"But it's optional!"

[The Anax]

Are you replying to a post made by another? Literally everything you responded with doesn't apply to anything I have posted. Leveling is not an optional part of the game. No ifs ands or buts. It is required to see the content. Artifacts are not optional and their mechanics are forced upon you. Legion content is locked behind obtaining at least one Artifact. You don't have to use that artifact but you severely handicap your characters power and ability to contribute.

Why are you confused about me saying that things the original poster called optional are literally not optional.

Oops, maybe I hit the quote button by accident on your post! I may have made a faux pas, wait, actually, yeah just double checked. What I am confused about was this, to maybe make it more succinct (my apologies for misunderstanding, but...)

It sounds as if you are making this statement to me:

"I want to play WoW. However, I want to play a WoW wihtout leveling, artifacts, where no content is locked."

However, my confusion stems from:

"WoW is a game of leveling, with artifacts and locked content."

I am confused on this thread by people wanting opposing realities. They will optionally choose to play WoW, a game that they clearly hate, while seemingly feeling as if they are 'made' to do it. Perplexing! lol

[Queen of Hamsters]

Something that's boring to you, is fun to someone else.

And no matter how much it triggers people such as yourself, it is all optional. Grown human beings (assuming here, starting to have my doubts) being so angered by "being forced to do things in a game!!" is just plain funny.

[ThePhantombox]

If you're doing remotely serious raiding and trying to contribute to your team, it's NOT OPTIONAL to:

-AP grind to 75+ traits
-grind all the proper legendaries
-weekly mythic+15 runs
-enchants & gems
-and a long list of other checkpoints

It's mandatory for high-end raiding.

Yes, raiding is optional. So is breathing air you donkey.

1. Doesn't take long at all if you play even sometimes.
2. Spend like two-three hours a week on argus and show up to raid and you'll get them
3. Takes 30 mins with a guild group.
4. lol

Sounds like you just can't be fucked to play the game.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Oops, maybe I hit the quote button by accident on your post! I may have made a faux pas, wait, actually, yeah just double checked. What I am confused about was this, to maybe make it more succinct (my apologies for misunderstanding, but...)

It sounds as if you are making this statement to me:

"I want to play WoW. However, I want to play a WoW wihtout leveling, artifacts, where no content is locked."

However, my confusion stems from:

"WoW is a game of leveling, with artifacts and locked content."

I am confused on this thread by people wanting opposing realities. They will optionally choose to play WoW, a game that they clearly hate, while seemingly feeling as if they are 'made' to do it. Perplexing! lol

Some people amongst a vocal minority are pissed off by the fact that they "have" to play the game in order to play the game "where it counts" (according to their subjective opinion).

It's confusing since it seems counter-productive.

[The Anax]

Some people amongst a vocal minority are pissed off by the fact that they "have" to play the game in order to play the game "where it counts" (according to their subjective opinion).

It's confusing since it seems counter-productive.

Precisely!

[Ranganathan]

The "optional" response has acquired meme-like status because so many people assert that long-ass grinds are "mandatory". One is about as smart as another, i.e. not really relevant at all.

If the game is fun then fine, play it. If it's boring and not fun then that's fine too, don't play it. Personal enjoyment is really the only metric that should matter.

Sure. But the trouble is it's not black and white. It's not "the game" as if it's some unified monolithic whole. There's dozens of mini-games and side content and options. Which, in and of itself is good. But gating things that are fun behind tediously long grinds that aren't fun is bullshit. This is where most of these complaints come from.

X is fun, but Y sucks. But X is locked behind Y. And instead of the discussion of maybe there's a better way to do this, it's always some moronic version of "fuck you, quit" or "it's optional".

And for the inevitable: "You just want shit handed to you!"

No. But recognize it's not either, or. The options aren't: 1) Instant max with full gear, all mounts, all achiements, etc... or 2) Super long grinds for practically everything. There's is a vast middle ground that's left untouched.

[Dormie]

I'd like to put up "people like different things" as a failed counterargument. You can't argue whether game mechanics should exist or not based on "well some people like it". *cough*LFR*cough*

[rhorle]

Arifacts are required, ap grinding is not

Context is something you need to learn. The person I quoted said Artifacts are optional you don't need to use them. You certainly do need to use them in Legion. Gaining AP is not optional. I never said that you are required to grind for AP.

[Deleted]

The problem that you're having here is that you're confusing "optimal" with "mandatory". Context here is actually really important. When someone says something like "If you don't like flying, then don't fly" it's perfectly legitimate because the consequences of not flying is negligible. However, if someone doesn't use the optimal talents, then it can have a drastic effect on their performance and the performance of their group.

Honestly, comparing flight to talents is like saying "If you're not in a mythic raid guild, then you're not playing optimally". Maybe someone only wants to mess around in normal or heroic. Are they wrong for doing so because it's not "optimal"?

But when someone says that he hates flying, a lot of the times he means the consequences it brings to the community and the game in general.
I will change nothing if i decide to not fly...lol...at most the reaction will be "look at that loser, not flying, lolz"

[Queen of Hamsters]

I'd like to put up "people like different things" as a failed counterargument. You can't argue whether game mechanics should exist or not based on "well some people like it". *cough*LFR*cough*

From the standpoint of someone that doesn't like the features/mechanics I assume?

LFR is still in the game for that exact reason. Sure a lot of MMO-C edgelords proclaim loudly that they hate LFR, but the fact of the matter is still that LFR is the endgame progression to a huge part of the community.

Every single feature can be argued that it "shouldn't be in the game", but the reasons will never be based in anything but personal opinions unless the argument goes on between developers, not on MMO-C.

[rhorle]

No. But recognize it's not either, or. The options aren't: 1) Instant max with full gear, all mounts, all achiements, etc... or 2) Super long grinds for practically everything. There's is a vast middle ground that's left untouched.

There is a middle ground already though. That is what some people have trying to tell you in this thread. You are just as guilty of saying it is only 1 of 2 options.

[Queen of Hamsters]

No. But recognize it's not either, or. The options aren't: 1) Instant max with full gear, all mounts, all achiements, etc... or 2) Super long grinds for practically everything. There's is a vast middle ground that's left untouched.

No, it's not.

The problem is that the "middle ground", tends to be discarded as "meaningless" by the sort of people feeling like they're forced to do shit in this game. That mentality, is self-inflicted. Blizzard's aim is to always have people see reasons for logging in and staying subbed, not babysit people with a sincere lack of self-control.

[The Anax]

Sure. But the trouble is it's not black and white. It's not "the game" as if it's some unified monolithic whole. There's dozens of mini-games and side content and options. Which, in and of itself is good. But gating things that are fun behind tediously long grinds that aren't fun is bullshit. This is where most of these complaints come from.

X is fun, but Y sucks. But X is locked behind Y. And instead of the discussion of maybe there's a better way to do this, it's always some moronic version of "fuck you, quit" or "it's optional".

And for the inevitable: "You just want shit handed to you!"

No. But recognize it's not either, or. The options aren't: 1) Instant max with full gear, all mounts, all achiements, etc... or 2) Super long grinds for practically everything. There's is a vast middle ground that's left untouched.

Yes, it appears I won't be able to comprehend this. I never do things I do not enjoy, unless whatever I do want requires it. For example, I go to an annoying job in order to make a paltry sum, so that I can spend my free time playing WoW. The goal, WoW, requires that I spend time grinding U.S. currency in order to play it, pay for electricity, a computer, and such. However, I do not like driving or people. Thus, if I find myself hungry at night, and I want to go get an iced cream somewhere, I choose not to. It is not worth the effort and discomfort required to unlock the iced cream for me to eat.

I guess that is my issue. If I did not like the game, I would not play it. If I did not like a part of the game, which I do not like a large amount of the game, I do not do it. I only do it, if required, by the game I am choosing to play. Example: I dislike arenas, but as the Red Shirt Guy of trolls, I am compelled by my nature to have all troll mounts in WoW. Thus, I paid two people 100,000 gold (50k each) to take me through arenas, and after 100 wins, I had my mount. I did not enjoy that part of the game, but seeing my Zandalari level up on that beauty will certainly be enjoyable to me. It was worth the nonsense I endured, which is part of the game, and in both these cases I chose to do them. I did not have to get the raptor, nor did I have to do the arenas, I could have simply opted out, but I wanted it and didn't complain.

Oh well, I will never understand shades of gray since the universe is merely a vast true/false Boolean cosmos. Everything is a 1 or a 0, and anything appearing otherwise appears to be tainted by someone's subjective emotions.

[Ranganathan]

This is where I am having a hard time understanding folks. And, mayhap it is my autism, but this seems illogical. Logically-

If aquiring AP + proper legendaries + weekly runs + enchants and gems + other checkpoints = raiding

and

aquiring AP + proper legendaries + weekly runs + enchants and gems + other checkpoints =/= fun for player

then

Why are you raiding? This is where I am getting lost? It's as if people want to play the game, but don't want to play the game lol My brain can't take the paradoxes I keep reading!

Because people are willing to put up with shit they don't like to get to do the things they do like. For example: shitty job and food. I don't like my shitty job but I really like having food to eat. Some people really like raiding so will put up with lots of shit they don't like to get to raid.

Problem is, this is a game. It shouldn't be a shitty part-time job.

[SirCowdog]

But when someone says that he hates flying, a lot of the times he means the consequences it brings to the community and the game in general.
I will change nothing if i decide to not fly...lol...at most the reaction will be "look at that loser, not flying, lolz"

"The consequences it brings to the community". Uh...care to expand on wtf that means?

Regardless, choosing to fly might be considered "optimal", but the actual harm you suffer by NOT flying is marginal unless you're super obsessed with experiencing the game from the ground. In effect, you're choosing to sacrifice the "intended experience" for efficiency of grind. One or the other. It's only "Optimal" if your focus is on grinding as fast as possible. It's actually sub-optimal if you want to get the grounded experience.

This is the same concept if someone only really wants to screw around at the LFR/Normal level. They're sacrificing optimal efficiency for enjoyment in another part of the game. The fact that they don't enjoy the game or focus on the same things as a hardcore raider does, doesn't mean they're actually playing the game wrong.

This idea that the only acceptable way to play the game is by sacrificing EVERYTHING for efficiency is a deeply flawed perception.

[rhorle]

Because people are willing to put up with shit they don't like to get to do the things they do like. For example: shitty job and food. I don't like my shitty job but I really like having food to eat. Some people really like raiding so will put up with lots of shit they don't like to get to raid. Problem is, this is a game. It shouldn't be a shitty part-time job.

You never had to grind to clear the content in Legion. The content wasn't balanced around min/max everything in Legion. Your argument is calling bleeding edge world progression as a shitty part time job. When a shitty part time job is a casual guild that clears the content of their ability with out worrying about consuming it the fastest.

Again you are limiting yourself to Option 1 and Option 2 while moaning and groaning about no middle ground. When you yourself are ignoring the middle ground in order to huff and puff and troll.

[The Anax]

Because people are willing to put up with shit they don't like to get to do the things they do like. For example: shitty job and food. I don't like my shitty job but I really like having food to eat. Some people really like raiding so will put up with lots of shit they don't like to get to raid.

Problem is, this is a game. It shouldn't be a shitty part-time job.

But, that is the paradox. If you want to raid, then you would put up with whatever 'shit' is required to do it, because you like it. If not, you simply would not raid, since raiding, apparently, entails many things this hypthetical person does not like. I am no less confused.

[Hctaz]

I chose not to, and to just let it come, because doing Mythic Raiding day 1 was just not that important. If it is that important to you, thats your choice. Game isnt forcing you. You dont have to hit the grind to succeed, and doing so is often a terrible return on time spent.

Yes, you chose not to because Mythic raiding wasn't a priority. The problem here is that I've been clearing heroic (renamed to Mythic in the WoD prepatch) content since it was released in Ulduar. Anything less than mythic is too easy for me, and I don't get any enjoyment out of it.

I'm not complaining about any of the grinds we have had pre-Legion, it's only the shit they added with Legion that made it significantly worse. AP, Legendary farming, titanforging up to infinite levels.. all of that is ass for anybody who plays at a week 1 mythic level. I also sincerely doubt that those things actually add any fun to non-mythic raiders. It seems to me that they've put more systems in place to get mythic raiders on a treadmill without actually doing anything that will make casual players have more fun.

They should really add more optional stuff like real player housing (Garrisons were a joke: Go look at Runescape if you want some real player housing), side quest areas/grinds like the Argent Tournament that reward cosmetic mounts or unique armor sets, and just other stuff you can do to pass the time without putting an actual power gain reward onto it. Just stay away from power acquisition grinds. Let the raids and dungeons have those naturally without adding more work for the players who take that part of the game seriously.

And if you don't believe me or want to argue that these features were put in the game for casuals: Were they? Do you know why Thunderforged and Warforged items were introduced in MoP? They specifically stated it was to prevent people from unsubbing after they've acquired BiS gear. Do you know who unsubs after acquiring BiS gear? The people who farm the raid on the hardest difficulty starting on week 1. They specifically released this system as a means to "incentivize" hardcore players to stick around and keep farming the same bosses over and over again. They designed the "-forged" system to give mythic (heroic in MoP) raiders a new treadmill to grind out. How about legendary items? Do casuals really care which two they have? Maybe. It might suck not getting your BiS, but item level is all that people look for. If you have two then at this point then you're set for any heroic run (assuming you have AotC). No, those legendary items were designed to be ANOTHER treadmill for Mythic raiders. And you've already proven my next point about AP yourself. You said that, since you don't fancy doing Mythic raiding day 1, the AP grind was meaningless. Well, it was created to be ANOTHER reason for Mythic raiders to remain subbed at all times.

All of these things are completely inconsequential for the average player, but are completely relevant to anybody who wants to clear the Mythic content quickly.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Because people are willing to put up with shit they don't like to get to do the things they do like. For example: shitty job and food. I don't like my shitty job but I really like having food to eat. Some people really like raiding so will put up with lots of shit they don't like to get to raid.

Problem is, this is a game. It shouldn't be a shitty part-time job.

And it's not a "shitty part-time job". You yourself have chosen to play at a certain level, others seem quite capable of following the middle ground and are still seeing bosses go down at the highest difficulty before the content is outdated.

If you feel that playing the game is a "shitty part-time job", then you're probably not doing yourself a service trying to stick with the game at the very cutting edge level, which I'm assuming you're talking about here.

[SirCowdog]

You never had to grind to clear the content in Legion. The content wasn't balanced around min/max everything in Legion. Your argument is calling bleeding edge world progression as a shitty part time job. When a shitty part time job is a casual guild that clears the content of their ability with out worrying about consuming it the fastest.

Again you are limiting yourself to Option 1 and Option 2 while moaning and groaning about no middle ground. When you yourself are ignoring the middle ground in order to huff and puff and troll.

But, that is the paradox. If you want to raid, then you would put up with whatever 'shit' is required to do it, because you like it. If not, you simply would not raid, since raiding, apparently, entails many things this hypthetical person does not like. I am no less confused.

Isn't this exactly what LFR is for? So that raiding isn't a "shitty part time job"? You can just raid without dealing with all the parts that most people consider irritating and annoying to do?

The problem is that some people place arbitrary conditions on what's acceptable or not. "Mythic raiding or GTFO". Everything else is sub optimal, or unacceptable, so they convince themselves that they MUST grind to perform at that level. It's complete nonsense.