Ahead of the Curve: Molten Core?

[MMKing]

Aaand lies confirmed. It wasn't possible to kill Nefarian without Onyxia cloak in vanilla. So I call bullshit on your whole story. Maybe next time do your research before "story time".

The smaller dragons Ebonroc, Flamegor and Firemaw apply the debuff in a frontal cone. Requiring only the tank to have the cloak equipped for those fights. Nefarian however applies the debuff in an aoe, which ignores line of sight. Though there exist a known bug which allows his throne to block the shadow flame damage completely.

As nefarian only cast the spell once. It's possible for the Alliance, to do it with a single cloak on their main tank. As their paladins can use divine shield to remove the debuff. It should even be possible to do it with no cloaks at all, provided you stack enough paladins to heal through the debuff which deals 17500-22500 damage over 10 seconds.

[Daffan]

You needed to run a lot of ZG's (remember bosses didnt drop that much loot back in the days) to gear 40+ people, now for MC it wasnt realy a problem but with ZG+MC gear BWL realy wasnt that easy, on the top of my head Vaelastrazs and Flamegor where a real cockblock for us back when we did BWL eventho we had run MC tons of times, as for Onyxia she has never been hard.

Hahahahahaha

No. People can do MC so easily with pre-bis raid gear, which is easy to farm very quickly.

[Micronetic]

So first the Classic peeps are saying to us who play WoW right now "retailers" but on the other hand they want all the stuff which didn't exist back then? You wanted the classic feels and you should get them, without any extra stuff!

[Jester Joe]

You're a troll right? Anyone know if he's a troll? I think he's a troll.

Achievements are NOT fun and doesn't give most people goals in the game unless they're mouth-breathing basement dwellers. Back in the day if you wanted to prove to someone you had ran a raid, you had them inspect your gear to show you had gear from that place. Not only did that help people see that indeed you had ran it but showed you were probably geared enough to actually help the raid down bosses. Now people pay gold or real money to get achievements so they can link to "prove" they are good players but when you get them to something & find out they are complete idiots, you've wasted your time, wasted the raids time, and now you're locked to a raid that you won't be completing simply because you're "good" and bought your achievement.

Achievements are fun. The issue is you're thinking of AotC/Cutting Edge, and not the rest of the achievements that exist that encourage either perfect execution (Do a Barrel Roll!, any of the Ready for Raiding achievements, etc), or just interesting ways to fight the boss instead (Bucket List ), and never forget the silly ones like And it's good.

Granted, these are things that were designed with the achievement system in place. Vanilla doesn't have much of a need for that since it wasn't designed with them in mind, achievements would literally only be used as records.

[Lochton]

I've heard talk of molten core and blacwing lair or maybe onixia becoming easier once you have access to ZG gear. So I'm thinking if they release the patches in order and ZG isn't out as soon as classic releases.. they should also add an ahead of the curve molten core achievement for completing the raid before ZG comes out.

Sorry, no achievements. Carry on.

[Deleted]

Well achievements are fun actually it's something to do and gives you goals to set in game.. also gives a feeling of progress to your account and long term rewards.

It gives you a false sense of progression. I enjoyed a couple achievements, but those achievements basically altered an entire raid boss fight to make it twice or even worse in terms of difficulty.

But I dare say that 99% of all the achievements are live to feed people who can't for the life of them figure out how to have fun without a game telling them to.

[mhdoe]

No achievements in vanilla so no. And if they add them then it is not vanilla.

[Vestig3]

Hahahahahaha

No. People can do MC so easily with pre-bis raid gear, which is easy to farm very quickly.

You could do MC with dungeon gear lol i had the valor set when i started in MC.

[Forogil]

Did achievements exist in Vanilla/Classic?

I'm confident that this is a rhetoric question - and you know the answer is no.

However, since a few years back achievements are account-wide and some unattainable ones from Classic (and later) are grouped under Legacy - like original Onyxia, UBRS, and ZG. (They don't give points.)

The account-wide makes it more interesting:

What about players that complete that in the new Classic version; will they get credit automatically for the Legacy-achievements - on their account?
What if they transfer their characters to BFA-servers?

Do you think that someone at Blizzard has thought about this - and the similar issue for transmog?

[callipygoustp]

I'm confident that this is a rhetoric question - and you know the answer is no.

Good man. Rhetorical it was.

[-Konst-]

You seem to make this post on an assumption you had from playing back in the days (if you did) This is how the raids will be progressed through if the raids will have the same difficulty as they did back in the days.

- Mc will be cleared the first raid evening (if you have water to spawn Raggy, there is a big chance that even he will fall the first raid night)
- Onyxia will be easily downed, no struggle what so ever.
- BWL will be slightly more difficult because of the two starter bosses. The first needs some cordination, the second needs damage. Might not be downed by guilds the first week they start to raid, but the first should be done within two weeks.
- ZG will be a breeze, no problem at all, much like MC.
I can go on with the rest of the raids (AQ and Naxx)

They should not add any achievements. The system wasn't there in vanilla. People (like you) need to stop asking for features that can change the game in a negative way. Always ask your self before wanting a feature "How will this impact the game" and try to visualize it being implemented and how you will act upon it.

Achivements will make people want to do specific events. Dialog where people ask "Hey can you help me with this, I need it for my achivement" is not a wanted dialog by vanilla veterans. Achivement hunting should not be a part of the vanilla experience because you'll have other things to fill your time with. More important things like farming. (You might think here "So what? I want them, I also should have my voice heared." - No, Vanilla / classic is brought to blizzards attention from dedicated veteran players who want to experience classic wow once again. It will not be released with retail players in mind. I am not saying that retail players are not welcome, because they sure are, atleast from my perspective. But wanting modern features is not what vanilla is about)

I am not oppose to slight changes, but it needs to be thoroughly examned if it is actually an improvement to the game, and not only based on people wanting it. It needs to be clear how it will improve or take away from the game.

Closing - Stop asking for features without thinking about its impact.

- - - Updated - - -

Achievements are an easy way to ensure that the people you're recruiting aren't lying that they cleared BWL. There is no reason not to implement them.

Stop being a stubborn purist. Do you want C'thun to be bugged at launch too?

You are even stating the issue here your self. Time after time I see people use the words "easy / easier" to justify a change, and its so laughable because you completely miss the point of vanilla. Vanilla is not suppose to be EASY!. We don't want easy, we dont want quality of life. You had to deal with such people, however there weren't many of them because the server size was smaller and what you did on the server actually gave an inprint on your name.

If you were an asshole, people knew. If you were a guild jumper, people knew. If you got kicked by a guild, people knew. Its a completely different environment with social consequences to your character.

What you and so many other people needs to understand and even embrace is that easy is not worth anything in vanilla. The concept does not exist. I am not oppose to slight changes to the game, but these changes needs to be thoroughly examned and needs to be clear points wheither they will improve or take away from the game.

Blizzard is not catering to retail players when making vanilla. They are catering to the veterans. You sure are welcome to join, but don't even suggest easy. That goes against the whole philosophy of vanilla.

[pateuvasiliu]

You seem to make this post on an assumption you had from playing back in the days (if you did) This is how the raids will be progressed through if the raids will have the same difficulty as they did back in the days.

- Mc will be cleared the first raid evening (if you have water to spawn Raggy, there is a big chance that even he will fall the first raid night)
- Onyxia will be easily downed, no struggle what so ever.
- BWL will be slightly more difficult because of the two starter bosses. The first needs some cordination, the second needs damage. Might not be downed by guilds the first week they start to raid, but the first should be done within two weeks.
- ZG will be a breeze, no problem at all, much like MC.
I can go on with the rest of the raids (AQ and Naxx)

They should not add any achievements. The system wasn't there in vanilla. People (like you) need to stop asking for features that can change the game in a negative way. Always ask your self before wanting a feature "How will this impact the game" and try to visualize it being implemented and how you will act upon it.

Achivements will make people want to do specific events. Dialog where people ask "Hey can you help me with this, I need it for my achivement" is not a wanted dialog by vanilla veterans. Achivement hunting should not be a part of the vanilla experience because you'll have other things to fill your time with. More important things like farming. (You might think here "So what? I want them, I also should have my voice heared." - No, Vanilla / classic is brought to blizzards attention from dedicated veteran players who want to experience classic wow once again. It will not be released with retail players in mind. I am not saying that retail players are not welcome, because they sure are, atleast from my perspective. But wanting modern features is not what vanilla is about)

I am not oppose to slight changes, but it needs to be thoroughly examned if it is actually an improvement to the game, and not only based on people wanting it. It needs to be clear how it will improve or take away from the game.

Closing - Stop asking for features without thinking about its impact.

- - - Updated - - -



You are even stating the issue here your self. Time after time I see people use the words "easy / easier" to justify a change, and its so laughable because you completely miss the point of vanilla. Vanilla is not suppose to be EASY!. We don't want easy, we dont want quality of life. You had to deal with such people, however there weren't many of them because the server size was smaller and what you did on the server actually gave an inprint on your name.

If you were an asshole, people knew. If you were a guild jumper, people knew. If you got kicked by a guild, people knew. Its a completely different environment with social consequences to your character.

What you and so many other people needs to understand and even embrace is that easy is not worth anything in vanilla. The concept does not exist. I am not oppose to slight changes to the game, but these changes needs to be thoroughly examned and needs to be clear points wheither they will improve or take away from the game.

Blizzard is not catering to retail players when making vanilla. They are catering to the veterans. You sure are welcome to join, but don't even suggest easy. That goes against the whole philosophy of vanilla.

As someone that has BWL on a roughly 1 hour-1hr 15 minute clear time ( could be much shorter but we don't skip trash because we want trash loot ) I can definitely tell you that Vanilla is easy.

And spare me the veteran bullshit, most people didn't kill Nefarian. Hell most people probably didn't even kill Ragnaros and Molten Core is a giant loot pinata.

The only hard part in raids is learning some simple mechanics and getting 40 men on the same page.

If you were an asshole, people knew. If you were a guild jumper, people knew. If you got kicked by a guild, people knew. Its a completely different environment with social consequences to your character.

What you and so many other people needs to understand and even embrace is that easy is not worth anything in vanilla. The concept does not exist. I am not oppose to slight changes to the game, but these changes needs to be thoroughly examned and needs to be clear points wheither they will improve or take away from the game.

Blizzard is not catering to retail players when making vanilla. They are catering to the veterans. You sure are welcome to join, but don't even suggest easy. That goes against the whole philosophy of vanilla.

I probably achieved more in Vanilla than you have so spare me the nostalgia roadtrip. I know very well how a community with no name changes or realm transfers works.

Achievements will not change anything you said. They're just a degree that you can use to verify's someone's claims, making the process of hiring raiders easier.

[Tojara]

I don't know how fast content will be cleared in Vanilla, but I'll tell you it will be cleared a hell of a lot faster than it was 13 years ago, by a considerable margin.

It really depends on what version they release, regardless I assume all bugs are going to be removed, otherwise that would be absolutely fucking retarded.

If everything is present at launch people are just going to farm the ever living shit out of Diremaul, proceed to ZG and then clear everything in Molten Core and Onyxia Lair with relative ease (spawning Majordomo is probably the only real barrier to Molten Core). Obviously people are going to fill slots with those misc over budgeted blues (Hand of Justice, and the quest 2% crit from the UBRS chain). Molten Core gear was itemized terribly for the most part and almost everything out of Diremaul and ZG was better.

BWL won't take long at all, and you only need your tanks with the Onyxia scale cloak. Presumably they would fix the bug that allows you to avoid cheesing Nefarian's breath upon entering the second phase. Regardless you could just level multiple characters and kill Onyxia multiple times a week to increase the amount of cloaks you have. There are other ways to cheese it too (paladin bubble, massing druids to rebirth, shaman ankh, and rogues using vanish when it fires to immune it).

AQ40 would be cleared pretty quickly without Ouru (optional anyway) and C'thun being absolutely broken with bugs. Nature resistance doesn't matter. The alliance guild on our server had a monopoly during vanilla for us on the green dragons, so maybe two people in our 40 man raid had epic NR gear from them. Huhuran was easily doable with other NR gear acquired from Silithus and the dungeon in Desolace which name escapes me.

Naxx was actually fairly bug free, but has some gear requirements. Might be the only raid that takes sometime to actually complete, but it still wouldn't last nearly as long as it did when it was relevant 12 years ago.

People also forget that people started taking raiding more and more serious as Vanilla went on. Yeah good players would farm for tubers and such in Felwood, but it wasn't really common to see flasks until Naxx, and it was only really common before then to have it on your tank and that was it. Hope people realize that while world buffs and such were abused pretty heavily for the last ~3 bosses in Naxx, it wasn't common place (nor really needed in earlier tiers). Knowing what people know now, I'd expect any kinda gear check to be met with saving Onxyia Head, Hakkar's Heart, Rend's head and everybody meeting in Felwood for the Felflower buff that lasts for an hour before you start your raid.

[Pantalaimon]

You're a troll right? Anyone know if he's a troll? I think he's a troll.

Achievements are NOT fun and doesn't give most people goals in the game unless they're mouth-breathing basement dwellers. Back in the day if you wanted to prove to someone you had ran a raid, you had them inspect your gear to show you had gear from that place. Not only did that help people see that indeed you had ran it but showed you were probably geared enough to actually help the raid down bosses. Now people pay gold or real money to get achievements so they can link to "prove" they are good players but when you get them to something & find out they are complete idiots, you've wasted your time, wasted the raids time, and now you're locked to a raid that you won't be completing simply because you're "good" and bought your achievement.

So you're taking some of the negative aspects of raiding achievements and using that to state your objective (subjective) opinion that achievements are not fun for most players? Kay bro.

Achievements helped to create part of the aspect of WoW that veered away from the 'raid or die' element of the game. You can work on other things and even sometimes get rewarded with your efforts with things that didn't exclusively from raiding content.

[-Konst-]

As someone that has BWL on a roughly 1 hour-1hr 15 minute clear time ( could be much shorter but we don't skip trash because we want trash loot ) I can definitely tell you that Vanilla is easy.

And spare me the veteran bullshit, most people didn't kill Nefarian. Hell most people probably didn't even kill Ragnaros and Molten Core is a giant loot pinata.

The only hard part in raids is learning some simple mechanics and getting 40 men on the same page.



I probably achieved more in Vanilla than you have so spare me the nostalgia roadtrip. I know very well how a community with no name changes or realm transfers works.

Achievements will not change anything you said. They're just a degree that you can use to verify's someone's claims, making the process of hiring raiders easier.

You must be a very ignorant and angry person. What do you even mean with veteran bullshit? Its a fact that its veteran players who dedicated a lot of time and effort into giving blizzard enough reason to make vanilla become a reality again. Its these veteran players this game will cater too. I never said vanilla was difficult in the sense of raiding. in fact MC, Onyxia and ZG is a breeze. BWL can be somewhat of a challenge for people. Its at AQ40 and Naxx the difficult really start.

"You probably achieved more in Vanilla than I" hehe. I have killed all bosses in vanilla except c'thun and kel'thuzad. Did have some great attempts against them. My resume or yours adds nothing to this conversation, so why even try to take that angle?

The general achivement system is a no go. It might be ok with a short overview of what end bosses a player have killed, but again to what purpose? To make the social aspect easier? Then no, that is not a good reason. Everything that makes the game easier is at its very core faulty. Its important to discuss, but the words and concepts presented needs to actually hold some value and not strive away from the philosophy of vanilla.

[Deleted]

I remember joining a guild with this crazy russian guild leader during AQ times.

He made this "only good players" raid, which by todays standards is about a heroic group - it took us 2 wipes total to clear MC and BWL - in a completely new raidgroup (mostly newly leveled characters), the hardest part was only having one Onyxia cloak.

We cleared AQ a few raids later, again huhuran "blocked" us mostly because of the Nature resistance requirement.

Classic is trash compared to todays standards. More fun, maybe - but difficulty wise its trash.

That sounds exactly like what happen to me on Darksorrow and the guild <Envy>, it wasn't that guild was it? ^^

[rootbeerboy]

You must be a very ignorant and angry person. What do you even mean with veteran bullshit? Its a fact that its veteran players who dedicated a lot of time and effort into giving blizzard enough reason to make vanilla become a reality again. Its these veteran players this game will cater too. I never said vanilla was difficult in the sense of raiding. in fact MC, Onyxia and ZG is a breeze. BWL can be somewhat of a challenge for people. Its at AQ40 and Naxx the difficult really start.

"You probably achieved more in Vanilla than I" hehe. I have killed all bosses in vanilla except c'thun and kel'thuzad. Did have some great attempts against them. My resume or yours adds nothing to this conversation, so why even try to take that angle?

The general achivement system is a no go. It might be ok with a short overview of what end bosses a player have killed, but again to what purpose? To make the social aspect easier? Then no, that is not a good reason. Everything that makes the game easier is at its very core faulty. Its important to discuss, but the words and concepts presented needs to actually hold some value and not strive away from the philosophy of vanilla.

Blizzard will cater to everyone with the second rendition of vanilla wow because they know it's worth the income.

[TriggeredKid]

Sorry to ruin your dreams but there's no achievements in game and there wont be nor will there be a group finder since no realms will be connected, pretty obvious.

[rootbeerboy]

Sorry to ruin your dreams but there's no achievements in game and there wont be nor will there be a group finder since no realms will be connected, pretty obvious.

No one said anything about a group finder topKEK. And if they don't have achievements classic will definitely have a modern armory showing what raid bosses your character has killed.

[Sturmbringe]

I remember joining a guild with this crazy russian guild leader during AQ times.

He made this "only good players" raid, which by todays standards is about a heroic group - it took us 2 wipes total to clear MC and BWL - in a completely new raidgroup (mostly newly leveled characters), the hardest part was only having one Onyxia cloak.

We cleared AQ a few raids later, again huhuran "blocked" us mostly because of the Nature resistance requirement.

Classic is trash compared to todays standards. More fun, maybe - but difficulty wise its trash.

Based on my extensive experience with raiding in WoW Vanilla both in Blizzard servers as well as in Private Server Projects, the above is just BS or bad trolling.