Has the Alliance done anything bad in the Lore?

[Koryn123]

If we were to look at what they do like a lawyer does, where they question a witness to get the answer they want, then cut them off before they can provide context that would hurt the lawyer's case, they would be pretty grey.

Enslaving people/internment camps (needs context)

Betraying BEs in WC3 (even with context)

Betraying BEs again in 5.1 (understandable with context, a necessary action, if improperly handled)

The shenanigans that the Silver Covenant got up to during the Purge, strangling someone in midair, feeding to shark, murdering someone withdrawing their own assets from the bank as well as innocent shopkeepers and the innocent dragonhawks. (even with context)

Slaughtering the population of Stratholme (understandable with context, a necessary evil)

Spying on the BEs, having an ambassador there under false pretenses (there is speculation why it happened, but not 100% sure why)

Varian not helping Westfall, even after Onyxia was gone (not sure why Varian was sending people to Lordaeron to "reclaim" it for the Alliance when he should have been protecting the farmland in his own backyard. The little help he did send just made the People's Militia into sellouts that kept the homeless out of the safety of Sentinel Hill. All Stormwind did was make things worse)

Those are just some that come to mind.

[Wildberry]

Why do Horde players even think that killing Cenarius was wrong? Cenarius was a pompous ass that assisted the Night Elves in their unprovoked aggression, and died because of it.

[Koryn123]

Nothing they do that's bad lands on them, is all it is. Garithos just 'doesn't count', for example. Grom willingly drinks demon blood again and kills Cenarius -- lands on Horde. Arthas willingly takes up a cursed blade and damn near wipes out all life on half a continent on route to becoming Lich King -- he's corrupted, doesn't touch the Alliance of his era, let alone current. And so on.

People say he doesn't count because he was one individual, even though he was the leader, and all of his troops followed him, doing what he told them, and we don't see anybody in the Alliance disagree, not even in WoW.

Then they say the whole Horde is guilty for Garrosh, an individual, who forced everyone to do bad things under his command. The only difference is the other racial leaders disagreed with him from day one.

Not sure why they think that makes sense.

[Scummer]

Why do Horde players even think that killing Cenarius was wrong? Cenarius was a pompous ass that assisted the Night Elves in their unprovoked aggression, and died because of it.

That's a topic in of itself .

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People say he doesn't count because he was one individual, even though he was the leader, and all of his troops followed him, doing what he told them, and we don't see anybody in the Alliance disagree, not even in WoW.

Then they say the whole Horde is guilty for Garrosh, an individual, who forced everyone to do bad things under his command. The only difference is the other racial leaders disagreed with him from day one.

Not sure why they think that makes sense.

I feel that's ultimately the crux of the argument. What somebody actually defines as one of the factions doing something bad.

[Wildberry]

As a side note, I find it funny that Warcraft nowadays seems to have some sort of objective morality that's derived largely from 21st century First-World views. It effectively ensures that every major, Non-villain, character has a moral compass that puts Captain America to shame.

Thankfully, the Alliance has most of the insufferable paragons of "righteousness." Maybe one day they'll realize that these types of characters hold their story back.

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That's a topic in of itself

A logging operation in a seemingly empty forest is enough to warrant an attack as the first response? You'd have a case had they done anything other than shoot first.

[Stormdash]

As a side note, I find it funny that Warcraft nowadays seems to have some sort of objective morality that's derived largely from 21st century First-World views. It effectively ensures that every major, Non-villain, character has a moral compass that puts Captain America to shame.

Thankfully, the Alliance has most of the insufferable paragons of "righteousness." Maybe one day they'll realize that these types of characters hold their story back.

Hold it back from what? Art-house niche appreciation alongside art-house niche commercial success? Good and evil, right and wrong... there is a reason why they are a classic. They never go out of style. But no WoW faction has a monopoly on either of these.

[Wildberry]

There's a difference between a story showcasing a battle between Good and Evil (Like... The Lord of the Rings) and Comic book-tier writing.

Guess which one WoW has turned into...

[Mormolyce]

Garithos, but really Garithos was kind of an ass pull used to justify the Blood Elves leaving the Alliance. He makes no sense at all.

Taurajo looks really bad from the Horde point of view, on the other hand it's somewhat mitigated if you do it on the Alliance side and it turns out the commander in charge of the attack tried to let as many civilians escape as possible. Shrug. I think it's intentionally morally grey.

[Lady Dragonheart]

If we were to look at what they do like a lawyer does, where they question a witness to get the answer they want, then cut them off before they can provide context that would hurt the lawyer's case, they would be pretty grey.

Even as a judicial trial, the Alliance is still very clean in regards. Almost everything that is considered possibly bad had some sort of logical reason for it in the first place. Most of the time, things were a concept of circumstance or outside influence (like the Lich King and Arthas's tragedy).

Enslaving people/internment camps (needs context)

This was because the Orcs were an invasion army bent on slaughtering everyone they found on Azeroth and sacrificing them to their new demonic patrons. Technically, putting them in a camp (not even as slaves, if you read the lore, it's that they were not monsters like the orcs were and would rather house and supervise them than slaughter them after they were defeated). Providing this housing for the orcs heavily stresses the remaining resources of the humans and massive raised taxes in Lordaeron and allied nations. So much so, that Gilneas flat out refused to pay taxes to show mercy to the alien invaders that slaughtered their people and worshiped demons.

Betraying BEs in WC3 (even with context)

There wasn't a betrayal, Silvermoon was sacked because no messenger was sent (a WC3 mission is centered around killing all their messengers so no one could help Silvermoon). Then later, after the sacking of Silvermoon, they turned to demons and fel-magic (the same influence that was responsible for the horde invasion the generation prior) and then they were wondering why they were discriminated against? Seriously? "Hey buddy, I know you couldn't save my city because we never got the call out, but we're in bed with the demons that were responsible for killing your parents, can we be friends?" /sarcasm

Betraying BEs again in 5.1 (understandable with context, a necessary action, if improperly handled)

It was proven that the Sun Reavers were indeed harboring things against Jaina and the Kirin'tor. While Jaina's measures were extreme, they were justified in the end. Also, the Sun Reavers were already Horde sympathizers and they kind of bombed Theramore... Seriously, the two of the three important people in Dalaran experienced MAJOR losses from the slaughter at Theramore, and the Sun Reavers are side against them anyway AND still do things behind their back anyway!

The shenanigans that the Silver Covenant got up to during the Purge, strangling someone in midair, feeding to shark, murdering someone withdrawing their own assets from the bank as well as innocent shopkeepers and the innocent dragonhawks. (even with context)

As if the Horde has never done the same... smashing human seedlings and such among many other xenophobic quests. Regardless, it was surprise attack in retaliation for the stealing of the Bell, that is the nature of a surprise attack. This was a war after all, the fact that they even decided to take prisoners was merciful (and surprising considering everything that happened) after everything was found out and the Sun Reavers were indeed harboring things against Jaina and the Kirin'tor.

Slaughtering the population of Stratholme (understandable with context, a necessary evil)

That was legit, even with Mal'ganis's meddling. Arthas was freeing his infected people from servitude to the Lich King and Mal'ganis. It was necessary, if unfortunate.

Spying on the BEs, having an ambassador there under false pretenses (there is speculation why it happened, but not 100% sure why)

What? And why not? Specification required, I think. Also, war. Spies are commonplace in war, especially when they are your enemy and are influenced by demons.

Varian not helping Westfall, even after Onyxia was gone (not sure why Varian was sending people to Lordaeron to "reclaim" it for the Alliance when he should have been protecting the farmland in his own backyard. The little help he did send just made the People's Militia into sellouts that kept the homeless out of the safety of Sentinel Hill. All Stormwind did was make things worse)

After Onyxia was gone, the Cataclysm happened and that took attention and resources, obviously. Also, the people of Westfall didn't need protection, they needed a stable economy and homes to be built after the Cataclysm. Which is why Sentinel Hill was being fortified and expanded to accommodate them, only Vanessa turned the people against the guard instead by corrupting the people to rebel.

Those are just some that come to mind.

Yeah.

[Mormolyce]

There's a difference between a story showcasing a battle between Good and Evil (Like... The Lord of the Rings) and Comic book-tier writing.

Guess which one WoW has turned into...

Guess which one WoW always was?

Arguably Warcraft too.

[D-Throes]

Besides Daelin Proudmoore, the Alliance has or had some other "scumbag"?


- Momentanius

lol what? he wasn't a scumbag, he was doing the correct thing spilling horde blood, his daughter on the other hand...

[Lady Dragonheart]

Garithos, but really Garithos was kind of an ass pull used to justify the Blood Elves leaving the Alliance. He makes no sense at all.

Taurajo looks really bad from the Horde point of view, on the other hand it's somewhat mitigated if you do it on the Alliance side and it turns out the commander in charge of the attack tried to let as many civilians escape as possible. Shrug. I think it's intentionally morally grey.

Bane also stated that Taurajo was indeed a military standing and that it made sense as to why the Alliance considered it threatening.

Also, you have to consider, in defense of Garithos, the Blood Elves turned to demonic fel-magic, the same influence that caused the original horde invasion that cost thousands of lives and devastated the land. Also, Garithos was a Blackgaurd, which was technically an anti-paladin. Not a Death Knight who is innately evil. A Knight who is against the ways of the paladin and finds them to be either useless, foolish, or downright anti-productive.

That and he was just a dick... being a dick who was a bit racist (and hilarious) doesn't make him evil though.

[Aquamonkey]

Also, you have to consider, in defense of Garithos, the Blood Elves turned to demonic fel-magic, the same influence that caused the original horde invasion that cost thousands of lives and devastated the land. Also, Garithos was a Blackgaurd, which was technically an anti-paladin. Not a Death Knight who is innately evil. A Knight who is against the ways of the paladin and finds them to be either useless, foolish, or downright anti-productive.

That didn't happen until Kael fled to Outland and allied with Illidan. And even then only the 15% who followed him there knew it was fel magic, the rest on Azeroth had no idea.

[Koryn123]

Even as a judicial trial, the Alliance is still very clean in regards. Almost everything that is considered possibly bad had some sort of logical reason for it in the first place. Most of the time, things were a concept of circumstance or outside influence (like the Lich King and Arthas's tragedy).



This was because the Orcs were an invasion army bent on slaughtering everyone they found on Azeroth and sacrificing them to their new demonic patrons. Technically, putting them in a camp (not even as slaves, if you read the lore, it's that they were not monsters like the orcs were and would rather house and supervise them than slaughter them after they were defeated). Providing this housing for the orcs heavily stresses the remaining resources of the humans and massive raised taxes in Lordaeron and allied nations. So much so, that Gilneas flat out refused to pay taxes to show mercy to the alien invaders that slaughtered their people and worshiped demons.



There wasn't a betrayal, Silvermoon was sacked because no messenger was sent (a WC3 mission is centered around killing all their messengers so no one could help Silvermoon). Then later, after the sacking of Silvermoon, they turned to demons and fel-magic (the same influence that was responsible for the horde invasion the generation prior) and then they were wondering why they were discriminated against? Seriously? "Hey buddy, I know you couldn't save my city because we never got the call out, but we're in bed with the demons that were responsible for killing your parents, can we be friends?" /sarcasm



It was proven that the Sun Reavers were indeed harboring things against Jaina and the Kirin'tor. While Jaina's measures were extreme, they were justified in the end. Also, the Sun Reavers were already Horde sympathizers and they kind of bombed Theramore... Seriously, the two of the three important people in Dalaran experienced MAJOR losses from the slaughter at Theramore, and the Sun Reavers are side against them anyway AND still do things behind their back anyway!



As if the Horde has never done the same... smashing human seedlings and such among many other xenophobic quests. Regardless, it was surprise attack in retaliation for the stealing of the Bell, that is the nature of a surprise attack. This was a war after all, the fact that they even decided to take prisoners was merciful (and surprising considering everything that happened) after everything was found out and the Sun Reavers were indeed harboring things against Jaina and the Kirin'tor.



That was legit, even with Mal'ganis's meddling. Arthas was freeing his infected people from servitude to the Lich King and Mal'ganis. It was necessary, if unfortunate.



What? And why not? Specification required, I think. Also, war. Spies are commonplace in war, especially when they are your enemy and are influenced by demons.



After Onyxia was gone, the Cataclysm happened and that took attention and resources, obviously. Also, the people of Westfall didn't need protection, they needed a stable economy and homes to be built after the Cataclysm. Which is why Sentinel Hill was being fortified and expanded to accommodate them, only Vanessa turned the people against the guard instead by corrupting the people to rebel.


Yeah.

That's exactly what I'm talking about where people say it's not evil/bad because the Horde does something similar/worse. And no, that's not what happened in that mission. Sylvanas was sending messengers to Silvermoon to warn them/tell them to send out the big guns and help her stop Arthas. If you don't prevent messengers from reaching the city, the Silvermoon Team sends units to attack you along with the Ranger Corps. Team. They weren't sending messengers outside Quel'thalas. And I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about how Garithos hated Elves, sent them on suicide missions, got mad when they survived, and sentenced them all to death for accepting help from a non-hostile but ugly faction in the naga.

I was saying lots of those things were bad with no context. The imprisoning/enslaving orcs is not bad when you know why they did it, because the Orcs were a defeated enemy army that tried to kill them all. The Purge of Dalaran was a necessary act, but doesn't justify the behavior of the Silver Covenant. The Sunreavers as a whole were not involved. Garrosh set them up by employing Fanlyr Silverthorn to get the Divine Bell through Dalaran's portal network. Jaina couldn't trust that there wouldn't be more traitors among them, so it is understandable why she banished them.

You can't sit there with a straight face and say that strangling someone and feeding them to a shark is okay, even if the Sunreavers as a whole were guilty. I'm not saying the Purge wasn't justified and please don't think I am and turn this thread into a 20-page brain-cell killer.

The spies I'm referring to are in the Blood Elf starting quests, canonically before they even considered joining the Horde. They asked the Alliance for help. The Alliance sent armed Night Elf spies into the Ghostlands and Eversong Woods. Prospector Anvilward was an ambassador from Ironforge only there to feed information to the spies. The Horde on the other hand (specifically Sylvanas) sent aid in troops to hold the Ghostlands against the Scourge.

The Sentinel Hill guard were not helping the people. There are literally signs all over the place saying "NO TRANSIENTS ALLOWED" and armed guards preventing them entry into the safety of the town. Varian did not need to go invade Lordaeron, but he did, while his people starve and/or die everywhere outside Stormwind and Elwynn Forest.

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Bane also stated that Taurajo was indeed a military standing and that it made sense as to why the Alliance considered it threatening.

Also, you have to consider, in defense of Garithos, the Blood Elves turned to demonic fel-magic, the same influence that caused the original horde invasion that cost thousands of lives and devastated the land. Also, Garithos was a Blackgaurd, which was technically an anti-paladin. Not a Death Knight who is innately evil. A Knight who is against the ways of the paladin and finds them to be either useless, foolish, or downright anti-productive.

That and he was just a dick... being a dick who was a bit racist (and hilarious) doesn't make him evil though.

The Blood Elves had not turned to fel magic yet. Not until after they joined Illidan (because Garithos forced their hand). Do you believe Garrosh was evil? He was a racist genocidal egomaniac, too, just like Garithos.

[Angel of Justice]

People saying "internment camps/enslaving orcs" wat? They were POW's from the 2nd war,if it was up to Trollbane and Gen Greymane they would've been killed instead. This way it made Gilneas quit the alliance as they didn't want to pay taxes for the camps. There weren't really enslaved,except maybe in Durnholde Keep where Blackmoore was the warden,and he was a drunk idiot.
OT - I don't really think theres much Alliance has done "bad" or purely evil,it all depends on the point of view tbh. Like Daelin proudmoore,hero to some,evil bastard to some, Purge of Dalaran, justified punishment for grand treason or terrible genocide by an evil witch etc.

Also people defending Garithos,jeez. He declared himself Marshal after Lorderon collapsed (Would probably be in prison/executed for treason if Lordaeron still existed) and continued being a prick to any non-human (probably humans too) he was written this way so they could split off Blood Elves from the alliance.
Also wasn't Camp Taurajo evacuated and only had soldiers/guards in there? Alliance lost the dwarven dig in barrens,lost Theramore and lost Northwatch hold. Taurajo was just payback (everyone was slaughtered in Theramore/Northwatch including the non-combatants).

[zoomgpally]

You must really hate the expansion, since the Iron Horde can't play the victim card and blame their blood thirst on the draenei and demon blood, instead showing it to be their true nature.

Not to mention the draenei didn't create the problem, sargaras did. The draenei could chose to run from the problem or become part of it.

[inboundpaper]

Shooting all those Orc's during the Pandaria intro.

[zoomgpally]

oh damn i forgot arthas...there is some evil for ya

Nah, making a massive undead army to take over the world is fine if you are human...

...if he was a blood elf, people would be screaming for his execution since WC3 release

[Graeham]

Garithos, but really Garithos was kind of an ass pull used to justify the Blood Elves leaving the Alliance. He makes no sense at all.

Taurajo looks really bad from the Horde point of view, on the other hand it's somewhat mitigated if you do it on the Alliance side and it turns out the commander in charge of the attack tried to let as many civilians escape as possible. Shrug. I think it's intentionally morally grey.

It makes a lot of sense. Garithos wasn't a nice guy, though neither were many humans in this setting. Racism and xenophobia was very common back in Garithos' era yet a lot of that has mysteriously vanished. Plus it wasn't just Garithos who screwed over the blood elves. The Kirin Tor turned a blind eye and then when the blood elves were finally free to fend for themselves the Alliance didn't send aid as a gesture of good faith, they sent spies and armed combatants instead.

Obviously the blood elves were added to the Horde partially due to the need for the faction to have an aesthetically pleasing race but it's been done in a very in-depth and satisfying manner where the lore is concerned.

[lokinrond713]

Garithos (though many alliance consider him a rogue agent)
Stiffing the masons on their pay and inadvertently creating the Defias
Sacking of Taurojo though the wild spread destruction wasnt intended by the commander in charge
Jaina kicking the BElf out of Dalaran but she wasnt part of the alliance yet