Muslim workers in Fort Morgan fired over prayer dispute walkout

[Deleted]

Easy answer if you don't want to make gay wedding cakes don't sell any wedding cakes.

[Endus]

It seems like the issue was that the time was always changing, and that the new time was not workable. It says they used break times and lunch breaks previously.

We haven't gotten enough info to really make the call, but the way the article phrases it makes it seem like the employer just stopped allowing them to take their breaks at those times, and required them to take the breaks he assigned. And if the line was running fine beforehand, he doesn't really have grounds to make that decision.

Now, if he had a policy of "take your breaks whenever, but try not to have too many people off the line at a time", and the Muslim workers all took off regardless at prayer times, causing the line to have issues, and this was a recent change which forced the policy adjustment to prevent it, then I'd side with the employer. But that involves a lot more information and assumptions than what we have, so Occam's Razor means I shouldn't presume this to be the case, unless that info comes forward.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Easy answer if you don't want to make gay wedding cakes don't sell any wedding cakes.

Or make it a private establishment then you can deny making a cake for anyone you want.

[Tijuana]

A lot of the issues regarding homosexuality and religion conflicting would get a lot easier if we amended the constitution to elevate sexual preference to protected class status. I think that is long over due.

[Mistame]

I thought the SCOTUS already ruled against that?

That may be the case. I don't know. Hence the post.

In this case, that work is "making a cake", not "supporting gay marriage". It doesn't matter what the product will be used for.

Well yeah, if it's not a custom cake designed specifically for the couple.

This isn't really true. At best, it means that particular employee could avoid working on that particular project, but the business still has to serve the customer.

Right, which was the point I was making.

Their religious rights end where their customer's rights to not be discriminated against begins.

But the "one's rights end where the rights of another begins" works both ways. Anyhow, I'm just trying to see where the legal divide is, not trying to derail the thread.

On topic: We've heard of examples where people have to halt meetings, maintain silence, etc, while Muslim employees pray but that seems like a bit of an overreach, as individuals are not obligated to honor the "religious freedom" of others, especially at the cost of their own "religious freedoms". Let them pray, but only as long as no one else has to compensate for them, be put out by it or even listen to it. /shrug

Easy answer if you don't want to make gay wedding cakes don't sell any wedding cakes.

The logic solution, if you're that absurd in your beliefs, would be to not make custom cakes.

[Dextroden]

Can a Muslim male in an office setting claim discrimination in the work place if women aren't forced to wear hijabs around him?

[Mistame]

Can a Muslim male in an office setting claim discrimination in the work place if women aren't forced to wear hijabs around him?

No. Your religious beliefs don't extend to others in that regard.

[Deleted]

The logic solution, if you're that absurd in your beliefs, would be to not make custom cakes.

Exactly but they don't want to lose out on that business.

Alternative would to shedule a female only seminar in which you
offer the order.. or something

[Mistame]

Exactly but they don't want to lose out on that business.

Then they should either deal with it or piss off. Making "fabulous" wedding cakes seems like a hella way to bring in more profits.

[stormgust]

If that's what would have to happen, I'd agree, though there's probably some compromise that could be made (letting Muslims have their breaks closest to that desired time slot, for instance).

If the work flow is structured sequentially and a larger group of the workers in question happen to work on the production step, there's not much room for a compromise. Delay one part, and you delay everything following it.

That this was a recent policy change, and that the factory was running just fine before this policy change even with these workers taking those break times, this makes me doubt that they'd actually have to shut the whole line down. I agree that if that's the only way they could manage the breaks, it would be undue hardship, I just don't see much reason to believe that it's true.

Otherwise, I don't see how the factory was managing, prior to the policy change.

They identified a factor leading to decreased efficiency, they changed policy to increase efficiency. That's just standard business practice (i.e. maximizing profit)

[Revi]

They had a special area and were allowed to go a few at a time. I think it's completely unreasonable to demand to be allowed to basically shut down production because they want to go recite some special words multiple times a day.

[Deleted]

They had a special area and were allowed to go a few at a time. I think it's completely unreasonable to demand to be allowed to basically shut down production because they want to go recite some special words multiple times a day.

I have no doubt that they can make it plausible that 200 people stopping to work is just
not possible without slowing down production.

[Deleted]

I have no doubt that they can make it plausible that 200 people stopping to work is just
not possible without slowing down production.

That's still a good chunk of production removed due to magic words.

[Rennadrel]

That never happens. Nations go to war for their own interests, not humanitarian reasons.

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I think it's fair to say stopping an assembly line for prayer is not a reasonable accommodation. I have worked with many Muslims who were allowed to leave their work area to pray but, they didn't depend on the kind of constant employee interaction like an assembly line does.

I work with one who does and his job does not require him to be on the floor all 8 hours of the working day, and he was given his freedom to have a prayer session, which quite frankly no one cares about in our work place because it's a pretty laid back place to work. So long as it doesn't interfere with the ability for one to do their job in a productive manner and doesn't cost the company in productivity or operating costs, it should never be an issue. Don't want the majority of your staff walking off the assembly line to go do a prayer? Don't hire a whole boat load of them, or stipulate that their prayer time comes out of their lunch break. There has to be some give and take obviously, but when the majority of employees working there are all interrupting the work flow because they want to go and pray (which no law other than religious says they must), obviously either they need to learn to have rotating sessions or the company needs to not hire a bunch of cheap labor.

- - - Updated - - -

I have no doubt that they can make it plausible that 200 people stopping to work is just
not possible without slowing down production.

In a world of high volume productivity, I bet you they have some high quality maths and charts to prove that the prayer times would indeed impact their productivity. Especially on a daily basis.

[TirielWoW]

Of course not, Christians instead do shit like deny gay married couples their licenses and get lauded by the Pope for it.


[Infracted]

The Pope did not laud her for anything. He apparently didn't even know who she was and didn't actually speak to her.

[TirielWoW]

If that's what would have to happen, I'd agree, though there's probably some compromise that could be made (letting Muslims have their breaks closest to that desired time slot, for instance).

That this was a recent policy change, and that the factory was running just fine before this policy change even with these workers taking those break times, this makes me doubt that they'd actually have to shut the whole line down. I agree that if that's the only way they could manage the breaks, it would be undue hardship, I just don't see much reason to believe that it's true.

Otherwise, I don't see how the factory was managing, prior to the policy change.

They may not have been managing. In fact, they may have been losing money.

[TirielWoW]

In this case, that work is "making a cake", not "supporting gay marriage". It doesn't matter what the product will be used for.

I would imagine that it matters very much to the person doing the baking.

I mean, honestly what this results in is bakeries that refuse to handle weddings at all.

This isn't really true. At best, it means that particular employee could avoid working on that particular project, but the business still has to serve the customer. Their religious rights end where their customer's rights to not be discriminated against begins.

It's a private business. No one who is employed there signed a form saying they'd have to violate their moral and religious beliefs to get the job. It's not public service, and it's not like there are no other options, or as if they'd taken the people's money, started on the project and THEN said, "Oh sorry, we don't make cakes like that." If they were the only bakery available, I could understand. But there are other bakeries available who would be happy to take their money. Instead, they decided to destroy the bakery they knew ahead of time would be a problem.

[TirielWoW]

Or make it a private establishment then you can deny making a cake for anyone you want.

According to Endus, even a private establishment can't deny service

[Deleted]

According to Endus, even a private establishment can't deny service

It can if it excludes guys and is in canada....
but that was a different story.

Good old ladys only bicycle shop.

[TirielWoW]

It can if it excludes guys and is in canada....
but that was a different story.

In certain states here, it is the same. Not in my state, but I think Washington and Oregon and possibly California and New York.