[Megathread] Destiny

[Jtbrig7390]

They've still got pretty big numbers despite the dropoff, and re-engaging folks this early after launch isn't out of the question. They can absolutely turn things around and bring back players who have left/expand the pool of players to bring in new blood, it will just mean that we need to see pretty much a brand new Bungie in the coming months. Much more frequent, transparent communication, much faster reactions to addressing issues, figuring out a way to quickly address event issues, making sure subsequent content drops (which need to start happening quick) are sufficiently meaty etc.

They have a big hill to climb, but it's climbable.

The thing is we could get that Bungie, We did get it from Taken King onward in Destiny 1, the trick is keeping them around for longer.

[grandpab]

Well so far has Bungie even done a single thing that shows they're willing to improve D2? I know they got dmg04 collecting player feedback, but I feel like they're just simply trying to appease us and they don't really plan on doing anything to fix it. They didn't fuck us over this much with D1 and with every expansion there was a little more hope. D2 is the exact opposite so far. The more content they release and the more time that goes by the less players are trusting Bungie.

[Aliven]

For me since I play on Console Bungie/Destiny has entered my (ill buy it used maybe) list. I gave them a shot with Destiny 1 and against my gut feeling I gave them another with Destiny 2 because it seemed at first they learned.

But Bungie literally repeated history right down to cutting content and rebooting development late in. I really couldn't be surprised if after this is all said and done Activision cuts ties with them.

Why should Activision cut ties from them? They make them money. We are talking about activision who patented system to pair players with better players with cash shop items so when they lose they may feel pride and accomplishment (TM by EA) to buy the stuff the guy just won had.

No. its like saying Jabba the Hut should cut ties to some shady smuggler, because it may negative impact him. Lol...

[Edge-]

Well so far has Bungie even done a single thing that shows they're willing to improve D2? I know they got dmg04 collecting player feedback, but I feel like they're just simply trying to appease us and they don't really plan on doing anything to fix it. They didn't fuck us over this much with D1 and with every expansion there was a little more hope. D2 is the exact opposite so far. The more content they release and the more time that goes by the less players are trusting Bungie.

Thus far no, but we're supposed to get a big info dump on Thursday so we'll see. But they're absolutely doing some serious damage to both the Destiny and Bungie brands with this, the game is still getting plenty of press attention but all of the non-strictly news posts (like Xur location/inventory or the weekly update info) are pretty negative, which doesn't do them any favors.

[Baconeggcheese]

As I wrote elsewhere, do some Earth missions/events on a fresh, low level character then do them on your current character. There is absolutely a very noticable power difference even without the straightforward raw numbers.

I think the difference in guns alone can make that difference yet alone everything else. The green / blue guns you get while leveling are all just worse progressively worse versions of purple guns. That progression alone makes a massive difference.

Though its something they completely lose at end game, especially with these DLC's where they apparently don't think its a good idea to make the DLC guns desirable.

[Coldkil]

-snip-

If it paid off, people wouldn't get away from D2.

Nothing is "at your level". It's you that get scaled down to their level. It's just a pathetic excuse to try to hide the fact the endgame is next to non-existant.

The only scaling system that actually works is Mythic+. You get progressively more powerful to tackle more powerful enemies for more powerful versions of the same items and you're compelled to do so because you actually get more powerful, and while you do your dailies youì're faster every day.

In D2 this simply doesn't happen at all. Excluding the leveling part - you do events in 5 minutes as fresh 20 and as 330 power because you get scaled down. There's no sesible progression, power level is just an arbitrary number.

At 330 i should be able to solo heroic strikes easily since they're aimed around 270 power, but that doesn't happen because you get scaled down. You don't do anything faster the higher your power becomes - i always takes the same time.

Making everything scaled to you (or the contrary) just makes eveything equal. People play to get stronger - you don't get stronger in D2 because you don't get things done faster/solo over time.

I know that you get a slight advantage the more power you get, but it's negligible. There's literally nothing except some OP exotics that make me want to play over and over.

And honestly, comparing a fresh 20 to my current character, it's literally the same to me. You get to 270 fast as hell then it's all the same. The only thing that changes is different weapons behaviour and obviously your class.

But then, i just can be a bad player that doesn't understand the game at all. Only thing i can say, is that i don't feel my character is really better than when i started playing it.

[nekobaka]

For the most part the scaling has been a thing since D1. Hardmode end bosses early on had a higher light level adds than obtainable by players to add difficulty and why they got easier in the follow DLC/expansion. Normal mode was no easier.

Scaling is one of those features that stuck in D1 despite some complaints. I find it doubtful that introducing a typical RPG power progression over overgeared content mechanic is anywhere near the to do list.

[Coldkil]

Honestly, i can see the whole point. It just makes sense.

However, playing destiny 2 feels just like buying a faster car to reach your destination faster but the world moves also accordingly faster, so you continue to buy better and better cars but the trip A->B takes always the same time.

Or like getting a raise but all prices increase accordingly, so you're not richer than before since you buy the exact same stuff just for more.

Maybe it's just me.

EDIT: it may be just HOW the scaling is implemented. I expected to find progressively harder strikes to get better gear someway like M+ in WoW. Instead we have a flat surface that moves together with you so you get higher and higher from ground but the jump from you and the surface stays the same all the time.

[Edge-]

If it paid off, people wouldn't get away from D2.

If there weren't problems in other areas of the game, you'd be right. But there are. The level scaling isn't the core issue in the game, and looking at player grips in the forums/social media/reddit that very much rings true. It's other issues like terribly bland specs, boring as hell gear, boring stats, etc. etc. that all directly impact folks desire to play. And again, the relative lack of content overall not supporting such a system like this.

Nothing is "at your level". It's you that get scaled down to their level. It's just a pathetic excuse to try to hide the fact the endgame is next to non-existant.

Except it is. My damage on Earth or Titan is nearly identical to my damage in a heroic strike, for example.

And yes, endgame is super meager, which is its own problem. It's not the fault of level scaling, it's the fault of Bungies poor design decisions and reported very late overhaul of the entire game.

The only scaling system that actually works is Mythic+. You get progressively more powerful to tackle more powerful enemies for more powerful versions of the same items and you're compelled to do so because you actually get more powerful, and while you do your dailies youì're faster every day.

But you scale up or down based on the Mythic level, no? You're right, having a progressive challenge system like that is a good system and I'd love to see one integrated for Strikes and the like in Destiny 2. But again, WoW has expanded level scaling beyond just Mythic out into the open world and they're continuing to do so because it works. If players weren't responding to it positively overall, they would be dropping it and changing direction.

In D2 this simply doesn't happen at all. Excluding the leveling part - you do events in 5 minutes as fresh 20 and as 330 power because you get scaled down. There's no sesible progression, power level is just an arbitrary number.

Again, you're looking for purely linear power progression. That's not how Destiny is designed and it would undermine Bungies efforts throughout the entire game. It would invalidate all the old planets, all their currencies, all those daily activities, etc. They'd have to fundamentally redesign the entire game.

The progression is the additional activities you gain access to - nightfalls, raids, prestige modes etc., and, as I've said over and over, the indirect power gain via expanded mods/perks on exotics/masterworks etc.

At 330 i should be able to solo heroic strikes easily since they're aimed around 270 power, but that doesn't happen because you get scaled down. You don't do anything faster the higher your power becomes - i always takes the same time.

They're not "aimed" at 270, that's simply when they become accessible and it's the power level that they intend players to complete them at (permanently).

And I mean, you can absolutely solo heroic strikes. I ended up soloing most of one of the CoO strikes yesterday because both my strikemates were mostly AFK. I'm around 325 power level now on my titan and it wasn't terribly difficult for the most part. Hell, folks have been soloing/duoing Nightfalls for a while as well.

Making everything scaled to you (or the contrary) just makes eveything equal. People play to get stronger - you don't get stronger in D2 because you don't get things done faster/solo over time.

I know that you get a slight advantage the more power you get, but it's negligible. There's literally nothing except some OP exotics that make me want to play over and over.

You may, but not necessarily everyone. And again we do get stronger. We're currently stronger now with masterwork weapons than we were without, because they not only come with the added passive perk of faster reload times etc. but more importantly they grant power orb drops. That can considerably increase uptime for ultimate, which is itself a pretty big deal.

And yes, the terrible itemization/gearing system in the game is a persistent problem and one the community has been very vocal about, especially compared to Destiny 1. Between that and very lackluster character stat customization that's a big reason why many folks are finding themselves logging in less and less frequently. There's simply very little loot that's desirable in this looter-shooter, which is kinda fucking up literally half the game : P

And honestly, comparing a fresh 20 to my current character, it's literally the same to me. You get to 270 fast as hell then it's all the same. The only thing that changes is different weapons behaviour and obviously your class.

On an alt absolutely, because gear drops based off your accounts highest power level. And on a main, it still takes a bit but I believe they increased the speed you gain power in CoO, which makes sense. It's no different than any other game making leveling/gearing faster as it progresses to keep the barrier of entry for new players relatively the same and not have it constantly increase higher and higher to the point where it becomes a barrier to playing at all.

And why shouldn't it be "the same"? What should be different? You're already gaining access to different activities you didn't used to have - again, raids, nightfalls, prestige modes etc. - that provide the additional challenge that's not found in the open world. Because the open world isn't supposed to be challenging.

But then, i just can be a bad player that doesn't understand the game at all. Only thing i can say, is that i don't feel my character is really better than when i started playing it.

I think it's more a matter of personal/subjective taste. You're critiques of the design from a subjective point are absolutely, 100% fair, but it seems you sometimes frame them from a more "objective" standpoint, which is where they falter IMO. The game may just not be for you, and that's just fine. There are other, similar games like Division that might be more up your alley - with more linear gear progression and power gains that absolutely make a difference in player power throughout the game that's very noticeable. They took a very different approach than Destiny (instead giving you a world difficulty slider and eventually leading to situations where much of the game-world is a total non-threat even on the highest difficulty) and it similarly achieves their goals and works on a design level.

I found I enjoy both approaches, so I count myself lucky. But some folks may enjoy one and not the other, and while it's a bit of a bummer it is what it is.

[Kathandira]

snip

I think there is something that needs to remain at the center of this discussion. If are to talk about what should be in this game, we have to keep what the game is sold as in focus. Since the game was sold as a looter shooter, there are certain expectations in regards to the loot.

I know you already agree that the itemization is quite flawed, but keeping this in mind helps understand why some people feel cheated when the gear is seemingly irrelevant, and why they don't exactly feel like they are getting more powerful as they "progress" to level cap and acquire all of the BiS items.

Again, I sure i'm preaching to the choir here, but I just wanted to add that to the discussion as I think it is very important to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

[Puri]

Again, you're looking for purely linear power progression. That's not how Destiny is designed and it would undermine Bungies efforts throughout the entire game. It would invalidate all the old planets, all their currencies, all those daily activities, etc. They'd have to fundamentally redesign the entire game.

The progression is the additional activities you gain access to - nightfalls, raids, prestige modes etc., and, as I've said over and over, the indirect power gain via expanded mods/perks on exotics/masterworks etc.

But no progression does exactly that. I invalidates all content, not just old content. What's the point of doing anything in D2 when you can get only marginally better? The power gain over mods (what do you mean, are there other mods than those you can buy in the city?), exotics (where it is more efficient to wait for Xur than farming) and masterworks (as soon as you have one) is minimal.
So not only is there no reason to do outdated content, but it even means there is no reason to do current content if the only thing that changes is the number in your char screen.

[Kathandira]

But no progression does exactly that. I invalidates all content, not just old content. What's the point of doing anything in D2 when you can get only marginally better? The power gain over mods (what do you mean, are there other mods than those you can buy in the city?), exotics (where it is more efficient to wait for Xur than farming) and masterworks (as soon as you have one) is minimal.
So not only is there no reason to do outdated content, but it even means there is no reason to do current content if the only thing that changes is the number in your char screen.

Tie that to the fact that Armor provided from Planet Vendors, PvP, Loot Boxes, The Gunsmith, Cryptark, and Raids all have the exact same stats, and it is hard to feel any sense of progression in the game aside from certain activities have specific weapons in their loot table. It's simply too shallow of a reward system.

[Edge-]

*snippy*

Absolutely. Once Bungie gets around to addressing core issues around loot and character customization that will go a long way in addressing other concerns/criticisms. The huge de-emphasis on the RPG elements of the game has been a focal point for a lot of folks, and for good reason.

What's the point of doing anything in D2 when you can get only marginally better?

Because the content itself is fun, as long as there is some sort of beneficial/interesting reward for doing it. Again, the bigger issue is that the rewards (gear) aren't remotely interesting/exciting enough to justify folks continuing to spend a lot of time redoing it. Give them more interesting/attractive rewards and that resolves many issues.

The power gain over mods (what do you mean, are there other mods than those you can buy in the city?), exotics (where it is more efficient to wait for Xur than farming) and masterworks (as soon as you have one) is minimal.

Not at all. Taking off all my exotics on my titan would lose me considerable power. Losing passive regeneration on autorifle ammo, especially with the minigun exotic, would be a huge loss to damage overall as I'd be spending far more time reloading during fights/travel rather than letting all that happen passively. And despite ammo issues with the minigun, it absolutely shreds enemies in a way no other standard assault rifle can hope to.

As for masterworks, it can give you nearly twice the uptime for your ultimate, which is freaking huge. It's to the point where there's been serious discussion as to whether rolling with masterwork weapons and no exotics can potentially be superior to losing a slot to an exotic weapon.

So not only is there no reason to do outdated content, but it even means there is no reason to do current content if the only thing that changes is the number in your char screen.

Yep but again, this is all primarily tied to issues with gearing and customization rather than level scaling. Resolve those and the level scaling issues are resolved, or become considerably less of an issue.

[Kathandira]

Taking off all my exotics on my titan would lose me considerable power. Losing passive regeneration on autorifle ammo, especially with the minigun exotic, would be a huge loss to damage overall as I'd be spending far more time reloading during fights/travel rather than letting all that happen passively. And despite ammo issues with the minigun, it absolutely shreds enemies in a way no other standard assault rifle can hope to.

Serious, Actium War Rig is WAY OP! There hasn't been any other exotic for any class that compares. Nearly doubling your magazine size is just insane!

Though, it is only OP because of how weak the majority of other exotics are. Exotics across the board need a buff. I don't even equip an exotic weapon 90% of the time. Only merciless when it comes time for close range burns on bosses. Otherwise, my load out has been the same since the first Trials/Raid.

Origin Story
Prosecutor
Sins of the Past

The above is just way too powerful, especially on a Titan.

[Edge-]

Serious, Actium War Rig is WAY OP! There hasn't been any other exotic for any class that compares. Nearly doubling your magazine size is just insane!

Yeah, I occasionally toss on the gloves that extend your punch range for funsies, but it's just so damn good that I can't justify using pretty much anything else for general use. I'm sure there are more "optimal" builds for certain activities, but like Hard Light, it's such a powerful general-use combination.

Good thing I enjoy autorifles, but it would be nice if there was something remotely as good for general use that would allow me to mix up weapons more often. At least the punchy gloves are pretty solid and I enjoy punching things : P

Though, it is only OP because of how weak the majority of other exotics are. Exotics across the board need a buff.

Agreed, many of them feel so super situational or underwhelming. Part of is is that I only really play Void, as the other two builds specs don't appeal to me much. Another part may be that I don't see the utility in more challenging content as I don't really run raids/nightfalls at all, so my PoV is that of a casual player who does open world/heroic strikes and that's pretty much it. Would help to have FUNCTIONAL GOD DAMN CHAT to help build groups for nightfalls at least, even though my current (third) clan seems to have become a graveyard as well with nobody logging in anymore.

[Kathandira]

Yeah, I occasionally toss on the gloves that extend your punch range for funsies, but it's just so damn good that I can't justify using pretty much anything else for general use. I'm sure there are more "optimal" builds for certain activities, but like Hard Light, it's such a powerful general-use combination.

Good thing I enjoy autorifles, but it would be nice if there was something remotely as good for general use that would allow me to mix up weapons more often. At least the punchy gloves are pretty solid and I enjoy punching things : P



Agreed, many of them feel so super situational or underwhelming. Part of is is that I only really play Void, as the other two builds specs don't appeal to me much. Another part may be that I don't see the utility in more challenging content as I don't really run raids/nightfalls at all, so my PoV is that of a casual player who does open world/heroic strikes and that's pretty much it. Would help to have FUNCTIONAL GOD DAMN CHAT to help build groups for nightfalls at least, even though my current (third) clan seems to have become a graveyard as well with nobody logging in anymore.

I don't care too much about an in game chat as a console player, but I absolutely agree with those on PC that it is really important. I couldn't imagine playing a PC Co-Op game without at minimum a text chat. For console I would simply like an in game LFG tool.

[Edge-]

I don't care too much about an in game chat as a console player, but I absolutely agree with those on PC that it is really important. I couldn't imagine playing a PC Co-Op game without at minimum a text chat. For console I would simply like an in game LFG tool.

Yep, the lack of any functional in-game LFG tool is pretty bad, especially after leaning how important it was via third party solutions with Destiny 1. The "guided game" stuff seems like an "experiment" that they half-assed and have simply not gotten around to removing, because it seems largely useless.

And yeah, text chat isn't as important on console (though it would be great to have a chat-wheel with a handful of pre-written chat messages like some other games have), but as you say it's pretty much mandatory on PC. Still frustrating that we haven't heard a peep about it since around late October/Early November when they posted their first timeline -_-

[grandpab]

I feel like they're making a mistake trying to hype up tomorrows announcement. https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheG...uite_a_bit_of/

It'll only disappoint when they under deliver. We'll have to see what happens though.

[Puri]

Not at all. Taking off all my exotics on my titan would lose me considerable power. Losing passive regeneration on autorifle ammo, especially with the minigun exotic, would be a huge loss to damage overall as I'd be spending far more time reloading during fights/travel rather than letting all that happen passively. And despite ammo issues with the minigun, it absolutely shreds enemies in a way no other standard assault rifle can hope to.

As for masterworks, it can give you nearly twice the uptime for your ultimate, which is freaking huge. It's to the point where there's been serious discussion as to whether rolling with masterwork weapons and no exotics can potentially be superior to losing a slot to an exotic weapon.

It's not about having no exotics. Play the game for a few weeks and you have dozen exotics to choose from. Maybe there is a "better" one, but again the difference is minimal.
As for masterworks, sure they are very good weapons when they roll the raight trait, but this is in no relation to the time it would need to farm them when they drop with a very low chance and are literally the only upgrade that can drop.
It's just the carrot is both too far away and too small.

[Kathandira]

I feel like they're making a mistake trying to hype up tomorrows announcement. https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheG...uite_a_bit_of/

It'll only disappoint when they under deliver. We'll have to see what happens though.

I have my fury on a leash and ready to be released. They really have made a grand commitment to addressing a lot of really sensitive topics. I am on the edge of my seat to see if they crash and burn, or if they come out with some huge announcement regarding changes.