Possibly no flying throughout entire xpac.

[urasim]

Flying still needs to be nerfed a bit, but it doesn't need to be removed entirely.

Why? Can you give me a compelling reason why it soooooo broken?

[Lumineus]

I'm happy you quoted me, rebecca, because I was actually thinking of you when I posted it, as someone who should be taking notes.



WoW lacks mounted combat because players dont want it, and because it doesnt fit the game well anyway. Apologies if you think this is a 'real problem', but, its not and Blizzard has made the right call to never seriously try to push the game too far in this direction.

It's the real problem because some bean counter thinks mounts are a problem with the game's combat, so instead of adding combat to mounts they're removing mounts from the game. It's like a Soviet solution. Instead of addressing grievances, kill dissidents. Problem solved... not really.

For the same reason, I very much dislike the "dismount mobs spawn and attack you while flying" idea. The fuck do these random mobs get off throwing bombs and spears and shit, and I can't just clobber them with my fifteen foot long sword and be on my merry way? For me, this is extremely immersion-breaking. They can't just add flying danger without adding flying combat. And they CBA to do that.

[quras]

Blizzard's plan isn't "remove it and see what happens", it's more like "remove it and see if we can get away with it".

Which untimatly is the same thing.

Remove it and see what happens.... does the player base leave, lose their minds, hate it, love it, can't deside, don't care, (or any other turn of events gamers could take).

Blizzard is removing flying for a limited time to see what happens. An experiment at gamers expense.

They're not interested in preserving flying because they have in no way in the past indicated that flying presented a problem and have designed a huge amount of content around flying even up through Mists. If they were motivated to find a way to allow flying to offset these minor and previously non-existent "issues" with flying then they would have started by tinkering with flying before removing it. (and no making no-fly patch islands isn't tinkering)

Well it's clear they have limited interest in preserving flying with how thye are moving forward. I don't think it will ever be removed (thanks God but only because it would hinder sells in the cash shop).

Flying isn't the problem. Lack of game design is. Everything that has been brought up for reasons to limit or remove flying could be solved with some interesting game design and flying be left in the game and at the same time give enough merit to ground riding. You can go through this very thread for multiple ideas on how.

but you are right, removing or limiting flying isn't considered tinkering. What blizzard is doing is a grand experiment on gamers reaction. I am hoping it bites them in the ass for their lack of vision or interest in better content. Removing something takes no creation or vision at all. Expanding on features however is a different matter.

This leaves the conclusion that for some reason (more than likely dev time or dev cost or both) they actually want to remove flying as long as the financial cost is not too high - which makes "remove it and see what happens" make a lot more sense from their perspective.

I can't see it as a better move. Knowing flying sets WOW apart from other MMO's, knowing blizzards love of money and their continued sell of flying mounts in the cash shop, no flying is more like an incentive for blizzard to do less work and charge more.

Makes me wonder now is this really an experiment of just how little they can get away with and just how much more thay can charge before players break?

Sure, do less and charge more is a nice business move and makes the bottom line look good but it's at the expense of game features that set you apart from others. You should be hyping those features at this point in the games life. Expanding on them and setting yourself apart from the plethora of other MMO's that not only get content out faster but charge less VS reverting back to some past nostalgic days that can never be relived or recaptured.

[Destruktion]

Great ideas have been spread out through this 345 page thread and all from people who are not paid to do so.

Even if they are extremely rough ideas, they are better than blizzards idea of, "Remove it and see what happens."

I've seen plenty of alternatives to removing flying completely, but suggestions for improving open-world content have been few and far between.

Why? Can you give me a compelling reason why it soooooo broken?

I didn't say it was broken, I said it was unbalanced.
Flying mounts are OP. They can go absolutely anywhere and at insane speeds. This is not conducive to open-world play because it allows for "helicopter questing" and similar behavior, and it allows for players to skip obstacles that weren't intended to be skipped in this way. Open-world content is completed very quickly, much more quickly than intended.

Because of this, there is a segment of players who feel forced to fly in order to remain competitive with everyone else. This is not good design. A better design would have ground mounts superior to flying mounts for some activities and flying mounts superior to ground mounts for some activities. That way, players have a choice in which method of travel to use without being at a distinct disadvantage.

[quras]

I've seen plenty of alternatives to removing flying completely, but suggestions for improving open-world content have been few and far between.

SNIP....

Then you haven't been reading this thread long enough. I bet you alone could come up with interesting ideas that would keep flying in game and still bring a reasonable level of balance for riding on the ground if you tried and bringing open-world content to a higher standard.

It's been all covered in this thread at multiple points on how to keep flying VS blizzards, lets just remove it and see what happens mentality.

[urasim]

I didn't say it was broken, I said it was unbalanced.
Flying mounts are OP. They can go absolutely anywhere and at insane speeds. This is not conducive to open-world play because it allows for "helicopter questing" and similar behavior, and it allows for players to skip obstacles that weren't intended to be skipped in this way. Open-world content is completed very quickly, much more quickly than intended.

Because of this, there is a segment of players who feel forced to fly in order to remain competitive with everyone else. This is not good design. A better design would have ground mounts superior to flying mounts for some activities and flying mounts superior to ground mounts for some activities. That way, players have a choice in which method of travel to use without being at a distinct disadvantage.

They are about as fast as flight paths. Are they "unbalanced" as well? You won't be doing quests at max level, so I don't understand why you complain about "helicopter questing"... Blizzard said dailies will be at a minimum, and most quests will be finished by the time you hit level cap. You can skip everything on a ground mount and a flight path. Open world has almost nothing in it at max level. No one is forced to fly...

It's almost as if you haven't read any of the previous pages. None of these arguments are good reasons to take out an extremely fun(IMO) and staple feature.

[Rankin]

Open-world content is completed very quickly, much more quickly than intended.

They could add more daily and weekly events. And they seem to be moving in that direction with the Garrison stuff where you can send your minions out to do your dirty work for you, but with fairly long timers on their missions.

[Destruktion]

Then you haven't been reading this thread long enough. I bet you alone could come up with interesting ideas that would keep flying in game and still bring a reasonable level of balance for riding on the ground if you tried and bringing open-world content to a higher standard.

It's been all covered in this thread at multiple points on how to keep flying VS blizzards, lets just remove it and see what happens mentality.

I've seen little suggested that actually addresses the problems of BOTH sides of the issue.

They are about as fast as flight paths. Are they "unbalanced" as well? You won't be doing quests at max level, so I don't understand why you complain about "helicopter questing"... Blizzard said dailies will be at a minimum, and most quests will be finished by the time you hit level cap. You can skip everything on a ground mount and a flight path. Open world has almost nothing in it at max level. No one is forced to fly...

I'm not going to explain the enormous difference between flight paths and flying mounts in terms of how they affect gameplay. It should be pretty fucking obvious.

Helicopter behavior in general is the problem. It's shitty gameplay.

It's almost as if you haven't read any of the previous pages. None of these arguments are good reasons to take out an extremely fun(IMO) and staple feature.

The arguments are fine, you're just unwilling to actually listen them or compromise or both. The former, most likely because if I haven't made it clear enough already I am not arguing for the complete removal of flight.

They could add more daily and weekly events. And they seem to be moving in that direction with the Garrison stuff where you can send your minions out to do your dirty work for you, but with fairly long timers on their missions.

Garrisons could potentially add a lot to gameplay, but we'll see how they work out. Sending minions out on missions that take a long time isn't exactly engrossing.

[urasim]

Helicopter behavior in general is the problem. It's shitty gameplay.

In your opinion. I'd like to know why it's so terrible. But, I highly doubt you can give me a good reason.

There is no need compromise because there isn't an issue. I can see the argument from your side, but it isn't a good argument to remove, or limit, such a beloved feature.

I'm not going to explain the enormous difference between flight paths and flying mounts in terms of how they affect gameplay.

Because you can't... They both serve as the same purpose. They are used to taxi a player to a location. One is more limited than the other. You can't do anything on flight paths or flying mounts other than look around. Flying mounts are about freedom, immersion, and enhanced exploration. If there was more to do in the world there would be less use for flying mounts because you will want stay grounded longer.

- - - Updated - - -

Garrisons could potentially add a lot to gameplay, but we'll see how they work out. Sending minions out on missions that take a long time isn't exactly engrossing.

Garrisons will add as much gameplay as the farm does. It's literally the same thing. Garrisons have more options than the farm, but it's just a menu system that you assign tasks to minions. It will be about as much fun as playing farmsville.

[quras]

I've seen little suggested that actually addresses the problems of BOTH sides of the issue.


SNIP...

then it's very clear you haven't been reading this thread for very long.

Hell, just your helicopter problem has been addressed multiple times with various ways to limit it and not just use of caves and buildings.

I'll recap a few examples.

Spiders/mobs in trees or towers that only aggro upwards with the ability to pull targets and dismount them. You cannot pull them from the ground unless you do so on your own as they only look upwards.

Quest mobs that can pull or dismount players flying with extended range, yet not enough range that if you want to simply fly past them and have no interest in them, you can do so.

Quest completion mobs/tokens or events that do not just stand or are placed in open world around. Certain things have to be done before they appear.

Those are just off the top of my head to hinder your helicopter problem.

There have been multiple solutions and ways to keep flying in game and balance it a little better with ground running. Too bad blizzard isn't as good at brainstorming as MMO-C posters.

[Destruktion]

In your opinion. I'd like to know why it's so terrible. But, I highly doubt you can give me a good reason.

There is no need compromise because there isn't an issue. I can see the argument from your side, but it isn't a good argument to remove, or limit, such a beloved feature.

I already gave you a good reason. It defeats the way Blizzard wishes to design open-world content. It increases the pacing of completion of open-world content to unacceptable levels. Being able to just fly to any point you want at insane speeds is not good for a game whose business model is based on longevity. If the game were all open-world if would be a REALLY big problem, but since most of end-game content is instanced it's not as much of a problem. It still needs to be corrected. Clearly Blizzard agrees, though they aren't going about it the right way.

Of course if you've already made up your mind I doubt any reason I give would be considered "good."

Because you can't... They both serve as the same purpose. They are used to taxi a player to a location. One is more limited than the other. You can't do anything on flight paths or flying mounts other than look around. Flying mounts are about freedom, immersion, and enhanced exploration. If there was more to do in the world there would be less use for flying mounts because you will want stay grounded longer.

I'm glad you can at least recognize there IS a difference, though you downplayed it to extremes to make your point.
Flying mounts can still be about all of those things AND be on par with ground mount travel.

But yeah, improving open-world content should definitely be right up there with balancing flying mounts.

then it's very clear you haven't been reading this thread for very long.

Hell, just your helicopter problem has been addressed multiple times with various ways to limit it and not just use of caves and buildings.

I'll recap a few examples.

Spiders/mobs in trees or towers that only aggro upwards with the ability to pull targets and dismount them. You cannot pull them from the ground unless you do so on your own as they only look upwards.

Quest mobs that can pull or dismount players flying with extended range, yet not enough range that if you want to simply fly past them and have no interest in them, you can do so.

Quest completion mobs/tokens or events that do not just stand or are placed in open world around. Certain things have to be done before they appear.

Those are just off the top of my head to hinder your helicopter problem.

There have been multiple solutions and ways to keep flying in game and balance it a little better with ground running. Too bad blizzard isn't as good at brainstorming as MMO-C posters.

Those are some good ideas. Obviously they got buried in the thread somewhere.

[-Superman-]

got buried in the thread somewhere.

The thread is a run-away train on a circular track. I'm sure a lot has been lost along the way. Breath. Time. Patience.

[wow2011]

This means flight's only advantage is flight itself. However, thanks to NPCs with spears, towers with turrets, and the occasional sky beast (at your level, auto scales), you would have to watch out for just as many things in the sky as you would on the ground. If you take enough damage, you are knocked from your mount and likely fall to your death. Aggro for sky NPCs would be the same distance as it is for ground, and speeds would be about the same.

Also, adding in Aerial combat. This is mostly for the PvP realms and PvPers on PvE realms (of which I am NOT a part of). Now, when flagged for combat, you can still mount up to run away, BUT, your attacker can chase you. With Aerial combat, you can win either by killing your opponent in the sky, or doing IMMENSE amounts of damage to their mount (mounts would have 1.25 times the HP of a standard, ungeared rider) and force them to fall to their death. Pets from pet classes would NOT be available in mounted combat.

This is how flying should be like imo. The current form of flying is really bland. But I don't know, players' response to 3D combat environment wasn't too good according to Blizzard. But I can still dream that we will eventually get aerial combat one day with mobs that acutally fly up and attack you.

Anyone else find it weird that no NPC has learned how to fly? Is it because players keep on farming them for gold so they are all broke and can't afford a flying license?

[urasim]

I already gave you a good reason. It defeats the way Blizzard wishes to design open-world content. It increases the pacing of completion of open-world content to unacceptable levels. Being able to just fly to any point you want at insane speeds is not good for a game whose business model is based on longevity. If the game were all open-world if would be a REALLY big problem, but since most of end-game content is instanced it's not as much of a problem. It still needs to be corrected. Clearly Blizzard agrees, though they aren't going about it the right way.

Of course if you've already made up your mind I doubt any reason I give would be considered "good."

It isn't "insane" speeds. Someone in this thread made a point that it was about as fast as driving a car on the freeway (65 miles per hour). Oh, man, that's so fast!

Why are they adding back into the game if it defeats the design of open world content? People will still level to 100 and complete all the content in a day or two, and having no flight will not stop them from doing so. The open world hasn't been a place where people hang out and do stuff since classic. It's the endgame things that entice people. Flight or no flight will not change that.

If there is nothing in the world, like there is now, then there is zero reason to be there, and removing the ability to fly, even if its only for one patch, is bad design and will not change anything anyway. The game will still have empty open world because nothing there is compelling to a max level character.

There has only been two reasons that are good. But, neither of those reasons were good enough to remove the key feature. If Blizzard turned around and said they were disabling battle grounds to encourage WPvP for just a single patch, it would cause an outrage just like this has for people who want flight. Would you blindly follow Blizzards decision? This gamble that they are taking is extremely risky.

I'm glad you can at least recognize there IS a difference, though you downplayed it to extremes to make your point.
Flying mounts can still be about all of those things AND be on par with ground mount travel.

But yeah, improving open-world content should definitely be right up there with balancing flying mounts.

I didn't downplay anything. That's exactly what flying mount does. You can't even tell me why flying needs to be on par with ground mounts... Improving open world would essentially "limit" flying mounts by default. There wouldn't be a need to "balance" them.

[Destruktion]

It isn't "insane" speeds. Someone in this thread made a point that it was about as fast as driving a car on the freeway (65 miles per hour). Oh, man, that's so fast!

I don't accept your analogy, so the point is moot.

Why are they adding back into the game if it defeats the design of open world content? People will still level to 100 and complete all the content in a day or two, and having no flight will not stop them from doing so. The open world hasn't been a place where people hang out and do stuff since classic. It's the endgame things that entice people. Flight or no flight will not change that.

Limiting flight will ameliorate that.

If there is nothing in the world, like there is now, then there is zero reason to be there, and removing the ability to fly, even if its only for one patch, is bad design and will not change anything anyway. The game will still have empty open world because nothing there is compelling to a max level character.

That's why the solution is two-pronged: develop more open-world content, and balance flying.

There has only been two reasons that are good. But, neither of those reasons were good enough to remove the key feature. If Blizzard turned around and said they were disabling battle grounds to encourage WPvP for just a single patch, it would cause an outrage just like this has for people who want flight. Would you blindly follow Blizzards decision? This gamble that they are taking is extremely risky.

Who are you even talking to? I am not talking about removing flight whatsoever, not even for current content only.

I didn't downplay anything. That's exactly what flying mount does. You can't even tell me why flying needs to be on par with ground mounts... Improving open world would essentially "limit" flying mounts by default. There wouldn't be a need to "balance" them.

You DID lol, you said "one is more limited than the other" which is an EXTREME downplay of the difference. Flight paths take you on a fixed route from A to B, and their purpose is to quickly move your character from one region to another; they otherwise do not affect gameplay at all. Flying mounts can allow you to literally go ANYWHERE, and affect gameplay directly.

Flying doesn't NEED to be on par with ground mounts, it would just be a better design if players had to choose whether to fly or travel on the ground depending on their situation. If ground mounts are kept for speed travel and flying mounts kept for getting to hard-to-reach areas, then that actually adds a layer of gameplay to exploring the open world, what was once a passive activity.

[Lumineus]

It isn't an analogy. Actually if one presumes running (no sprint) is around 6MPH then a Paladin/DK with Master Riding flies at less than 30MPH. There is nothing "insane" about this speed.

[Destruktion]

It isn't an analogy. Actually if one presumes running (no sprint) is around 6MPH then a Paladin/DK with Master Riding flies at less than 30MPH. There is nothing "insane" about this speed.

It's an analogy. You're asking me to think of running as a certain speed irl and flying as a certain speed irl etc. and trying to say that flying isn't so fast because it's not considered fast irl.

[Lumineus]

Because it isn't. There isn't an analogy because there's nothing analogous in the comparison, it is as direct as you can get. Now whether it "seems" fast because an entire continent is only seven miles across on Azeroth is another thing, but then, do you really want to spend twelve hours flying across Northrend?

[Destruktion]

Because it isn't. There isn't an analogy because there's nothing analogous in the comparison, it is as direct as you can get. Now whether it "seems" fast because an entire continent is only seven miles across on Azeroth is another thing, but then, do you really want to spend twelve hours flying across Northrend?

That's the whole issue here. It doesn't matter if the speeds in-game are exactly the same as the speeds irl, because travelling in-game and travelling irl aren't comparable.

[urasim]

Limiting flight will ameliorate that.

There is no way you know that for sure. Stop making shit up.

That's why the solution is two-pronged: develop more open-world content, and balance flying.

No, again, you don't know anything. Blizzard doesn't even know. That's why they said "see what happens".

Who are you even talking to? I am not talking about removing flight whatsoever, not even for current content only.

This thread is about the possibility of the removal of flight throughout the entire expansion. Maybe you should leave the thread if you can't understand that.

You DID lol, you said "one is more limited than the other" which is an EXTREME downplay of the difference. Flight paths take you on a fixed route from A to B, and their purpose is to quickly move your character from one region to another; they otherwise do not affect gameplay at all. Flying mounts can allow you to literally go ANYWHERE, and affect gameplay directly.

The limit of a flight path is that it takes you to a set destination. Flying mounts don't do anything more than fly you to places. The way you described how flight paths work is exactly the way flying mounts work. Flying mounts don't effect game-play whatsoever... They're ONLY used for travel.

You have YET to demonstrate how it effects game-play and why it should be "balanced". You demonize flying mounts but have yet to tell me why they're evil. Being fast is not a bad thing.

Flying doesn't NEED to be on par with ground mounts, it would just be a better design if players had to choose whether to fly or travel on the ground depending on their situation.

Then why would you say on par with ground mounts if you don't think they need to be on par?