Ukraine

[Cybran]

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/poli...ll-336373.html

In a conversation leaked online and posted to YouTube on Feb. 4, voices closely resembling those of U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt and U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland discuss loosely the roles of Ukrainian opposition leaders and the United Nations, and frustration over inaction and indecision by the European Union in solving Ukraine’s political crisis.

The woman, who sounds like Nuland, can be heard on the recording saying “fuck the EU,” while the man, who sounds like Pyatt, refers to Vitali Klitschko as the “top dog” among opposition leaders but implies that Klitschko is too inexperienced to hold a top government post.

So the pro-Yanukovich camp has leaked a phone call between the US ambassador in Ukraine and Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland. The US going for regime change will really hurt the opposition and push more people to Russia. Not to mention that the EU that already has a cool relationship with the States will have to respond in kind.

This will be really interesting.

[Skroe]

What do you expect really? While EU member states are taken very seriously (of course) in US Foreign policy circles, the EU as a collective entity is not.

And we talked about this about 5 pages ago. Bringing Ukraine into the EU and NATO would be pretty much the strategic victory of the decade for the US and the West. We need to make that happen by pretty much any means necessary.

Somewhat embarrassing this was released due to the open frankness rather than the usual friendly bullshit diplomats use, but there will be no consequences. Russia knows we're playing for all the marbles. This is their attempt to divide and conquer as their position in Ukraine has gotten dramatically weaker in just the past week. The EU will fall into line because it's in their interests to. As much as we want Ukraine in our camp, it's even better for them.

[Cybran]

You still don't get it do you?

Even Europe is tired of the US foreign policy bullshit. This will have to lead to a response. "The US has no respect for a loyal partner and the sovereignty of our country" Gerhard Schroeder said this yesterday and he is not the only person fed up with this sort of bullshit.

http://pando.com/2014/02/04/the-firs...-no-one-cares/

He estimated that the CIA spent about a third of its budget bribing or funding foreign political parties and foreign politicians, including in allied countries like Italy. And that the NSA was a powerful tool in some of the most nefarious—and illegal—domestic surveillance programs.

The US lost it's war with the CIA and NSA over 40 years ago. In that time these organizations have caused regime changes, coups and helped fascists rise to power and commit genocides. How much longer do you think this could go on?

There needs to be a respons to these machinations. In the worst case this will discredit the opposition in Ukraine and cement Yanukovich in power which at this point seems like an option compared to become a US puppet state.

[Skroe]

You still don't get it do you?

Even Europe is tired of the US foreign policy bullshit. This will have to lead to a response. "The US has no respect for a loyal partner and the sovereignty of our country" Gerhard Schroeder said this yesterday and he is not the only person fed up with this sort of bullshit.

You mean Gehard Schroeder, my favorite European.

THIS Gerhard Schroder:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...russia.germany
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...120901755.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-330461.html
http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-572686.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...join-euro.html
http://www.thelocal.de/20120307/41189

The Gerhard Schroeder who also said this:

The most-recent questions surrounding the Schroeder-Putin courtship surfaced last week. Following energetic attempts by Putin to influence the elections in Ukraine -- including massive financial support and campaign appearances supporting government candidate Yanukovych as well as premature recognition of a Yanukovych victory despite clear indications of massive fraud -- Schroeder came to Putin's defense. "I am thoroughly convinced that the Russian president wants to transform Russia into a democracy and that he is doing so out of a deeply held conviction," he said. As if that weren't a gem of a quote, a few days earlier Schroeder had referred to Putin as "a flawless democrat."

Russian's man in Germany? The Former Chancellor who, once he lost reelection, went to go work for the Russian oil firm that he negotiated the deal with?

Gerhard Scroder, probably the single most corrupt and compromised European of the past twenty years. A former head of state not welcome in many countries because of his corruption. A man who has sticked close to his Russian masters since the day he left. And you want me to care, what that man thinks?

Are you for fucking real Cybran? You handed me the one European that if he had an unfortunate boating accident, you'd be hard pressed to find an American or European who would shed a tear.

Gerhard Schroeder is the reason NSA mass surveillance on EU leaders is right and proper by the way. After his 2002-2003 stunts, implicit trust has become "trust but verify". Till the end of our days, we can say "We need to spy on EU leaders because of people like Schroeder" and we will be right.

http://pando.com/2014/02/04/the-firs...-no-one-cares/


The US lost it's war with the CIA and NSA over 40 years ago. In that time these organizations have caused regime changes, coups and helped fascists rise to power and commit genocides. How much longer do you think this could go on?

Oh brother Cybran. "Lost it's war with the CIA and NSA"? Really. Who SAYS that shit. You're too good to be true sometimes.

So what wealthy western city do you live in again? You're the very picture of a western self loathing brat.

There needs to be a respons to these machinations. In the worst case this will discredit the opposition in Ukraine and cement Yanukovich in power which at this point seems like an option compared to become a US puppet state.

You are aware Foreign Policy is by definition all Machinations? That's why there won't be a response. How many EU foreign policy leaders have probably said "Fuck America" behind closed doors? Or hey, remember that time, in the good old days, when Jacque Chirac sent his emissary Dominique de Villipien around the world and tried to buy votes on the UN Security Council over Iraq by courting developing nations on the fence with deals?

You're hopelessly deluded. Utterly hopeless.

[Cybran]

You're hopelessly deluded. Utterly hopeless.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...edName=topNews

Glazyev, who was prominent in a Kremlin campaign last year that threatened economic sanctions against Ukraine if it took the EU deal, accused U.S. agents of giving "$20 million a week" for arms and other help to "the opposition and rebels" in Kiev.

"There is information that within the grounds of the American embassy, there is training for fighters, that they're arming them," Glazyev said. The U.S. embassy declined comment.

The Kremlin official suggested Yanukovich should use force if necessary to put an end to the protest movement that Glazyev called "an attempt at a coup d'etat, at the violent overthrow of authority" in which public buildings had been occupied.

You are naive if you think that the Russians won't use every last bit of this phone call to escalate the situation and cause a civil war if needed to stop the AA deal. The US is serving Ukraine to Putin on a silver plate with this latest stunt.

[Skroe]

You are naive if you think that the Russians won't use every last bit of this phone call to escalate the situation and cause a civil war if needed to stop the AA deal. The US is serving Ukraine to Putin on a silver plate with this latest stunt.

Oh no. I think they absolutely will milk it for all it's worth. Don't get me wrong. In fact, if US Strategy is worth a damn, I'd hope we were counting on it. Nothing will drive Ukraine into the US camp faster or more fiercely than the perception of external Russian interference. I also don't think the EU will do so much as shrug over this intercept. They want Ukraine in the West as much as anyone. They have more to lose by caring. But it is illustrative of the regard we hold the EU in.


Our record at foiling Russian ambitions have been pretty awesome as of late. They've thrown so much at Syria, and now they get to do it again in Ukraine. This is Russia's problem though. They can only do stunts like this. The US can do things like... I don't know, offer those hard to get and heavily prized student visas to the children of Eastern Ukrainian business men, in exchange for their support. Student visas are a powerful tool to get our way, believe it or not. But it's just one tool.

But this won't be decided in the next few months. It's going to take the decade. Ukraine needs to be pulled into NATO. That should be the end-point. We just need to do anything and everything to get there, no matter the cost. It's been the mount Everest of NATO expansion since 1994. Let's start scaling it.

[lockedout]

Oh no. I think they absolutely will milk it for all it's worth. Don't get me wrong. In fact, if US Strategy is worth a damn, I'd hope we were counting on it. Nothing will drive Ukraine into the US camp faster or more fiercely than the perception of external Russian interference. I also don't think the EU will do so much as shrug over this intercept. They want Ukraine in the West as much as anyone. They have more to lose by caring. But it is illustrative of the regard we hold the EU in.


Our record at foiling Russian ambitions have been pretty awesome as of late. They've thrown so much at Syria, and now they get to do it again in Ukraine. This is Russia's problem though. They can only do stunts like this. The US can do things like... I don't know, offer those hard to get and heavily prized student visas to the children of Eastern Ukrainian business men, in exchange for their support. Student visas are a powerful tool to get our way, believe it or not. But it's just one tool.

But this won't be decided in the next few months. It's going to take the decade. Ukraine needs to be pulled into NATO. That should be the end-point. We just need to do anything and everything to get there, no matter the cost. It's been the mount Everest of NATO expansion since 1994. Let's start scaling it.

NATO really you think that is the answer?
I am not disagreeing just wondering why you think that?

[Skroe]

NATO really you think that is the answer?
I am not disagreeing just wondering why you think that?

NATO is the answer on two levels.

As far as American-European relations go, NATO is more than just the glue. It's the laser wield, between the US and EU. US and European relations are schizophrenic. They have been for fifty years. They will be forever most likely. And that's completely fine. We'll cooperate while having quarrels. That's the name of the game. What matters isn't the day-to-day, month-to-month relations (i.e. over the NSA spying stuff), but the cross decade trends.

That is where NATO is the answer. NATO binds the US and Europe together. Europe has no independent defense policy that does not include NATO, and by extension the US, in it's composition. That effective doubles our country's international weight on security issues where Europe is involved. The two parties of the bloc will speak as one where matters of the alliance - which in the end are the most important matters of all - are concerned.

Europe of course, is deathly afraid about American abandonment at the moment, because we're moving about 60-65% of our military forces to the Pacific Rim to contain China, which is NOT a Europe problem and a place where NATO is NOT the answer or in any way involved. So when I say schizophrenic, this is what I mean: they get pissed over the NSA and things like that, but on the issues and strategic flashpoints around them that matter, we're so tightly bound that even the thought that we have other interests other places terrifies them.

NATO is profoundly unpopular among the European left for precisely this reason. They think that Europe should chart an independent / neutral foreign policy, with NATO. Mostly this is rooted in some amount of Anti-Americanism or resentment about aspects of American foreign policy. But it is not the policy of the countries involved, and those countries have seen so many different governments, its safe to conclude that anti-NATO sentiment is entirely fringe.

Through NATO, US power is magnified. That is where it matters with regards to Europe. Bringing Ukraine into NATO, long our goal, makes NATO geographically much larger and moves it deeper into Asia.

Secondly, NATO is the answer towards Russia / Ukraine insofar that Russia has been utterly terrified and outraged about the prospect of NATO enlargement since 1992, and Ukraine joining it would be THE strategic set back of the post-Soviet Era, and they know this. Russia joining NATO would be like, Mexico joining a Military alliance with Russia. It's that significant to them. It would cross some sort of line undoubtedly. But it would be worth it.

We all know what Russia is. The iron Curtain fell and Communism was rejected, but in many ways this extremely conservative (in the international, not the American sense), plutocratic Russia dominated by ex-KGB and ruled through abuse of law and technology is in many ways worse. It is not an existential threat, like the USSR was, by any stretch of the imagination. But we cannot globally maintain our position of international pre-eminience against a strong Russia and a strong China simultaneously, especially with Europe has mostly forgotten it's vast strength.

The good news is, this is the ideal time to strike a hard blow against Russia's strategic position globally. Putin is dominant, but he is as the nadir of his domestic strength. His return to power de-legitimatized his legacy, and like the far right in America, he is fostering political power predominantly among the old, rather than the young (his base is actually Russian mothers over 50 believe it or not). Libya made the US / Russia relationship antagonistic, because Russia didn't think the UK/France (backed by the US) would push for regime Change. But most notably, Syria has been immensely destructive to them. Russia's foreign service, a fraction of the size of the US foreigns service (which is too small already), is utterly consumed with keeping Assad in place. Without Syria, Russia has no port in the Mediterranean. And then there is ascendant China, who Russia views as a military competitor, that is making Russia very nervous about it's long term hold on the Russian Far East, to the point that Russia is building up cities there to further assert it's claim. Russia's new illegal intermediate range ballistic missile? It's real target is China, not Europe / America.

And then of course, there is Russia's horrible finances. Oil making up such a large share of government receipts and being "only" $100 a barrel when they expected $120 (and budgeted around $106 for break even) is becoming ruinous. American shale gas? Like Venezuela it's change the game for energy in the world. What keeps the Russian treasury up at night is the prospect of vast Polish shale making Europe energy independent by the middle of next decade, which it very well may do.

NATO is a weapon against Russia in the game for the world. Make no mistake about it. Ukraine joining NATO will deny Russia access to the Black Sea as well. Between that and Syria, that pushes Russia deep into Asia and forces them to rely on Arctic forces... forces easily contained by the US, UK, Canada and Norway, as it was during the cold war. That is why NATO is the answer here. If we can bring Ukraine into it, Russia as a country of geopolitical significance is over. By the time we're done with expansion, they'll be so preoccupied with growing Chinese power along their far eastern flank, they'll feel utterly surrounded by more enemies than their resources can muster.

A weak, boxed in Russia is good for America, Canada, good for Europe and good for the world. It will let us focus more singularly on China thereafter. Syria and Ukraine... they are two heads of the same coin - wrapping up the Cold War into a permanent solution for the final status of Russia, one where it's just another country on the map that's mostly harmless.

[Deleted]

[Cybran]

student visas

Cheap gas, a market for Ukrainian goods and a 15 billion dollar loan is what Russia has offered. The best you came up with is stedent Visas? What a joke.

[video=youtube;jW1WDbDX7wE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jW1WDbDX7wE[video]

Just look at her squirm. How can she even talk about "recording a private conversation" when her government records half the world?

[Deleted]

Just look at her squirm. How can she even talk about "recording a private conversation" when her government records half the world?

and her line about a "new low"... I swear she drinks the blood of babies before going to work in the morning...

- - - Updated - - -

A weak, boxed in Russia is good for America, Canada, good for Europe and good for the world. It will let us focus more singularly on China thereafter. Syria and Ukraine... they are two heads of the same coin - wrapping up the Cold War into a permanent solution for the final status of Russia, one where it's just another country on the map that's mostly harmless.

Little boy, you need to find out about the world outside your RTS influenced mind.

[Deleted]

Lol Sroesec, you are more of a joke than I imagined, but whatever ye, US is the best, they crush everything, freedom ,democracy, prosperity, damn even the Kingdom of Heaven cannot be matched with this just and happy paradise the US is. Yet they even couldnt defeat Vietnam (rofl), failed in Korea too, failing in Afghanistan,....

Public debt per person: 41 633 $ ____________________________________ Public debt per person: 1375 $
Public debt as % of GDP: 81.1% ____________________________________ Public debt as % of GDP: 8.1%

Guess which one is US and Russian, so much for your "prosperity", nothing more than a debt bubble.

Dont worry Ukraine will get rid of the bloodthirtsy trouble makers (hope KGB folks didnt forget stuff) and everything will be fine.

[zm3i]

Sroesec is either a brain-dead neoconish redneck or on heavy drugs.
The hypocrisy of the Americans is just jaw-dropping. They try to influence policies of a county in the middle of Europe 10.000kms from their soil and consider such a behavior to be OK. But when Russia is tryina' do something about its neighboring country's political chaos they fiercely rebuke it with: "Don't dabble in the Ukraine's internal business, filthy Russians, let' em make the right choice".
McCain is partying on Maidan stages but you gotta stay vigilant for the evil KGB who substitutes Berkut personnel day by day.
Sometimes i think that a time travel machine does really exist and they port the moronic russophoebes from the late 60s to do and write all this shit.
As for the clashes. It's obvious for any sane person that a bunch of Nazis backed by some Ukrainian oligarchs is trying to overthrow a corrupt but legit (democratically elected) government of Mr. Yanukovich. You gotta be a fool to support Yanukovich's policies but you gotta be a fucking scumbag to support his retarded enemies in their bloody endeavors.
The only solution is a new election in a year as it should be or right now if Yanukovich is weak enough a leader to resign when pressured.

P.S. Why do people like Sroesec always say America (Anglo-saxon world) = the whole world. The majority of the world's population live in the BRICS countries, Asia and South America. And all those people are neutral to America and its allies at best, with a big portion openly despising the so-called "land of the free" (countries like Bolivia, Venezuela, Cuba, Ecuador, Peru, Russia, Belarus, Iran, Pakistan, China). This was even depicted in an episode of the Simpsons when Liza attached the Canadian flag to her backpack not to be treated like shit while traveling abroad and Homer later proved her act to be well-thought-out.
For the aforementioned Americans these countries now are a bunch of barbarians, gooks and towel-heads but the time flows too fast and soon enough China will surpass The U.S. as the world's No. 1 economy and I hope Brazil and Russia will follow in 20 years (our lifetime btw).
The truth that the Anglo-Saxon world is the minority is what every American must realize before posting their neocon bullshit stories of American supremacy. I know it's pointless to post this on the forum over-swarmed by Americans, with some being too ignorant not to fathom but even to listen to an opposing opinion, but the truth is what it is whether you like it or not.

[Deleted]

Lol Sroesec, you are more of a joke than I imagined, but whatever ye, US is the best, they crush everything, freedom ,democracy, prosperity, damn even the Kingdom of Heaven cannot be matched with this just and happy paradise the US is. Yet they even couldnt defeat Vietnam (rofl), failed in Korea too, failing in Afghanistan,....

Public debt per person: 41 633 $ ____________________________________ Public debt per person: 1375 $
Public debt as % of GDP: 81.1% ____________________________________ Public debt as % of GDP: 8.1%

Guess which one is US and Russian, so much for your "prosperity", nothing more than a debt bubble.

Dont worry Ukraine will get rid of the bloodthirtsy trouble makers (hope KGB folks didnt forget stuff) and everything will be fine.

Nice, bring up statistics completely unrelated to this thread, bet you feel smart now.

- - - Updated - - -

Sroesec is either a brain-dead neoconish redneck or on heavy drugs.
The hypocrisy of the Americans is just jaw-dropping. They try to influence policies of a county in the middle of Europe 10.000kms from their soil and consider such a behavior to be OK. But when Russia is tryina' do something about its neighboring country's political chaos they fiercely rebuke it with: "Don't dabble in the Ukraine's internal business, filthy Russians, let' em make the right choice".
McCain is partying on Maidan stages but you gotta stay vigilant for the evil KGB who substitutes Berkut personnel day by day.
Sometimes i think that a time travel machine does really exist and they port the moronic russophoebes from the late 60s to do and write all this shit.
As for the clashes. It's obvious for any sane person that a bunch of Nazis backed by some Ukrainian oligarchs is trying to overthrow a corrupt but legit (democratically elected) government of Mr. Yanukovich. You gotta be a fool to support Yanukovich's policies but you gotta be a fucking scumbag to support his retarded enemies in their bloody endeavors.
The only solution is a new election in a year as it should be or right now if Yanukovich is weak enough a leader to resign when pressured.

P.S. Why do people like Sroesec always say America (Anglo-saxon world) = the whole world. The majority of the world's population live in the BRICS countries, Asia and South America. And all those people are neutral to America and its allies at best, with a big portion openly despising the so-called "land of the free" (countries like Bolivia, Venezuela, Cuba, Ecuador, Peru, Russia, Belarus, Iran, Pakistan, China). This was even depicted in an episode of the Simpsons when Liza attached the Canadian flag to her backpack not to be treated like shit while traveling abroad and Homer later proved her act to be well-thought-out.
For the aforementioned Americans these countries now are a bunch of barbarians, gooks and towel-heads but the time flows too fast and soon enough China will surpass The U.S. as the world's No. 1 economy and I hope Brazil and Russia will follow in 20 years (our lifetime btw).
The truth that the Anglo-Saxon world is the minority is what every American must realize before posting their neocon bullshit stories of American supremacy. I know it's pointless to post this on the forum over-swarmed by Americans, with some being too ignorant not to fathom but even to listen to an opposing opinion, but the truth is what it is whether you like it or not.

Nazi opposition, using The Simpsons as a reference for the real world, being a hypocrite by saying we should stop hacking on Russia but then start hacking on the USA etc.

Look, the US might not be the best but I prefer Obama over Putin, who threatens everyone around him, blackmails Ukraine, shove out propaganda in order to make western countries look bad, does military exercises on foreign soil without permission, treats his people like shit so that he can hold large spectacles like Sotji, denies people equal rights etc. Anything that weakens his government is a good thing.

[zm3i]

Look, the US might not be the best but I prefer Obama over Putin, who threatens everyone around him, blackmails Ukraine, shove out propaganda in order to make western countries look bad, does military exercises on foreign soil without permission, treats his people like shit so that he can hold large spectacles like Sotji, denies people equal rights etc. Anything that weakens his government is a good thing.

lol ur so ignorant it's not even funny, the name Sochi is all over the place, still u can't spell it correctly.
Obama is a joke and a fucking puppet (a black version of McCain), The U.S. doesn't do "military exercises on foreign soil" they simply wage war on foreign soil and kill innocent people in the process, do you see the difference, idiot? The rest is not even worth commentating.
Why a guy from Scandinavia needs to lick American boots so fiercely? The yanks will not spoon feed you if you get low on coins.

[Deleted]

lol ur so ignorant it's not even funny, the name Sochi is all over the place, still u can't spell it correctly.
Obama is a joke and a fucking puppet (a black version of McCain), The U.S. doesn't do "military exercises on foreign soil" they simply wage war on foreign soil and kill innocent people in the process, do you see the difference, idiot? The rest is not even worth commentating.
Why a guy from Scandinavia needs to lick American boots so fiercely? The yanks will not spoon feed you if you get low on coins.

Well, you can't deny that Putin threatens his neighbours, blackmails Ukraine, shove out propaganda in order to make western countries look bad (fuck EU comes to mind), does military exercises on foreign soil (they flew over Swedish soil), he does treat people like shit (all the workers in Sotji comes to mind), and he denies people equal rights (homosexuals come to mind). There's very clear documentation for all of the above, so if you don't like what I say too bad.

I don't lick American boots, as said in the very first sentence "Look, the US might not be the best", it's just you who automatically assumes it. There's a reason Scandinavians prefer the US over Russia, because at least the US doesn't come and does military exercises over our territory and constantly taunts us because we support equal rights.

But sure, go ahead and call me idiot because I want you to live in a country where you can live freely and without oppression for being who you are. I mean, unless you are a nationalist and loves Putin because fuck me he's bald and goes around topless every now and then.

[Deleted]

Sroesec is either a brain-dead neoconish redneck or on heavy drugs.
The hypocrisy of the Americans is just jaw-dropping. They try to influence policies of a county in the middle of Europe 10.000kms from their soil and consider such a behavior to be OK. But when Russia is tryina' do something about its neighboring country's political chaos they fiercely rebuke it with: "Don't dabble in the Ukraine's internal business, filthy Russians, let' em make the right choice".

Well I dont know, but you can take a swift look how things are run in Russia, it's nowhere compatible with Western standards. Ofc anyone sane would want to run away as far as posible from that kind of system, so USA is right to support Ukraine in this case. There's lots of things in Russia that are shitty compared to EU, the way infrastructure is handled and people's work ethic in general is really bad compared to EU.

[Wixwix]

NATO and EU, both equally shit.

and he denies people equal rights (homosexuals come to mind).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sikatjxesj...WhitePaper.pdf

Enjoy.

[Cybran]

I don't lick American boots

You know that Sweden has been spying on Russia for the NSA for years maybe even decades, so of course they are going to treat you like an enemy state when you work for their enemy. Of course they will simulate dropping nukes on your capitol since they know that you would be the first to jump in to help USA.

[Bakis]

You know that Sweden has been spying on Russia for the NSA for years maybe even decades, so of course they are going to treat you like an enemy state when you work for their enemy. Of course they will simulate dropping nukes on your capitol since they know that you would be the first to jump in to help USA.

Sweden spy on Russia for our own sake, if it benefits us to share or even get information we dont have need for and handing it over to US or others so be it. Russia is a notoriously braindead country in terms of leadership.
Heck look at Putin and his mongo squad of henchemen, still dreaming of the Grand Russia a la CCCP and doing everything short of war to make it happen.