Guild Wars 2: The One Thread

[Karizee]

The thread about that mod on the official forums was deleted for discussing "cheat/exploits/etc."

[Meledelion]

Maybe because of a lack of better naming?

Like you can't report someone for afking either...

here is irony for yah they had no basis to delete my thread on the official forums so they claim I linked to hack cheat software, when I only linked to the general reddit gw2 sub forum http://en.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2[1] , talk about unwarranted deletion much ! since when is linking to general reddit an offense ? I didn't even link to your post directly, whoever read my forum post still needed to search reddit for your post on their own.

[rhandric]

I'm trying to get an answer to the following.
Let's say there is a DPS-meter to the extent of recount/skada/... in GW2. Now what negatives come from this?
And give me examples of how using dps-meters wrongly would impact the game.
(those are probably the same but w/e)

Example: I'm a buffer who provides less dps than a straight dps build, but improve the damage and surv of the group (cba to actually figure out class/build for that, just an example; same goes for numbers used - completely made up for illustration purposes).
Misuse of dps meters shows that I do 6k dps vs 8k for everyone else in group (which without me would be, say, 5k). Sure, tool might show that I'm providing 25 stacks of might and fury (or w/e else), and that I both put out combo fields and finished fields, but since I "only" did 6k dps, the rest of the group decides to kick me.

This is a case of me doing it right, and the tool even giving the right information, but poor utilization of the tool (everything's a nail...) leads to the outcome.

[Meledelion]

The same thing happens now with mis-attribution of bad DPS.

I've kicked many axe+shield/gs warriors (on the premise of, they're using a shield = bad) and it's highly likely that some of those were better players than some axe+mace/gs people that got to stay in the party.

I've seen people advertise for XK AP (on the premise that <X = bad player).

I doubt that people who don't care about what weapons/class you use will be bothered with how much DPS you do, it's illogical (but then again humans are illogical).

[nevermore]

If you join my party as a warrior and you swap to your rifle you're gone

I still don't get why you're so against having a ranged weapon equipped.
I mean, every now and then while doing dungeons/fractals I find myself in a situation where I'm basically forced to go ranged, especially since aggro is fairly random in this game. So I might as well use my ranged weapon rather than standing there looking pretty till my heal cd is over.

I know, surely the only reason is that I'm horrible at this game. But then again there are a lot of random events that can get your health low no matter how skilled you are, and you just can't afford going into melee range for a while.

Sooo... what's wrong with swapping to rifle/longbow?

[draykorinee]

Sooo... what's wrong with swapping to rifle/longbow?

Elitests need no reason, if it adds .10 seconds to a kill, you're gone.

[Deleted]

Dps meters: It'll spoil all the fun I have in a game.

Being kicked for not playing 'like the best'. I'm ok with 'best as I can do', thank you very much.
The game is about the enjoyment of playing with each other. Not a race for 'highest' DPS in a party (not to mention that's not even important).

[rhandric]

Ah, but Mele, ignorance is bliss If currently, someone doesn't care about what weapons someone uses, but then is given a tool to see how much dps people do...yes, there are those players who still wouldn't care, but...

Well, think of a bell curve. Currently, probably only the right tail of the bell curve (<2.5% or so) care about the weapons. Looking closer at that bell curve of players (performance), the left tail (another ~2.5%) doesn't care about their performance, or that of those they play with, and just play to have fun. The center of the curve (~95%) care about their own performance, and as long as they're having fun and getting stuff done, don't care significantly about those they play with. But if you add in a dps meter, you'd get the left tail still playing as is, but then you'd divide the center probably roughly in half: the left half of the center would be those who improperly use the meters, the right half would be those who use the meters properly. Of course, you might also shift the bell curve, and possibly lengthen one of the tails, but let's ignore that effect Looking at it like that, you've really only put a tool into the "wrong" hands of ~47.5% of the players, with the other 52.5% either using it right or not caring (the right half and the left tail). But in doing so, those 47.5% of the players will make ~97.5% of the players lives miserable (all but the right tail, who probably already only play within that subset of players).

[Meledelion]

I hope you don't find this insulting, but I'm going to try the Socratic method, I in no way intend to talk down on you or belittle you.

First off, I'm going to interject something regarding an argument you didn't make (but others usually do).

1. How many fights do you know that "need" to be fought at range (ranged) over all dungeons/fractals?
2. How many fights do you know that "need" to be fought at melee (meleed) over all dungeons/fractals?
3. How many fights do you know that "need" to be fought at melee (meleed) over all dungeons/fractals require you to REGULARLY swap to ranged?
4. How many ranged weapons do you know that "buff/support" the group?
5. How many melee weapons do you know that "buff/support" the group?
6. How many ranged weapons do you know that do cleave/AoE damage?
7. How many melee weapons do you know that do cleave/AoE damage?


1. I'm going to guess it's less than 5
2. I'm going to guess it's higher than 1.
3. I'm going to guess it's around 1.
4. In terms of applying vulnerability afaik there's only the engineer, might is usually applied by (PB)AoE skills but only one class (ele) can give both blast finishers and fire fields.
5. Top of my head 10 over different classes.
6. Bows/rifles/scepters, mes GS,... all don't.
7. Every single one cleaves aside from daggers on casters

Add to this that melee>ranged in terms of raw dps and that melee means more boon uptime for the team and you get why melee is far superior.

Now why not bring a ranged weapon and just have it there "in case".
You actually never need to get out of melee long enough to warrant the DPS-loss of using a ranged weapon. On a similar note, people tend to get scared really fast and just swap while there wasn't really a need to (it's OK to sit at 20%hp for 10s, if you know what to dodge).

http://youtu.be/_H5DwmbgvwQ?t=6m30s here's an example, where he switches to bow when it's not needed at all (6m55), with better understanding of the game it becomes clear that you hardly ever need to swap. Add to this that as a warrior the best DPS you can get relies on you using axe+mace/gs and that you can't really drop either sets.

In short, because you slow us down 0.10s per kill!


- - - Updated - - -

Dps meters: It'll spoil all the fun I have in a game.

Being kicked for not playing 'like the best'. I'm ok with 'best as I can do', thank you very much.
The game is about the enjoyment of playing with each other. Not a race for 'highest' DPS in a party (not to mention that's not even important).

That's ok, but I take it you wouldn't want to be in a party that I run anyway.

There's a couple of requirements you have to meet, before we start even without a DPS-meter being in place.

before the run:
1. are you the asked class?
2. english mothertrucker, do you speak it?
3. do you have the gear we want?
during the run:
4. do you use the gear we want?(hit that god damn weaponswap button if you're a warrior!)
5. are you on your feet more than on your back?

A dps meter would only change that last part to
4. are you doing the DPS that is "normal" for a PUG.

There are a couple of positives that I already listed. It's fine if you want to play however you play but a DPS meter will only force you to change IF you pug. So IF you pug (and are now a minority instead of majority) you'll have to do what carebears (now the majority instead of the minority) and only run with guildies/friends.

- - - Updated - - -

snip

I object your Honor, SPECULATION!

How will they make the others' lives miserable? Do you really take a party kick that seriously? Hell, what if w/e comments you receive are justified? "Look bob, you're a nice guy but you are 4ft5 and we need a guy who can reach the top shelves."

I think this topic has run it's course, I take it you understand me and I understand you and in all honesty we won't know unless a dps-meter gets implemented.

[rhandric]

You're right, it is speculation You're also right that we understand each other - you just seem to be more optimistic of the effects a dps meter would have on the game/community, while I tend to be more jaded about gaming internet communities

[Deleted]

That's ok, but I take it you wouldn't want to be in a party that I run anyway.

[...]

No, I would avoid your party at all costs.
Doesn't sound like a 'party' to me

I understand why you would like a DPS meter, but it'll be just another requirement. And it might be abused. Not everyone tells the requirements beforehand like you do.

Also a Socratic method online isn't really helping anything, since it doesn't work as good on a forum as it would in a real dialog xD

[Meledelion]

Problem is people don't think about what's being posted. Atleast by asking questions I can ensure people stop and think for a second instead of just repeating w/e they read somewhere else on the internet (which they also didn't think about)...

This usually happens in regards to theory-crafting though and since weapons are a part of theorycrafting I found/find it fitting.

[Fencers]

I usually don't have need of a DPS meter. Becasue I usually am a tank in games where those kind of tools are used. However, I have never seen anyone "kicked" for poor DPS in my experience. It seems the healers and tanks tend to get the wrong end of the stick in those toxic situations.

Though I have to say, even that is rare in my experience. Now I don't doubt that a Nelly Nobody playing World of Warcraft has faced the ire of the LFD group more than once or twice in the lifespan of that game. Yet I feel the negativity around things like DPS meters, general addons, LFG/D tools and so forth is mostly a vocal component of World of Warcraft players [former or present] based on the particular culture of that game.

Rarely do I read "horror stories", hysterics or passionate arguments against game features such as DPS meters or addons among exclusive players of like Age of Conan, The Secret World, Heroes of Newerth or Allods.

I believe a lot of negativity around those type of features is centered in game culture and visibility. Not the actual tools themselves.

[lawow74]

I personally would hope ANet stands by their 'reading memory=bannable offense' policy should DPS meters become viable a'la Recount/Skada in GW, so if people use them to measure their personal damage, great, fine, no worries. The second they start linking info to groups, it becomes something you can report people for and get them banhammered. Do it with people you trust and know are interested in that info, you're fine. Do it with random folks, especially in a deprecating fashion...

And I just recalled back in the day of GW, they had a DPS NPC on the Zaishen Isles. Maybe they should just add something like that somewhere in the Heart of the Mists?

[Meledelion]

I personally would hope ANet stands by their 'reading memory=bannable offense' policy should DPS meters become viable a'la Recount/Skada in GW, so if people use them to measure their personal damage, great, fine, no worries.

Let's ban the guy who runs gw2spidy!

If they ban for reading memory, say Byebye to spidy, legendary crafter,...

[lawow74]

Let's ban the guy who runs gw2spidy!

If they ban for reading memory, say Byebye to spidy, legendary crafter,...

If they can show you're doing it. Like someone has mentioned already, there's rarely any way to prove such things unless you basically wave a big flag that says 'LOOK AT ME, I'M FLAUNTING THE TOS!' Someone starts posting logs in chat from a DPS meter, that's pretty succinct proof. Don't make it obvious you're doing it and you have nothing to worry about.

[Karizee]

Let's ban the guy who runs gw2spidy!

If they ban for reading memory, say Byebye to spidy, legendary crafter,...

:/

No, that site is part of the API program. Quit trying scare tactics, you're not dealing with 12yo's here.

Look, I understand the value of those kinds of tools in games like WoW and used them extensively when I played. Recount, Simcraft, World of Logs - a good chunk of my time was spent either going over those logs or tweaking macros and UIs to give me better performance or information. It made sense in WoW since there was no synergy between the DPS classes, so for a DPSer it was all about how much damage they could put out.

As I stated above, a straight DPS tool just really doesn't work with the combat in GW2 due to all the interaction between the players. It's too difficult to tease out what/who contributed what in an easily accessible and understandable way that would not undermine the teamplay philosophies and systems of the game.

[Svifnymr]

You're right, it is speculation You're also right that we understand each other - you just seem to be more optimistic of the effects a dps meter would have on the game/community, while I tend to be more jaded about gaming internet communities

To be fair, his optimism is well founded for his particular sphere/style of play. His groups would benefit from a dps meter.

The issue really is... hrm, what to call it. There is this thing online, where somehow "useful for optimum performance" becomes "mandatory for doing any content". The average player right now, is unable to tell what dps you're doing. They can't exclude because of that and so they don't exclude unless there's something obvious going on. As an example, how many groups want all 80s? You unlock your abilities a lot lower than that, and the level altering doesn't seem linear. A friend of mine that is a worse altaholic than me (I'm at 9, she's at 12) runs dungeons all day long, when switching to an alt, she is often excluded from dungeons if its a low level alt.

- - - Updated - - -

I usually don't have need of a DPS meter. Becasue I usually am a tank in games where those kind of tools are used. However, I have never seen anyone "kicked" for poor DPS in my experience. It seems the healers and tanks tend to get the wrong end of the stick in those toxic situations.

The one event that always sticks in my mind (though there were a lot more kicks than this once), was an Utgard heroic back in late Wrath. I was on my lock, there was a mage from Premonition and this enhance shaman as dps. We're rolling through smashing everything like it's paper, and a kick prompt comes up to kick the shaman for "low dps". I click "no" and keep going, another couple groups fall and the prompt comes up again. I click no again and the mage speaks up "whoever is trying to kick the shaman, stop it, the lock and I are killing everything fast enough" and we kept going without another kick attempt.
I don't recall the actual numbers, it's been forever. The shaman was doing around the same damage as the tank. I don't know if it was gear, or play, or just simply that the shaman never got the time to DO dps.

The kick attempts probably delayed us more than any dps loss from having him may have though.

[Meledelion]

:/
No, that site is part of the API program. Quit trying scare tactics, you're not dealing with 12yo's here.

You realise that the program used for the api is also reading memory right?
Ergo if they ban anyone for using a program that reads the memory of the game, they should also ban the guy who runs spidey.

I'm not trying to scare anyone, I'm trying to point out that the reason for banning one thing would mean that other things have to be banned as well.

[Arlee]

The one event that always sticks in my mind (though there were a lot more kicks than this once), was an Utgard heroic back in late Wrath. I was on my lock, there was a mage from Premonition and this enhance shaman as dps. We're rolling through smashing everything like it's paper, and a kick prompt comes up to kick the shaman for "low dps". I click "no" and keep going, another couple groups fall and the prompt comes up again. I click no again and the mage speaks up "whoever is trying to kick the shaman, stop it, the lock and I are killing everything fast enough" and we kept going without another kick attempt.
I don't recall the actual numbers, it's been forever. The shaman was doing around the same damage as the tank. I don't know if it was gear, or play, or just simply that the shaman never got the time to DO dps.

The kick attempts probably delayed us more than any dps loss from having him may have though.

Bah that's crap... glad to hear people didn't just mindlessly vote to kick him though. /some faith in humanity restored