Disc Vs Holy 5.2

[Yvaelle]

Everyone refrain from flaming each other I don't like handing out infractions to my Priesties (PvP forums are another matter >: ) but I'm going to have to if this continues. Consider this a warning

[HPLathus]

God has spoken.

[Yvaelle]

God has spoken.

Elune?

I am a shadowpriest, my god is a wordless whisper, spoken from the gaping mouth of a universe void of meaning. A single solitary hymn, that shatters the very soul.

[Blachshma]

Let him hold his raid back with the pro holy heals and continue calling autistic /threads all over the forums, he will go away at some point, they all do.
its obvious he has some strange hipster boner for holy, strong enough to hurt his progression, I don't know why... maybe because he wants to feel unique, maybe he wants to rank high, hell maybe he just doesn't like to learn fights to shield ahead of time, all that is on him.

Just take everything he says with a grain of salt.



And bout the specs, I honestly think disc will perform even better on 10 mans, even better than on live. (kind of funny)
and I just have no idea how we will heal intense raid damage when SS is on CD, it does sound like holy will be the 25 man winner, but since there's just way too many 10 mans, disc will continue to be the dominant spec for the community.
Of course all this changes from fight to fight, but I think that will be the general overview.

I gotta say, while I don't really care about the fight going on between you two nor am I participating in it, posts like this do make me wonder why I'm playing this game. It also shows a very wrong side of the community. You write "Let him his raid back with the pro holy heals" - saying stuff like hat doesn't only make me, as holy, feel uncomfortable, its pretty much downright violent behavior as well. Its exactly the type of posts I was reffering to in my post on the 2nd page of this thread - if I'm a jerk for playing the spec I'm good at and feel comfortable with (and I've never been a great disc priest as well), then why would I keep playing this game? If they bench me because I choose a bad spec, then fine, it makes sense, but do I need to be called a jerk as well? That doesn't make any sense, and your post pretty much says that. Sad times.

Some priests really need to stop bullying others.

[Skadovsk]

Too much cancer

[Vaterheiler]

The blank you listed is for a noun, not an adjective. I don't find him irritating in the least bit. The theory behind each spec is different and I find myself switching between both specs depending on the fight. I prefer discipline, but I have healed every boss this tier using both specs and they are both very useful and fun. (Garalon is definitely much easier as Holy IMHO.)

[Deleted]

God so many clueless oppinions.... Let us dispel some myths

Holy has the same throughput as disc atm. There is nothing you can heal as disc that you cant heal equally well as holy. Especially when you can't hit 4-5 targets consistently with PoH, holy is better. Looking at garalon heroic proves that (Especially on 10man).

However disc for most of the encounters in this tier is ridiculously overpowered for a variety of reasons. Mana regen is very high, allowing disc to constantly spam high HPS spells when played properly. Almost all fights are very spikey giving disc plenty of opportunities to stack large absorb buffers and eat up a lot of the incoming damage during the spikes. A large number of heroic encounters also have huge damage buffs on the boss, which makes atonement really really OP (penance totalling up nearly a million on windlord hc is a bit ridiculous).

Despite these issues currently holy is a really really strong spec. Its just masked by the fact that disc is so stupidly OP, because of a few bad decisions by the devs and the design of the encounters.

If anyone is telling you that you should be disc or you are nerfing your raid for 25man, they are idiots. There are 4 maybe 5 encouters in the whole tier where being disc really makes a dramatic difference to your raid. For 10man there are a few more encounters where disc is beneficial, because atonement is strong on many progress fights atm and it can really help your raid beat enrage timers.

You can still see a number of holy priest creeping up in the top of the ranks and plenty of guilds beat all hc content without using a disc priest.

Come 5.2 atonement is buffed, while PoH and spirit shell is nerfed drastically for PoH, but especially for single target heals. So now disc is a niche spec. For those fights where atonement shines and which are generally low HPS, with long periods of low damage alternating with hard spikes, disc is now balanced at least for 10man.

Any fight where you have more or less constant damage, any fight where you want to cast PoH a lot, any fight which has high HPS, holy is going to beat disc consistently.

Atonement and eminence are big things for 10man. With big damage buffs on the boss atonement is not only strong for healing, it also adds much needed extra DPS.

I think on 10man disc is ok, except on high HPS or high aoe fights. If you have fights with long low damage and long high damage phases, disc is going to be extremely bad. A number of the PTR fights however are niche for disc, so disc can still do well, but for most them holy will be equal or better.

I don't know how these will translate on 25man, but my guess, is that unless some mechanics are one-shotting people no one will really bother playing disc.

So the answer to the original question is everything depends on what you are doing. If you are a 25man guild you better have a holy spec ready, because there is a high chance that most of the time you will be holy. For 10man, I dont think there is much to separate holy and disc, except on fights where atonement is really good.

The downside is that doing most of your healing with atonement makes the spec really boring. Ghostcrawler is an idiot as usual if he things these changes will encourage disc to use PWS more, what you can expect is that you will mostly spam atonement, then pop archangel and use spirit shell with PoH and then back to atonement. If there is an encounter, with slightly longer burst phases, you will want to be using BH and PoM, in addition to atonement.

[zyonkerz]

im 16/16H on 2 characters, 1 of them being my priest and although both specs are completely viable on any fight, disc is better IMO from all the fights ive healed as both specs. bringing a disc priest aside from the bubbles and absorbs, is the dps. no the dps dont "need to step it up". some fights, garajal during progression, heroic sha and other enrage tight fights, disc would be the winner because it can do 50k dps. the time for pure healer is gone, now if you heal, you also have to dps during any downtime you have when healing. thats what separates the good healers from the sub-par ones. just because youre a healer, does not mean that you just sit there when you have nothing to heal, now you have to dps.

How dare you 16/16HM (x2) bring your experience based insight into Lathus's 6/16HM arrogant posts! What part of /thread did YOU NOT UNDERSTAND!

[HPLathus]

How dare you 16/16HM (x2) bring your experience based insight into Lathus's 6/16HM arrogant posts! What part of /thread did YOU NOT UNDERSTAND!

People who cleared HC content as disc, without ever even considering holy as an option will not understand that much is true.


They never took the time to play holy on progression to see how it really worked, they automatically went disc knowing that at moments it is extremely OP on certain fights. Thus, not having the EXP as holy to understand that it actually works quite well if played right.



As havoc said[very well mind you] holy is just as good as disc, each just shine brighter on different fights.

[fixall]

God so many clueless oppinions.... Let us dispel some myths

Holy has the same throughput as disc atm. There is nothing you can heal as disc that you cant heal equally well as holy. Especially when you can't hit 4-5 targets consistently with PoH, holy is better. Looking at garalon heroic proves that (Especially on 10man).

However disc for most of the encounters in this tier is ridiculously overpowered for a variety of reasons. Mana regen is very high, allowing disc to constantly spam high HPS spells when played properly. Almost all fights are very spikey giving disc plenty of opportunities to stack large absorb buffers and eat up a lot of the incoming damage during the spikes. A large number of heroic encounters also have huge damage buffs on the boss, which makes atonement really really OP (penance totalling up nearly a million on windlord hc is a bit ridiculous).

Despite these issues currently holy is a really really strong spec. Its just masked by the fact that disc is so stupidly OP, because of a few bad decisions by the devs and the design of the encounters.

If anyone is telling you that you should be disc or you are nerfing your raid for 25man, they are idiots. There are 4 maybe 5 encouters in the whole tier where being disc really makes a dramatic difference to your raid. For 10man there are a few more encounters where disc is beneficial, because atonement is strong on many progress fights atm and it can really help your raid beat enrage timers.

You can still see a number of holy priest creeping up in the top of the ranks and plenty of guilds beat all hc content without using a disc priest.

Come 5.2 atonement is buffed, while PoH and spirit shell is nerfed drastically for PoH, but especially for single target heals. So now disc is a niche spec. For those fights where atonement shines and which are generally low HPS, with long periods of low damage alternating with hard spikes, disc is now balanced at least for 10man.

Any fight where you have more or less constant damage, any fight where you want to cast PoH a lot, any fight which has high HPS, holy is going to beat disc consistently.

Atonement and eminence are big things for 10man. With big damage buffs on the boss atonement is not only strong for healing, it also adds much needed extra DPS.

I think on 10man disc is ok, except on high HPS or high aoe fights. If you have fights with long low damage and long high damage phases, disc is going to be extremely bad. A number of the PTR fights however are niche for disc, so disc can still do well, but for most them holy will be equal or better.

I don't know how these will translate on 25man, but my guess, is that unless some mechanics are one-shotting people no one will really bother playing disc.

So the answer to the original question is everything depends on what you are doing. If you are a 25man guild you better have a holy spec ready, because there is a high chance that most of the time you will be holy. For 10man, I dont think there is much to separate holy and disc, except on fights where atonement is really good.

The downside is that doing most of your healing with atonement makes the spec really boring. Ghostcrawler is an idiot as usual if he things these changes will encourage disc to use PWS more, what you can expect is that you will mostly spam atonement, then pop archangel and use spirit shell with PoH and then back to atonement. If there is an encounter, with slightly longer burst phases, you will want to be using BH and PoM, in addition to atonement.

I have the #2 world ranking for Holy Priests on the 10 man heroic Garalon fight you're talking about...

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...H/Holy_Priest/

I'm going to have to completely disagree with you about Holy being able to heal any fight equally as well as disc. I go Holy for all of two fights this tier, heroic Garalon and Tsulong (I could feasibly go Holy for heroic WotE too, but disc works better with our setup). If the fight doesn't have low raidwide damage where you can abuse Holy's mastery (or yellow chackra/renew/heal spam if that's your thing), Holy just doesn't do well. And I'm not comparing Holy with Disc when I say this, I'm comparing them to all specs in the game aside from Resto Druids (who sadly don't have the output to keep up roght now). It's not that Holy doesn't have throughput... They have great throughput. It's that they don't have SUSTAINABLE throughput over the course of fights that don't have low, constant raidwide damage.

[HPLathus]

I have the #2 world ranking for Holy Priests on the 10 man heroic Garalon fight you're talking about...

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...H/Holy_Priest/

I'm going to have to completely disagree with you about Holy being able to heal any fight equally as well as disc. I go Holy for all of two fights this tier, heroic Garalon and Tsulong (I could feasibly go Holy for heroic WotE too, but disc works better with our setup). If the fight doesn't have low raidwide damage where you can abuse Holy's mastery (or yellow chackra/renew/heal spam if that's your thing), Holy just doesn't do well. And I'm not comparing Holy with Disc when I say this, I'm comparing them to all specs in the game aside from Resto Druids (who sadly don't have the output to keep up roght now). It's not that Holy doesn't have throughput... They have great throughput. It's that they don't have SUSTAINABLE throughput over the course of fights that don't have low, constant raidwide damage.

Holy has the highest HPM out of any of the healers if they stack mastery actually.

[fixall]

Holy has the highest HPM out of any of the healers if they stack mastery actually.

I'm not disagreeing with you there. That's exactly what makes Holy so strong in the two fights (Heroic Garalon and WotE) that have constant, low raidwide damage. Unfortunately those are the only two fights of the tier that give Holy Mastery a chance to work it's magic. In any other fight most of the Echo healing goes to overheal.

[HPLathus]

They have great throughput. It's that they don't have SUSTAINABLE throughput over the course of fights that don't have low, constant raidwide damage

Not sure what you meant by that then.

[fixall]

Not sure what you meant by that then.

Really?

I don't feel like the concept is that hard... If the fight has low, constant (constant as in 100% of the fight) raidwide damage (ie heroic Garalon and WotE) then Holy does well. The reason being no healer in the game has the mana to just spam heals 100% of the time keeping the entire raid at 100% during those fights. So the end result is that Echo of Light from Holy's Mastery blankets the entire raid and very little of it goes to overhealing (my Echo only did 15% overheal on that Garalon log). On any fight other than the two I spoke of, the damage characteristics prevent this from being the case. Any fight with spike damage on the entire raid... the raid is healed up before Mastery has a chance to really work. Any spike damage on a couple particular targets and those targets are healed up before Mastery has a chance to work. Any spike damage on the tank and they are healed up before Mastery has a chance to work.

Holy Priests may have the strongest HPM but it's like you are completely ignoring the fact that this is ONLY the case when Mastery is working at it's full potential, which as anyone can tell (and show) you is RARELY the case. Try to think about how much of an throughput/hpm loss it is when the majority of the 30% Mastery HoT is getting sniped by the second healers direct heals.

[HPLathus]

Is there a reason the immediate response from priests on these forums is to be 100% douchebag?


If you are playing holy correctly, you shouldn't be trying to heal to 100%. You heal as close to 90% as possible and let your mastery do the rest/finish off with a CoH/spot heals. Thus removing as much overhealing from echo of light as possible.

If the fight has low, constant (constant as in 100% of the fight) raidwide damage (ie heroic Garalon and WotE) then Holy does well.

Yes, and any class has lower HPM if the fight doesn't have consistant damage. So why are you pointing this only at holy? It affects ALL healers.

Any fight with spike damage on the entire raid... the raid is healed up before Mastery has a chance to really work.

You aren't counting mastery procs between heals or any mastery that was ticking before the aoe damage hit.

Holy Priests may have the strongest HPM but it's like you are completely ignoring the fact that this is ONLY the case when Mastery is working at it's full potential, which as anyone can tell (and show) you is RARELY the case. Try to think about how much of an throughput/hpm loss it is when the majority of the 30% Mastery HoT is getting sniped by the second healers direct heals.

Just like any other healer, so why only point out holy priests?


I have yet to see a fight, where there is a huge AOE burst phase and 0 damage immediately following. Almost all fights have extra mechanics that are hitting single targets after an aoe phase to cause damage, thus having a good majority of your mastery still being effective.

[Blachshma]

Really?

I don't feel like the concept is that hard... If the fight has low, constant (constant as in 100% of the fight) raidwide damage (ie heroic Garalon and WotE) then Holy does well. The reason being no healer in the game has the mana to just spam heals 100% of the time keeping the entire raid at 100% during those fights. So the end result is that Echo of Light from Holy's Mastery blankets the entire raid and very little of it goes to overhealing (my Echo only did 15% overheal on that Garalon log). On any fight other than the two I spoke of, the damage characteristics prevent this from being the case. Any fight with spike damage on the entire raid... the raid is healed up before Mastery has a chance to really work. Any spike damage on a couple particular targets and those targets are healed up before Mastery has a chance to work. Any spike damage on the tank and they are healed up before Mastery has a chance to work.

Holy Priests may have the strongest HPM but it's like you are completely ignoring the fact that this is ONLY the case when Mastery is working at it's full potential, which as anyone can tell (and show) you is RARELY the case. Try to think about how much of an throughput/hpm loss it is when the majority of the 30% Mastery HoT is getting sniped by the second healers direct heals.

Great post, but wouldn't that make Grand Empress 3rd phase also extremely holy-friendly. The constant raid damage will allow echo to be effective and cds like Hymn and Lightwell should prove highly beneficial, wouldn't you agree? If we are talking holy vs. disc for this phase, I would say Hymn beats Barrier as well, but probably SS does the trick for disc.

[nobodysbaby]

Theres one thing Holy really does much better than Disc and its the reason I spec Holy sometimes (when we already have a Disc or two I will add) and that is smarthealing. Even if Disc are better at output, Holy shines the brightest when it comes to save those low hp from dying, especially if there also is a lot of movement involved.

Yeah, Holy might not be the nr1 at healing done but we sure heal "the right ppl at the right time" and that is quite valuable to. Holy complement Disc well. They are atm the big elephant while we clean up the mess with precision.

Lightspring, CoH, PoM and DI are doing just that in a nice way.

The flaw Holy have atm is the limiting Chakra, buggy Guardian Spirit and too low healing from Sanctuary and CoH could use a lil buff.

Its not always meters that matters the most, its getting the raid alive through an encounter and to do that best you need a little of everything, a mix of healers that is good at different things. This is what many dont see when looking at meters.

NOT saying Disc dont need a nerf, but my point is Holy definitly has uses.

[fixall]

Theres one thing Holy really does much better than Disc and its the reason I spec Holy sometimes (when we already have a Disc or two I will add) and that is smarthealing. Even if Disc are better at output, Holy shines the brightest when it comes to save those low hp from dying, especially if there also is a lot of movement involved.

Yeah, Holy might not be the nr1 at healing done but we sure heal "the right ppl at the right time" and that is quite valuable to. Holy complement Disc well. They are atm the big elephant while we clean up the mess with precision.

Lightspring, CoH, PoM and DI are doing just that in a nice way.

The flaw Holy have atm is the limiting Chakra, buggy Guardian Spirit and too low healing from Sanctuary and CoH could use a lil buff.

Its not always meters that matters the most, its getting the raid alive through an encounter and to do that best you need a little of everything, a mix of healers that is good at different things. This is what many dont see when looking at meters.

NOT saying Disc dont need a nerf, but my point is Holy definitly has uses.

I pretty much agree with everything you posted here. The positives you spoke of when it comes to Holy are some of the main reasons I enjoy the spec so much. My guild has just recently (as of tonight actually) converted to a 25 man guild and I am very much looking forward to recruiting a Disc Priest so I can go back to running Holy. With the current state of Holy it makes a lot more sense to me in 25 mans where you're not constituting 50% of the sustained healing output.

I think you're right when you say the meters aren't what matter most. But I will say if you delve deep enough into the logs (not just the hps) you can be blown away by what you can learn about you and your co-healer.


---------- Post added 2013-02-12 at 11:03 AM ----------

Is there a reason the immediate response from priests on these forums is to be 100% douchebag?

I'm sorry if I came off as a douche bag, that wasn't my intent. However, your posts are a little frustrating to me... You seem to take the contrarian side of most topics and while it's absolutely you prerogative as a human to hold any opinion you want... You (in my opinion) promote your ideas as if they were gospel while claiming everyone else is wrong, but at the same time, I've yet to see you post a log that supports your claims. I mean I showed you mine, show me yours? It wouldn't be such a big deal to me but a lot of raiders who are just breaking into heroic modes come here for help and after reading some of your posts, end up more confused then when they came. I'm glad you found a style of healing that you like and that works for you (Holy is by far my favorite spec too) but presenting your ideas as solid facts when all the logs show they are incorrect (and without you providing logs of your own to drive your points home) just doesn't leave you a lot of room to argue in my humble opinion. Now to answer your questions...

If you are playing holy correctly, you shouldn't be trying to heal to 100%. You heal as close to 90% as possible and let your mastery do the rest/finish off with a CoH/spot heals. Thus removing as much overhealing from echo of light as possible.

Yes as Holy you shouldn't be topping people off. You should be getting them close to ~85%-90% (depending on heal size) and letting your Mastery top them off. Sounds good in theory... If you're healing ALONE. In a raid setting you'll obviously have at least one healer in there with you. Are you going to expect them to hold off from healing anyone who is at about 90%? What about when there's a lull in the damage, do you expect the other healer not to top people off? How about the second healers smart heals, are you going to tell the smart heals not to heal people who have your Mastery HoT and are around 90%?

Yes, and any class has lower HPM if the fight doesn't have consistant damage. So why are you pointing this only at holy? It affects ALL healers.

I point this out because Holy SPECIFICALLY does well ONLY in fights that involve consistent, low raid-wide damage. The damage has to be low enough that the Holy Mastery is enough to even it out to the point that the other healer in your raid doesn't bother with it. This effectively pads your HPS as a Holy Priest on those fights (see my log). Yes other classes will have lower HPM when the raid damage isn't consistent but no other class takes as a big a hit to their HPM as Holy Priests because of the way their Mastery works (I'll explain what I am getting at with the Mastery below).

You aren't counting mastery procs between heals or any mastery that was ticking before the aoe damage hit.

Yes I am. Not sure what you're trying to argue here. The one to two ticks of Echo of Light that goes off between heals isn't very significant on those fights where the healers are basically playing "whack-a-mole" to top people off. It's a six second HoT so with a one to two second lag between heals you're still looking at 66% - 83% overheal for the duration of that HoT.

Just like any other healer, so why only point out holy priests?

See there you go presenting that as a fact when anyone with the ability to do a little research can see that it's false. Let's look at it this way. You're a Holy Priest in a ten man raid with one other healer. Someone in the raid stands in fire for a few seconds and takes 100k damage, you cast a Flash Heal on him restoring 75k of his health while leaving your mastery to do the rest. Your Mastery ticks once for 3,750 and then your healing partner tops off the person who stood in fire causing your next five ticks (18,750 effective healing) to turn into overhealing.

If you would have been a Holy Paladin in that situation your mastery would have placed a shield on the target that lasts 15 seconds. Where as a Holy Priest 83% of your mastery effect went to overhealing... The Paladin doesn't have to worry about the other healer who just topped off the person who stood in fire. If that person takes ANY damage within the next 15 seconds it will hit the Paladin's Mastery shield first resulting in very little to no overhealing (i.e. both excellent hps and hpm).

If you would have been a Mistweaver Monk your Mastery would have had a chance to proc a healing sphere that sits next to an injured raid member for an entire 60 seconds, giving them the option to walk through it and heal themselves anytime they take damage within that minute. How much of that is going to overheal?

If you would have been a Shaman your Mastery would have directly increased your initial heal based on how much life your target had lost. how much of that is going to overheal?

If you would have been a Druid your Mastery again would have directly increased your initial heal. Blizz decided to make the Druid Mastery initial heal bonus a base 10% (as opposed to 20%) so they could add a Mastery base effect of 10% to their HoTs as well. With the reliance Resto Druids have on HoTs over direct heals (and the current content style of damage) it's really not a surprise to me to see Druids at the very bottom of the totem pole this tier. Blizzard is giving them a flat 10% healing increase next patch to rectify this mistake.

I could make the arguement for a Disc Priest too, but I don't think anyone here is denying that the automatic Divine Aegis shields from PoH along with the Mastery scaling is extremely powerful.

I have yet to see a fight, where there is a huge AOE burst phase and 0 damage immediately following. Almost all fights have extra mechanics that are hitting single targets after an aoe phase to cause damage, thus having a good majority of your mastery still being effective.

I honestly don't know how to reply to this. I feel I explained exactly why Holy Priest Mastery IS NOT effective in those situations where there is some spike damage on a random target after burst raid damage. The other healer in your raid will most likely top them off before you Mastery gets more than two ticks in. I would also like to know what class you're healing with so as to cause every fight this tier to have constant damage throughout the entire fight. In every single heroic raid I've encountered so far (other than Garalon, WotE, and Tsulong normal) I've found plenty of breaks in the damage where I am able to pump out some dps.

Great post, but wouldn't that make Grand Empress 3rd phase also extremely holy-friendly. The constant raid damage will allow echo to be effective and cds like Hymn and Lightwell should prove highly beneficial, wouldn't you agree? If we are talking holy vs. disc for this phase, I would say Hymn beats Barrier as well, but probably SS does the trick for disc.

Thanks, it's actually one of my first posts here, lol. Unfortunately I can't answer that question about heroic Grand Empress as my guild is only 12/16 heroic and just got to her this week. With 5.2 releasing on the 26th of this month and us Server transferring tonight to convert to a 25 man guild... I don't see us downing her before the patch. /sigh.

I would definitely agree that Holy could be a powerful spec for the third phase of Grand Empress, I assume most Priests go Disc on that fight mainly (as you said) for the benefeit that Spirit Shell and the short one minute cooldown brings. I am also guessing that the added bonus that Power Word: Shield brings to the fight is pretty powerful. You may not be able to heal people in the Dissonance Field who have Cry of Terror but you can sure as heck toss a Power Word: Shield on them before they go in there and lol while they take no damage. I completely agree that Divine Hymn is a much more powerful CD than Power Word: Barrier for 10 man (Barrier is super powerful in 25 mans) in most cases. In fact, in a lot of ten man fights I notice Barrier just kind of taking up space on my bars, and it's not unheard of for me to have it off CD at the end of the fight.

[Blachshma]

fixall, very nice post again. Kudos for making your point very nicely indeed.

As for EoL, what you wrote is pretty much the same feeling I had for a long time. While a holy priest mastery is very powerful in theory, its just not effective enough in the long term due to the insane amounts of overhealing. In DS, mastery worked way better for holy, especially on heroic, where pretty much every boss had either phases of stacking and spamming heals due to constant damage (EoL was golden at this point), or fights like Spine HC when I would just go Serenity Chakra and get those debuffed people up quickly. I always thought a 6 seconds duration is way too long though, and if Blizzard would have done something with the overhealing (maybe, 50% of the amount going to overhealing goes to the priest's next healing spell) I would stack more mastery. As it is now, I'm stacking a lot more haste than I do mastery, despite most advice for holy priests. With haste I feel I have a lot more control over my overhealing.

[nobodysbaby]

Our mastery as holy would be better off if the hot was faster. Considering other classes mastery (especially paladins) very rarely goes unused I think it wouldnt be too OP to reduce EoL ticks by a second or two.