Are rogues under performing right now?

[Marrilaife]

Shamans...yeah...enhancement is not exactly great but then again there are two other available specs...

Elemetal isn't that much better either, all it's good at is fights with burst aoe like Aluriel. Yea, you can always play resto but I doubt any dps player enjoys being pigeon holed into healer spec. It's the same as saying to a feral druid "maybe your dps spec is lacking but at least resto and guardian are OP", doesn't help him the slightest.

[Won7on]

But to be fair, assassination was quite powerful throughout nighthold progression at least.

Uh and pretty much #2 in EN and ToV behind Shadow Priests. There was a period in EN where Assassination and Sub were both in the top 3, in fact. You really can't complain about Rogue's strength this xpac overall.

[Danuel]

Why play as rogue when you have DH in DH expansion? They can do all rogue can do but better

[Won7on]

Lol no. That's one of those opinions that's just repeated by by terrible players so often that they've really started to believe it. DHs have pretty much never been ahead of Assassination Rogues on single target in this expansion. They're great when you need burst AoE, but even then you could argue Fury Warriors do everything DHs do, but better.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, people get way too upset when they can't pad their little hearts out on meaningless adds, as if being #1 overall on Skorpyron is somehow hugely important. While burst AoE is something that is useful sometimes, massive ST is something that's useful all the time. Even on Il'gynoth, possibly the worst fight that could ever be designed for Assassination Rogues, there was still 1 or 2 brought by nearly every group to nuke the living shit out of the Heart in the burn phase.

And let's not forget that every world first kill this expansion so far has featured 2-3 Assassination Rogues in the group, and Assassination is still the most played spec (of ALL 36 of them) in Mythic Nighthold.

But, to be fair, remember when DHs were near-required for Tichnodrius progression because of their nearly unparalleled ability to soak Seeker Swarms?

Oh wait, that was also Rogues.

[Cyanix]

This is my take on rogues this x-pac:

You just have to outplay everyone else because your theoretical damage per second is lower.
We dont sim for 1M+ like so many other classes. In order to be competitive we often have to take twice as many risks.

"We have great utility/ tools/ yadda"

Yeah we have cloak of shadows. That's the only tool i can think of that could allow us to grind some deeps when other classes have to back up. I'm thinking about Starboy's Fel nova or even Elisande Arcanetic rings if you're willing to chase her through p1 (and you should, otherwise you're juste dead weight).

Feint ? that would be a dps loss.

You dont need rogues on Tichondrius. Quality of life but not required. Tanks and hunters can soak as well.

Many raids go through Nihgthold Mythic without a single rogue in their roster.
If you're playing one, well either you're an exceptional player, or your raid leader doesn't know better.

[ymirsson]

This is my take on rogues this x-pac:

You just have to outplay everyone else because your theoretical damage per second is lower.
We dont sim for 1M+ like so many other classes. In order to be competitive we often have to take twice as many risks.

"We have great utility/ tools/ yadda"

Yeah we have cloak of shadows. That's the only tool i can think of that could allow us to grind some deeps when other classes have to back up. I'm thinking about Starboy's Fel nova or even Elisande Arcanetic rings if you're willing to chase her through p1 (and you should, otherwise you're juste dead weight).

Feint ? that would be a dps loss.

You dont need rogues on Tichondrius. Quality of life but not required. Tanks and hunters can soak as well.

Many raids go through Nihgthold Mythic without a single rogue in their roster.
If you're playing one, well either you're an exceptional player, or your raid leader doesn't know better.

MAyn raids go through NH with one or two rogues, what is your argument?
And feinting through stuff can be a DPS increase, depends on the situation.

[Mafic]

Demon Hunters have surpassed Rogues in the ability to cheat mechanics and soak damage for PVE while having superior cleave. The nerf to Rogues Feint, Elusiveness and Cheat Death hurt Rogues a lot.

For PVP, Rogues play with perma res sickness due to template taking down agility and 30% slows means that most new Rogue players give up on the class quickly for PVP.

Good news is that Rogues still deliver DPS for PVE. Other than CloS, Rogues are hurting when it comes to uniqueness compared to other classes...

Pruning hit the Rogues hardest due to loss of Prep, Smokebomb, Shiv (70% slow).

[elfporn]

Demon Hunters have surpassed Rogues in the ability to cheat mechanics and soak damage for PVE while having superior cleave. The nerf to Rogues Feint, Elusiveness and Cheat Death hurt Rogues a lot.

For PVP, Rogues play with perma res sickness due to template taking down agility and 30% slows means that most new Rogue players give up on the class quickly for PVP.

Good news is that Rogues still deliver DPS for PVE. Other than CloS, Rogues are hurting when it comes to uniqueness compared to other classes...

Pruning hit the Rogues hardest due to loss of Prep, Smokebomb, Shiv (70% slow).

You must have horrible experiences compared to me - demonhunters tend to be super super squishy vs myself. Their survivability doesn't compare. And our
further potential survivability via legendaries is even more ridiculous.

And in pvp? i get gang banged, but generally can outlast and kill almost anything, even tanks. I spent 5 minutes annoying the shit out of a bear tank that just couldn't kill me the other day. i'd drop to 1% and heal to 50% constantly. Had to be so frustrating for him

But yea, ymmv.

[Deleted]

I'd say we are definitely not in the amazing place when it comes to m+

[Kalador]

I'd say we are definitely not in the amazing place when it comes to m+

If you have Shoulder/Ring Outlaw is just amazing in M+...

[Mafic]

You must have horrible experiences compared to me - demonhunters tend to be super super squishy vs myself. Their survivability doesn't compare. And our
further potential survivability via legendaries is even more ridiculous.

And in pvp? i get gang banged, but generally can outlast and kill almost anything, even tanks. I spent 5 minutes annoying the shit out of a bear tank that just couldn't kill me the other day. i'd drop to 1% and heal to 50% constantly. Had to be so frustrating for him

But yea, ymmv.

My concern is more from PVE because Rogues Feint and Cheat Death shouldn't have been nerfed and Smoke Bomb should have not been pruned.

[Deleted]

Assa rogue is one of, if not the, best spec in Nighthold, and with TOS being more single target focused than NH has been I don't see any reason that rogue won't continue to be strong, especially with the buffs to Sub that, from what I hear, will put sub firmly in the top 3 ST specs in the game.

And no I'm not basing this on some pointless metric like Warcraftlogs, since warcraftlogs only shows you raw throughput (there's a lot of opportunities to pad and AOE to increase your overall DPS on meaningless things, which hurts pure ST specs like Assa), I'm talking about assa rogues' excellent ST damage coupled with their incredibly strong utility. Both Tichondrius and Gul'dan have mechanics that require soaking and for both of those fights, Assa is undisputedly the best class to do it with because of cloak and feint. I'm sure there are other mechanics that rogues make a joke of that I'm forgetting because my guild wasn't lucky enough to have 2-3 rogues in our roster.

My concern is more from PVE because Rogues Feint and Cheat Death shouldn't have been nerfed and Smoke Bomb should have not been pruned.

Feint and Cheat Death should absolutely be nerfed.

[elfporn]

My concern is more from PVE because Rogues Feint and Cheat Death shouldn't have been nerfed and Smoke Bomb should have not been pruned.

i was referring to demonhunters as compared in pve survivability and utility.

Objectively, feint is overpowered af. no cooldown, 50% dmg reduction vs aoe is un-matched in the game outside of tanks. A cost increase is a small price to pay for it to not be cut entirely. Though of course, no nerf would have been better.

All cheat death-type effects were nerfed to reduce "cheesing" things. Which of course meant nothing at all, we just find other ways to do it. And have to go forward with a nerfed ability. Unfortunate, but they seem to have to do it wrong to learn to do it right.

[Cyanix]

I'm not basing this on some pointless metric like Warcraftlogs

What are you basing your arguments upon, then ?

Both Tichondrius and Gul'dan have mechanics that require soaking and for both of those fights, Assa is undisputedly the best class to do it with because of cloak and feint.

You do realize that neither feint nor cloak will make a significant difference on Gul'dan, right ?

Feint and Cheat Death should absolutely be nerfed.

'k...

Rogues dont spec into Cheat Death on those fights, but whatever.

[shaunika123]

don't feed the troll. He's admitted several times that he doesnt play anymore and if i recall, he's not played legion....


Rogue is fine, if you're losing to your competition **in every fight**, then find out why. Rogues may slide behind on some fights for various reasons, butt overall are easily top 5 (out of how many dps specs?)

We are not 100% top dps on every fight, but definitely the best focused ST with frost dk and afflock(and i usually beat ours), with ridiculous survival and utility.

you forgot frost mage btw
frost mages just roll over everything in ST atm

[Won7on]

You do realize that neither feint nor cloak will make a significant difference on Gul'dan, right ?

'k...

Rogues dont spec into Cheat Death on those fights, but whatever.

What? Have you done Gul'dan? Or are you guessing from a 3/10M viewpoint? Feint reduces Well of Souls damage AND the DoT damage (yes, it does, even without Elusiveness, I've confirmed this). And then you have Cloak on a 1:17 CD, which is also absurd. Rogues are pretty much the best soul soakers.

[Todesbote]

You do realize that neither feint nor cloak will make a significant difference on Gul'dan, right ?

Cloak is handy when you are soaking souls and get the flame debuff. You can simply stand in one place, cloak and not spread around the flames while cloaking you are also immune to the souls dot (9stacks) allowing your healers some breathing room when they have to move. It's really valuable there. Also Leeching Poison is very very good on Gul'dan for soaking the souls. The new Crimson Vial (Assa) is also perfect for Harvests - pop it when his cast is about to begin and enjoy a huge hot + damage reduction (new trait) during those harvests and during storms where your healers have to move.

Out toolkit is strong. Not saying it's OP and needs to be nerfed but it is the reason why we are used to handle soaking/utility tanking mechanics often.

That said we currently are (at least Assassination is) in a state where in our role as DPS we are only really effective in single target scenarios. Meanwhile other classes that do superior single target DPS (Frost Mage, Affliction Warlock) or do at least very competitive damage (Havoc DH, BM Hunter, Arms Warrior) also destroy in multiple other scenarios. Frost Mage is a monster in 2-target cleave (think Dragons in EN type situations). Havoc, BM and Warriors are insane for burst AoE while also competing with us on ST.

There is no reason to be upset as long as our ST-damage is at least competitive our strong toolkit will always be a reason to bring us. However we should also be able to compete with other classes in burst AoE or cleave situations. That's why many people are asking to give Assa rogues control over Poison Bomb rather than making it pure RNG. Nerf it's damage by ~50% - make it a cooldown with 3 charges like Shadow Dance - that would increase the skill cap and make us way more viable in AoE/Cleave/M+ situations.

[Cyanix]

What? Have you done Gul'dan? Or are you guessing from a 3/10M viewpoint? Feint reduces Well of Souls damage AND the DoT damage (yes, it does, even without Elusiveness, I've confirmed this). And then you have Cloak on a 1:17 CD, which is also absurd. Rogues are pretty much the best soul soakers.

Yeah my guild is currently on Gul'dan and im specced into leeching poison, thanks for patronizing.

There's no need to get upset because you're undergeared considering your progress. So am I.

There's also no need to try and justify rogue presence in mythic raids. Many guilds have killed Gul'dan without a single rogue. Should be a hint that rogues ain't the jewels some people here love to boast about.

Not debating about the fact that rogues are good soakers. They are, but they're not required (do i shave to spell this again ?) like you would require warriors or death knights or even ret pals for cleave duty on this fight.

Same goes for Tichondrius. Two tanks and hunters could soak the seeker swarm while provididing more deeps than rogues could, especially on adds.

- - - Updated - - -

Cloak is handy when you are soaking souls and get the flame debuff. You can simply stand in one place, cloak and not spread around the flames while cloaking you are also immune to the souls dot (9stacks) allowing your healers some breathing room when they have to move. It's really valuable there. Also Leeching Poison is very very good on Gul'dan for soaking the souls. The new Crimson Vial (Assa) is also perfect for Harvests - pop it when his cast is about to begin and enjoy a huge hot + damage reduction (new trait) during those harvests and during storms where your healers have to move.

Out toolkit is strong. Not saying it's OP and needs to be nerfed but it is the reason why we are used to handle soaking/utility tanking mechanics often.

That said we currently are (at least Assassination is) in a state where in our role as DPS we are only really effective in single target scenarios. Meanwhile other classes that do superior single target DPS (Frost Mage, Affliction Warlock) or do at least very competitive damage (Havoc DH, BM Hunter, Arms Warrior) also destroy in multiple other scenarios. Frost Mage is a monster in 2-target cleave (think Dragons in EN type situations). Havoc, BM and Warriors are insane for burst AoE while also competing with us on ST.

There is no reason to be upset as long as our ST-damage is at least competitive our strong toolkit will always be a reason to bring us. However we should also be able to compete with other classes in burst AoE or cleave situations. That's why many people are asking to give Assa rogues control over Poison Bomb rather than making it pure RNG. Nerf it's damage by ~50% - make it a cooldown with 3 charges like Shadow Dance - that would increase the skill cap and make us way more viable in AoE/Cleave/M+ situations.

Thank you, that was a much more reasonable answer.

I get tired of the "rogues are the best at this, you need rogues yadda" nonsense.
If rogues were that good you'd probably see them more often in raids. They're currently one of the least played class, just above monks and shamans I think.

[Toogoodman]

From my viewpoint, i do 1M+ or very close to 1M on every single fight in NH, also i tend to do close to 1M+ as AP in M+ (poison swapping for trash). With the recent buffs to Assassination on the PTR, its also looking like were going to be pretty decent at AoE, so im pretty excited.

We also have a ton of utility, thinking we don't is ignorant. I do a majority of the mechanics on fights (Soak on Tich/Guldan, Kick and soaking on Helya etc...). The problem with NH was already explained, the amount of padding one can do is pretty stupid, and thats what fucked Assassination big time, when i see myself in the middle of the pack or towards the bottom, when i switch to damage done to bosses, im usually #1 or 2 with the locks.

On the topic of rogue being one of the least played classes, yeah that might be true, but a lot of rogues swapped to DK in WotLK, and then a lot of them swapped to Monk in MoP, and finally a large portion swapped to DH in Legion, since every new god damn class has been a melee DPS.

For ToS, ill be running Toxic Blade most likely, so feel free to check my logs since we dont make them private. ToS is also supposed to be very single target oriented, so yay for rogues.

[Marrilaife]

I get tired of the "rogues are the best at this, you need rogues yadda" nonsense.
If rogues were that good you'd probably see them more often in raids. They're currently one of the least played class, just above monks and shamans I think.

Even if rogues are "best" at soaking doesn't mean you can't do it with a less suited class nowadays, you just need to heal more (like Gul'dan souls soaking or the disease on Tich after seeker swarm). Obviously being able to keep damage income lower through feint etc. helped when healing requirements were way tighter, people had less gear or fights were under-healed. So it was more of an advantage the earlier you progressed on these bosses.

But I don't get this complaint "rogues are one of the least played classes" are you comparing to other melee or to classes as a whole? I just checked number of parses from mythic Star Augur, Elisande and Gul'dan (so the end bosses), and the only melee significantly more represented than rogues are DHs, for obvious reasons. Not only are they the hero class of the expansion so the applications from DHs flow left and right, but they're also OP for m+, so people like to play them.

Also rogues are a 1-role class, if you see more druids and paladins in raids but they're healers and tanks that doesn't mean anything for rogue representation vs. other melee. If you are a feral or boomkin or a ret pala it means jack squat for you that the class is represented because guardian and holy are strong as hell.

Rogues were never super popular class in general populace (not talking about raiding but the whole playerbase), since WOTLK when I follow MMO-champ charts it's usually same classes with high representation (Hunter, Druid, Paladin, DK), and several classes with low representation (Shaman, Priest, Rogue, Warlock, Monk joined the club in MOP, it varied from expansion to expansion but things like DS Rogue daggers were added exactly because Rogue representation was low so it was kinda Blizzard's way of telling people to play Rogues more).

In raiding rosters for a long long time there was this problem you always had too many melees and too few ranged, NH started changing it a bit, let's see how it goes forward, but obviously classes like Mage & Warlock will have inflated representation in raids because there are only so few ranged classes to fill the slots and so many slots that had to be filled with required quota of ranged.

With DHs joining already crowded melee club Blizzard has to rethink the raid design (let's see how TOS fares) because for example in HFC it wasn't uncommon to see 3 of the same ranged class and 0 of some melee class, because like half the fights were "you need to kill adds asap and they spawn at range" so you always needed ranged to nuke them.