ever. Doesnt feel like a fair comparison.

Checking entry bosses in T9, we see about 86k kills in ToC.
T10 84k
T11 71k
T12 64k
T13 62k
T14 46k

The real plummet did not happen until MoP. Between T9 and T13 the "drop" seem to go well together with the drop in subscribers, aswell as WoL double recording guilds, i.e. I clear t10, in t11 I make a new guild and we clear t10 again, now I have cleared t10 in two guilds.

However lets get back to what you said. You can't really compare naxx, since naxx was a joke.

Compare stone guards to iron council in ulduar, suddenly stone guards is a joke. You cant just cherry pick the bosses. What about malygos, xt-002, mimiron, thorim, freya, vezax, yogg, beasts, jaraxxus, anub'arak, putricide, blood princes, valithria, sindragosa that is just to mention a few would easily have classes as hard if not harder than several of the T15 normal modes. Heck the trash infront of mimiron was harder than durumu.

That is not mentioning cata since most cata bosses was very much on par with T15.
The reason why pugs was harder to find in Cata was because 10 and 25 shared lockouts, making pugs less common aswell, had nothing to do with difficulty. Basically you would see less mains pugging the difficulty they are not running. I had no problem at all finding pugs with my alts though as I said, so I do not share your views. There were less pugs, yes, but they were not impossible to find. Easily pugged 11/12 the first week dinging 85 on alts. Nefarian was a bit hard in pugs.

No, really. T11 and T12 were insanely difficult.

Things only improved slightly when they made it so FL was doable by mere mortals and didn't really turn around until DS came out*, but then blizz made the same stupid mistake they did in Cata by making T14 hard as iron balls again. Stone guards are a ludicrous intro boss, end of story. There are too many mechanics and too much going on for most players in modern wow.

Your experience of pugging anything in T11 pre FL nerf patch is irrelevent because it doesn't translate to everyone elses experience of the game.

Blizzard have gotten into this bizarre arms race with the top end of their playerbase and it's hurting everyone else. That which used to be doable with a few lines of text in chat now recquire add ons, voip, mucho wiping, 90% of theoretical maximum DPS and HPS from everyone, perfect execution from everyone or all die, the use of half a dozen 3rd party websites to get your stats spot on before you even set foot in the place and so on and so forth.

I wish they'd knock it off, and looking at the sub figures, so do their investors.

Wow is at it's best when the stronger players can rub along just fine with the weaker ones and community spirit can carry everything along for mutual benefit. This sociopathic pyramid scheme where you can only possibly succeed in normal modes by excluding almost everyone but the best players you can associate with they have running lately is bobbins.


*Tied with ICC as the best raiding tier for most players ever in game.

[Nobleshield]

He's comparing Stone Guard to Naxx bosses because both were meant to be entry level raids, except Naxx was while MSV was not.

Maybe compare them to Halfus instead?

[Pua]

Geez. Think it is quite widely agreed that Naxx was the easiest raid tier ever. Doesnt feel like a fair comparison.

Unfortunately, Naxxramas was the entry raid tier; just as the Mogu'shan Vaults were for MoP. You may not like it, but it's the only relevant comparison.

The real plummet did not happen until MoP. Between T9 and T13 the "drop" seem to go well together with the drop in subscribers, aswell as WoL double recording guilds, i.e. I clear t10, in t11 I make a new guild and we clear t10 again, now I have cleared t10 in two guilds.

It doesn't go well together with the drop in subscribers; going into T11, there was a net gain in subscribers from late WotLK. In other words, more players were trying raids and yet the number still fell dramatically. We then fall further for Firelands, a seven-boss tier don't forget (that also saw a flat 30% ish nerf applied), and finally get a slight stemming of the tide into T13 thanks to LFR.

Of course we then land at Mists of Pandaria, and we're approaching half the number of guilds raiding than were in WotLK.

Compare stone guards to iron council in ulduar, suddenly stone guards is a joke. You cant just cherry pick the bosses. What about malygos, xt-002, mimiron, thorim, freya, vezax, yogg, beasts, jaraxxus, anub'arak, putricide, blood princes, valithria, sindragosa that is just to mention a few would easily have classes as hard if not harder than several of the T15 normal modes. Heck the trash infront of mimiron was harder than durumu.

You're missing the point.

Naxxramas was an entry level raid.

Therefore, to keep it relevant, you can only compare Stone Guards to Patchwerk, Anub'rekhan, Noth the Plaguebringer, Instructor Razuvious or Sartharion. That's it. Any other comparison is not relevant. I'm not sure what's confusing you about this, there's no 'cherry picking' going on. If you want to start listing things like Malygos, the Keepers of Ulduar or Sindragosa, then you're looking at mid-tier bosses such as Elegon, Amber Shaper Un'sok or Tortos.

The reason why pugs was harder to find in Cata was because 10 and 25 shared lockouts, making pugs less common aswell, had nothing to do with difficulty. Basically you would see less mains pugging the difficulty they are not running. I had no problem at all finding pugs with my alts though as I said, so I do not share your views. There were less pugs, yes, but they were not impossible to find. Easily pugged 11/12 the first week dinging 85 on alts. Nefarian was a bit hard in pugs.

Now you're running off at tangents rather than just accepting that I have a point. I never said PuG raids were "impossible" to find (yet now you're assuring me of this happenstance), and your choice to say difficulty had nothing to do with this drop in the raiding population strikes me as straight out denial, when even the developers are now forced to comment on it.

I think it's fairly clear that you believe the only problem is that everyone has suddenly become extraordinarily self-entitled, likely brought on by the advent of LFR, and you're not willing to accept any reasoning to the contrary, regardless of how heavily the evidence leans.

[skrump]

Re-Balance 10m for the drooling retards, just like the good old days.

Sure it kind of shits on smaller guilds but hey managing a full sized roster of raiders is part of the challenge so in a way 10m is already sort of a lazy carebear mode and I wouldn't mind shitting on it further by turning it into a mere stepping stone on the path to the big boy raids.

Infracted; Don't insult people. (Sonnillon)

[HeedmySpeed]

No, really. T11 and T12 were insanely difficult.

Things only improved slightly when they made it so FL was doable by mere mortals and didn't really turn around until DS came out*, but then blizz made the same stupid mistake they did in Cata by making T14 hard as iron balls again. Stone guards are a ludicrous intro boss, end of story. There are too many mechanics and too much going on for most players in modern wow.

Blizzard have gotten into this bizarre arms race with the top end of their playerbase and it's hurting everyone else. That which used to be doable with a few lines of text in chat now recquire add ons, voip, mucho wiping, 90% of theoretical maximum DPS and HPS from everyone, perfect execution from everyone or all die, the use of half a dozen 3rd party websites to get your stats spot on before you even set foot in the place and so on and so forth.

I wish they'd knock it off, and looking at the sub figures, so do their investors.

Wow is at it's best when the stronger players can rub along just fine with the weaker ones and community spirit can carry everything along for mutual benefit. This sociopathic pyramid scheme where you can only possibly succeed in normal modes by excluding almost everyone but the best players you can associate with they have running lately is bobbins.

*Tied with ICC as the best raiding tier for most players ever in game.

See, you can play this two ways. You say normal mode guilds "exclude" players but you can also say those "excluded" players are doing it to themselves. Obviously, you chose the former which makes those guilds sound like the bad guy.

No one is stopping those players from meeting ilvl requirements from guilds.
No one is stopping those players from meeting DPS requirements from guilds.
No one is stopping those players from moving out of fire when it's under their feet.

Exclusion has a bad connotation and that's all you're using it for. To make those guilds seem like the villain. If you want to skip all the learning process (which is part of the game, or at least.. was) and go straight to epics then that's on you, not the guild.

***also, stop speaking for the majority, you don't have a direct line to them, you haven't met all of them. I've heard people speak of Ulduar more than ICC, does that mean the "majority" loved Ulduar more? No. Stop using it as leverage.

[Pua]

...bobbins.

I love you.

[Deleted]

Yes for Cata. Pugged T11 in T11, T12 in T12 pre nerf, T13 in T13 without issues. I cant speak for other realms but that was how it worked on my realm.
T11 was a step up from T10 30% damage buff, yes, though T11 was about on par with T11 0% buff. T11 normals was not really that hard.

I wouldnt call a boss that can be killed by 3 people "a ludicrous intro boss". Rather sure you could 5 man heroic.
With good RNG 1 healer + 1 tank could 2 man that boss in 463 gear.

We actually 5 manned the entire MSV first T15 week, 4 manned a few MSV bosses aswell. That is not hard, that is standard normal.

Normal do not require addons voip, 90% of people theoretical DPS. We used pugs without VOIP to kill 5/6 HC in MSV early on in T14 (was a realm 4 kill on one of the high population realms with a pug). 2 of the pugs were completely carried. T14 normals did not even require 75% of a players theoretical max.

Geez, do you see how much you exaggerate? You do not need addons, we have several players playing without even bossmods. You do not need 3rd party websites, I do all my stats myself, all my tactics, talents, glyphs etc, I do myself, because I know my class. You do not nearly need perfect execution. This week we blew up 4 adds on durumu because of a bug, still easy kill. We had people blow balls on Jin'Rokh, doesnt matter, People eating swipes on Horridon etc etc I could go on and on and on. I do not understand how you can even remotely claim normals requiring perfect execution, people can fail on almost every mechanic without causing a wipe.

I really do not see how an entry boss like stone guards is harder than say Northrend Beasts or Omnotron Defense System. Especially if you compare 25 man.
I stress again, normals has not become harder, the players have gotten worse. To much holding hands from blizzard.

Starting up a new raid team of people that have not played since WotLK, we had no issue clearing T15 normals with 2-3 pugs with an average item level of about 485-495 (from start to finnish people got gear). As said, that is not even with a team full of competent players, some really horrible pugs, basically 8-9 manning with far lower item level than "required". That is not to hard tuned, that is correctly tuned. It is very easy to carry players in ToT normals. You do not need full gear, you do not need to play 90% of your class ability. That is just pure lies.

Normals are tuned just fine, maybe should be 5% nerf or something. Easy enough to carry 20% of your raid without overgearing the content. I do not see why it should be easier than that.

---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 03:46 PM ----------

Unfortunately, Naxxramas was the entry raid tier; just as the Mogu'shan Vaults were for MoP. You may not like it, but it's the only relevant comparison.

Blizzard said themselves that Naxx was a failure in easiness. So sorry, naxx was a mistake. I think comparing it with MSV is just stupid. Maybe we should compare Naxx with Sha of Fear since Sha of Fear is theoretically the entry boss in MoP?

Or by going with your flawed logic, should be compare T15 with Ulduar? Ulduar was 10x harder than T15.

Sorry, but comparing Naxx with MSV is just a bad way of skewering the data.

[Osmeric]

Blizzard said themselves that Naxx was a failure in easiness. So sorry, naxx was a mistake.

Blizzard said that, and then their Calvilcade of Fail began in Cataclysm. The easiest explanation is that their position on Naxx was in error, and that this error led them to disaster as they made raids harder.

[Deleted]

I think it's fairly clear that you believe the only problem is that everyone has suddenly become extraordinarily self-entitled, likely brought on by the advent of LFR, and you're not willing to accept any reasoning to the contrary, regardless of how heavily the evidence leans.

I must completely fail to see your 'evidence'. I see logical explanation for everything.

The drop between T11 and T12 for example was much higher than the drop between previous tiers, not counting drops between expansion.
Though that is logical for me since a lot of new guilds formed in T11 and disbanded in T12 due to the 10/25 man splitting causing a lot of new guilds to fall apart, a lot of people stopped raiding in T12 and a lot of people stopped raiding in T11 after killing the first boss, so seeing a decline is kinda logical due to having an inflated number of people quitting / new guilds being formed in the aftermath of lockout sharing.

T10 was current content for over a year so kinda logical for that to have a lot of kills compared to T11, T13 had 35% nerf, it was so easy that everyone and their cat could go in and kill it. The only real "unexplained" drop is going into MoP.

---------- Post added 2013-05-23 at 03:53 PM ----------

Blizzard said that, and then their Calvilcade of Fail began in Cataclysm. The easiest explanation is that their position on Naxx was in error, and that this error led them to disaster as they made raids harder.

The problem going into cataclysm was the ICC had been current content for 12 months. People were used to the 30% nerf. So when people got into actual raiding without being overgeared and a 30% nerf, they were suprised. Add to that on top with 10 man normal being tuned up to 25 man normal difficulty, it kinda makes sense. Cata normals was not harder than WotLK 25 normals.

[Deleted]

See, you can play this two ways. You say normal mode guilds "exclude" players but you can also say those "excluded" players are doing it to themselves. Obviously, you chose the former which makes those guilds sound like the bad guy.

I run a guild.

I have to sit people out. I have to exclude people, some of whom I used to take. it isn't my decision,i'd take them if I could, but it simply isn't feasible. I (and people like me) can only do what is in front of me.

No one is stopping those players from meeting ilvl requirements from guilds.
No one is stopping those players from meeting DPS requirements from guilds.
No one is stopping those players from moving out of fire when it's under their feet.

Completely ignores the environment, therefore bobbins. If I wanted to start a track and field team and set the entry time where I knew at least 75% of all comers would never reach, did they fail or am I excluding them by design? There is nothing stopping them from running faster, after all.....

By saying it's all on the players, you are removing the most important element which decides if something is wow is possible for people or not - the dev team.

Exclusion has a bad connotation and that's all you're using it for. To make those guilds seem like the villain. If you want to skip all the learning process (which is part of the game, or at least.. was) and go straight to epics then that's on you, not the guild.

***also, stop speaking for the majority, you don't have a direct line to them, you haven't met all of them. I've heard people speak of Ulduar more than ICC, does that mean the "majority" loved Ulduar more? No. Stop using it as leverage.

I say majority cos of participation rates.

Feel free to go off anecdote though, crack on.

[Pua]

See, you can play this two ways. You say normal mode guilds "exclude" players but you can also say those "excluded" players are doing it to themselves. Obviously, you chose the former which makes those guilds sound like the bad guy.

No one is stopping those players from meeting ilvl requirements from guilds.
No one is stopping those players from meeting DPS requirements from guilds.
No one is stopping those players from moving out of fire when it's under their feet.

Exclusion has a bad connotation and that's all you're using it for. To make those guilds seem like the villain. If you want to skip all the learning process (which is part of the game, or at least.. was) and go straight to epics then that's on you, not the guild.

***also, stop speaking for the majority, you don't have a direct line to them, you haven't met all of them. I've heard people speak of Ulduar more than ICC, does that mean the "majority" loved Ulduar more? No. Stop using it as leverage.

I think this is a fair post. It's disingenuous to demonise guilds for setting a standard that they expect their members to adhere to; it's up to the guild to set it, and up to its players to meet it.

Anything else goes entirely against the very foundation of what a raid guild is designed to be.

Blizzard said themselves that Naxx was a failure in easiness. So sorry, naxx was a mistake.

Where did they call it a failure?

I recall them saying that it was tuned too forgivingly, but not that it was a failure. In any event, at the risk of sounding repetitive, I'M TALKING ABOUT ENTRY LEVEL RAIDS.

Do you have any idea how comments like the following make you look?

I think comparing it with MSV is just stupid. Maybe we should compare Naxx with Sha of Fear since Sha of Fear is theoretically the entry boss in MoP?

That just doesn't make even the slightest iota of sense. It's a desperate attempt to misdirect rubes from noting that your entire premise has completely unravelled.

Or by going with your flawed logic, should be compare T15 with Ulduar? Ulduar was 10x harder than T15.

An accusation of flawed logic by someone who wanted to compare the last boss of a tier with the entry level bosses. Priceless.

But if you want to compare T15 with Ulduar, that'd be logical. Let's do that.

Nip back over to WoW Progress (because you won't believe me) and compare how many guilds killed each boss in Ulduar against how many killed each one in the Throne of Thunder.

Have fun.

[Deleted]

I am comparing the start of a raid tier with start of another raid tier instead of comparing one raid tier with a far undertune raid tier that has again and again been agreed upon to. You are comparing a bike with a bike with no wheels and saying "The bike with wheels went faster". Yeah, that was kinda expected.

You cant really complain ulduar with T15 in the current state as first off, T15 is current tier, After ulduar there were 1.5 more years of Wrath so plenty of time for people to finnish it. I remember a point in time were more guilds had cleared T9 than T8. Though just to humor you.

The Siege of Ulduar (H): 31993 (59.29%)
Jin'rokh the Breaker 25956 (99.89%) Jin'rokh the Breaker Normal videos

The Descent into Madness (H): 10721 (19.87%)
Lei Shen 7330 (28.21%)

Now consider that T15 is not even over yet.
I still believe that comparing numbers between MoP and WotLK is comparing apples and pears. I use first hand boss experience to compare them.


Though lets humor your logic even more.
We are now 1.5 months into T15. Lets check 1.5 months into T8.

1.5 months of T15 7330 Lei-Shen kills
1.5 months of T8 2360 Yogg-Saron kills.

Have fun with those numbers and explain how much harder T15 is.

[Deleted]

I am comparing the start of a raid tier with start of another raid tier instead of comparing one raid tier with a far undertune raid tier that has again and again been agreed upon to. You are comparing a bike with a bike with no wheels and saying "The bike with wheels went faster". Yeah, that was kinda expected.

You cant really complain ulduar with T15 in the current state as first off, T15 is current tier, After ulduar there were 1.5 more years of Wrath so plenty of time for people to finnish it. I remember a point in time were more guilds had cleared T9 than T8. Though just to humor you.

The Siege of Ulduar (H): 31993 (59.29%)
Jin'rokh the Breaker 25956 (99.89%) Jin'rokh the Breaker Normal videos

The Descent into Madness (H): 10721 (19.87%)
Lei Shen 7330 (28.21%)

Now consider that T15 is not even over yet.

I still believe that comparing numbers between MoP and WotLK is comparing apples and pears. I use first hand boss experience to compare them.

Heroics to normals, not known if ten to twenty five and your original premise has been blown already.

Looks to me like you are back peddling and just making stuff up now, tbh. Shame.

[HeedmySpeed]

I run a guild.

I have to sit people out. I have to exclude people, some of whom I used to take. it isn't my decision,i'd take them if I could, but it simply isn't feasible. I (and people like me) can only do what is in front of me.

Why can't you take them? Tell me why.

Completely ignores the environment, therefore bobbins. If I wanted to start a track and field team and set the entry time where I knew at least 75% of all comers would never reach, did they fail or am I excluding them by design? There is nothing stopping them from running faster, after all.....

Both. It's unfair to say "you're the prick" though. And genetics kind of plays into how fast you can run ^.^ so... "bobbins?" was it?

By saying it's all on the players, you are removing the most important element which decides if something is wow is possible for people or not - the dev team.

No matter what the Dev team does, guilds will have a requirement. There is always a requirement.
You will always need gear, keyboard, mouse, a level 90 etc etc. Excluding players who don't play WoW!
My main point is you can't really talk about "exclusion" as a negative trait for raids. It's bullshit.

I say majority cos of participation rates.

Feel free to go off anecdote though, crack on.

You said "best" which has far more implications than "participation rates." It's like politician speak up in this bitch I swear.
Participation rates are no way to judge the quality of a raid.