[SPECULATION] Queen Azshara of Zin'Azshara, the first ever mutated Zandalari Troll?

[vertigo12]

It's mentioned in several sources that Azshara was born with golden eyes, and that she was predicted to be destined for greatness - that superstition is only in ancient Night Elven culture, meaning she was born as a Night Elf, not a troll. Azshara's reign was well after Night Elves mutated from Dark Trolls, which was well after Dark Trolls mutated from Zandalari. There's little-to-no correlation there. Elves and trolls have always been fairly hostile with one another, even from the time Azshara was the queen. There's only one interaction between her and the Zandalari mentioned in Chronicle.

Zandalar was home to not only the most powerful trolls, but also many powerful Wild Gods (Loa). It explains why she allowed them to live, but didn't want to interact with them. She also has absolutely no connection to Rastakhan. He wasn't alive during the War of the Ancients - it's mentioned he has been alive (and ruling Zandalar) for "more than 200 years." Azshara has been a Naga for 10,000+ years. So, no, Azshara wasn't originally any sort of Troll, nor did she have any sincerely cordial relationship with them - it was only politics and fear.

Dark Trolls Turning into the first ever Night Elves are considered "ancient". Those who were born after the entire population of Dark Trolls, who voluntarily wanted to follow and reside near the Well of Eternity would consider it by their time to be a myth already. It says she was born with a golden eyes.Period. It was never mentioned she was born from a Night Elf with golden eyes.

[SoulSoBreezy]

- Azshara on the other hand as a character profile has ?????? Her identity, her past, her history as a queen and her reign, her ascenion,her lineage, the complete details about her is still shrouded in mystery just like how she is like now. Entirely enigmatic.

? It's easy enough to read. Here're the cliff notes:

- Born from "the most noble" heritage
- No ascension is mentioned nor children, suggesting her title as Queen isn't the result of any dynasty
- Her reign resulted in the fierce expansion of pretty much every territory in Kalimdor with the exception of Mount Hyjal, the end of the Troll wars and the growing technology of arcane magics. Then the Burning Legion swung by, blah blah it's all over.

It's limited sure, but hardly enigmatic. Additions to her past would either be very benign or a retcon.
But it doesn't take away the fact that your entire premise is based on a fabrication. There was no sudden mutation. The evolution of the Night Elves is no different from those who lived under the influence of the Nightwell or Sunwell.

[Marcellus1986]

Dark Trolls Turning into the first ever Night Elves are considered "ancient". Those who were born after the entire population of Dark Trolls, who voluntarily wanted to follow and reside near the Well of Eternity would consider it by their time to be a myth already. It says she was born with a golden eyes.Period. It was never mentioned she was born from a Night Elf with golden eyes.

>Being born with golden eyes is a night elf superstition.
>Azshara is a night elf.
>You post unfounded opinion that she could have been born a troll with golden eyes.
>No lore or evidence otherwise to support your position.
>Here’s to another 13 pages of you posting nothing of substance.

[vertigo12]

You have none of these things and have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt you have none of these things for 13 pages now. Reading between the lines is short-hand for conjecture, or in your case ‘making up bullshit as it comes into my brain’.

Myself and others have posted concrete sources to back our arguments up. You’re posting conspiracy nonsense, ad hominem and nothing else.

Either post your proof like you said you would or shut up.

No one takes you seriously.

Are you making a fool of yourself? If you haven't taken me seriously you wouldn't even be thinking of wasting your time following this thread and continuously replying.I wouldn't even waste my time typing and replying to any nonsense that I can read in this post. I simply ignore. Go check my first page as I have posted the page for Queen Azshara. How do you fckin' read what's written? Go figure.

The mere fact that after all these 13 pages and you are still here discussing things with me means you are discussing something with sense.You personally wouldn't talk about nonsense, right? Otherwise it's kinda pointless don't you think? If somebody's wasting time, I bet it's probably you.

[Marcellus1986]

Are you making a fool of yourself? If you haven't taken me seriously you wouldn't even even be thinking of wasting your time following this thread and continuously replying.I wouldn't even waste my time typing and replying to any nonesense that I can read in this post. I simply ignore. Go check my first page as I have posted the page for Queen Azshara. How do you fckin' read what's written? Go figure.

The mere fact that after all these 13 pages and you are still here discussing things with me means you are discussing something with sense.You would personally wouldn't talk about none sense, right? Otherwise it's kinda pointless don't you think? If somebody's wasting time then I bet it's you.

You posted a page from the Chronicles. Good for you! And ironically, it doesn’t mention anything you have claimed this entire thread.

[vertigo12]

? It's easy enough to read. Here're the cliff notes:

- Born from "the most noble" heritage
- No ascension is mentioned nor children, suggesting her title as Queen isn't the result of any dynasty
- Her reign resulted in the fierce expansion of pretty much every territory in Kalimdor with the exception of Mount Hyjal, the end of the Troll wars and the growing technology of arcane magics. Then the Burning Legion swung by, blah blah it's all over.

It's limited sure, but hardly enigmatic. Additions to her past would either be very benign or a retcon.
But it doesn't take away the fact that your entire premise is based on a fabrication. There was no sudden mutation. The evolution of the Night Elves is no different from those who lived under the influence of the Nightwell or Sunwell.

Are you sure? Because based on my understanding of evolution, when a new species is born and there is a noticeable difference between the progeny and the offspring, evolution and mutation take place within that bracket of one generation instantaneously.

Look how Illidan transformed into the first ever Demon Hunter. Wasn't it instantaneous? Or how the satyr and naga came to be? Look at how the orcs turned into the green orcs they are now, with a simple sip of demon's blood they became the way they are. Heck, even if the Warcraft movie scene where Thrall was born is considered canon didn't it happen within minutes? Haven't you notice the effect of the Arcan'dor fruit or how did the Fal'dorei came to be?

Take note that the waters of the Well of Eternity IS a titan's blood! It is the non coagulated blood of Azeroth, a pool of blood. Sargeras even tried to reach Azeroth's surface through that same thing, the Well of Eternity or Azeroth's blood! That is the reason why whichever faction has the most Azerite will become the most powerful faction, similar to how the Kaldorei empire came to be after the end of Aqir Wars and the waning of the Zul Empire- but never gone and ended.

I hope you understand where/what direction I'm going with regards to this discussion and also the reason why I posted this. It is a critical event in Azeroth's history as it might transform the races of Azeroth into something else, more powerful than they now are. That can be proven with the Heart of Azerite artifact in this coming expac. Azerite as a resource could even be what Sylvanas is looking for; a cure and escape from undeath..

Actually it was already hinted that the curse of flesh can be liberated already and it is connected with the Ren'dorei.

[huth]

You don't have to give me a deadline because I don't need your three days. Consider it done already even before you started making this post.

"Although the queen was born of the highest noble pedigree, night elves of every social standing adore her."

It wasn't even stated "Although the queen was born *as a Night Elf* of the highest noble pedigree.
Thus the speculation if she was born of the highest noble pedigree and she lineage of being a Night Elf= thus were Dark Trolls...

Because you don't state the obvious. Her being born a Dark Troll would have been notable. Her being born a Night Elf would not.

[vertigo12]

You posted a page from the Chronicles. Good for you! And ironically, it doesn’t mention anything you have claimed this entire thread.

Neither your claims It's draw and tie then.

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Because you don't state the obvious. Her being born a Dark Troll would have been notable. Her being born a Night Elf would not.

Why would you even highlight yourself as someone who was poor if you became rich already? Dark Trolls or being a troll for Night Elves are the thing of the past. They, the now called Night Elves, see being a trolls as something out of the league. If you were Nokia back then and you are IPhone now, do you think it is even worth the time comparing yourself? However, you cannot deny the fact the history behind mobile phones. There wouldn't be any IPhone existing nowadays if Nokia haven't started the cellphone revolution. Heck, cellphones used to be Jurassic back then.So big and walkie-talkie like. I think using this analogy wouldn't be much different with Dark Trolls - Night Elf.

Honestly this topic doesn't state the obvious thus the reason why I'm posting this adamantly and bringing this to the public.

[SoulSoBreezy]

Are you sure? Because based on my understanding of evolution, when a new species is born and there is a noticeable difference between the progeny and the offspring, evolution and mutation take place within that bracket of one generation instantaneously.

Look how Illidan transformed into the first ever Demon Hunter. Wasn't it instantaneous? Or how the satyr and naga came to be? Look at how the orcs turned into the green orcs they are now, with a simple sip of demon's blood they became the way they are. Heck, even if the Warcraft movie scene where Thrall was born is considered canon didn't it happen within minutes? Haven't you notice the effect of the Arcan'dor fruit or how didthe Fal'dorei came to be?

I'm pretty sure, because I'm just reading the words off the page. This isn't one of those cases where if you read between the lines you'll come across a startling revelation.

"These former trolls gradually abandoned their ancient heritage and traditions...The former trolls..." Chronicles pg. 93

It took the Dark Trolls generations to obtain immortality and by then, their society changed entirely. You could hardly call them trolls at that point. The book didn't.

[Marcellus1986]

Neither your claims It's draw and tie then.

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Why would you even highlight yourself as someone who was poor if you became rich already? Dark Trolls or being a troll for Night Elves are the thing of the past. The see trolls as being out of the league. If you were Nokia back then and you are IPhone now, do you think it is even worth the time to compare yourself? However you cannot deny the fact the history behind mobile phones. There wouldn't be any IPhone existing nowadays if Nokia haven't started the cellphone revolution. Heck, cellphones used to be Jurassic back then.So big and walkie-talkie like. I think using this analogy wouldn't be much different with Dark Trolls - Night Elf.

Honestly this topic doesn't state the obvious thus the reason why I'm posting this adamantly and bringing this to the public.

My only claim was that Azshara wasn’t a troll and definitely wasn’t a Zandalari troll, as you tried to prove for the first 10 or so pages.

I’d say Chronicles and WoWpedia back me up perfectly. The onus is still on you to provide concrete evidence, not speculation and conspiracy nonsense.

[therealbowser]

Unless there's lore in Legion I'm unaware of, the first trolls that became elves, likely became such over a generation or two... or, you know, several. It wasn't like "*Zap* You're an elf now", it was likely forced evolution from the well of eternity. If Azshara wasn't already special enough as it is already, and they felt the need to make her 'the first elf', I'd be kind of disgusted with it. I'm hoping that's not the case, personally.

Now whether or not night elves were borne from the dark trolls... well, that's a more interesting topic I'd love to see delved into.

[vertigo12]

Unless there's lore in Legion I'm unaware of, the first trolls that became elves, likely became such over a generation or two... or, you know, several. It wasn't like "*Zap* You're an elf now", it was likely forced evolution from the well of eternity. If Azshara wasn't already special enough as it is already, and they felt the need to make her 'the first elf', I'd be kind of disgusted with it. I'm hoping that's not the case, personally.

Now whether or not night elves were borne from the dark trolls... well, that's a more interesting topic I'd love to see delved into.

If we assume that a generation for Human beings in real life is about 40 years in between, we can somehow guess-timate that their generation could be about 500 yrs. to a millennium. The record about Zin'ashari spans 10k ya before the dark portal to about 15k ya and it coincides with Mogu empire, the Pandaren as well as just 1000 year after the Troll vs. Aqir war which is pretty interesting.

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I'm pretty sure, because I'm just reading the words off the page. This isn't one of those cases where if you read between the lines you'll come across a startling revelation.

"These former trolls gradually abandoned their ancient heritage and traditions...The former trolls..." Chronicles pg. 93

It took the Dark Trolls generations to obtain immortality and by then, their society changed entirely. You could hardly call them trolls at that point. The book didn't.

The formers trolls a.k.a. the Night Elves then Dark Trolls. Their society which is pretty much about animism a.k.a. Wild God or the Loa of the Trolls. The Dark Trolls are absent during the Troll vs. Aqir wars as they are too busy being peaceful AND THEN they beckon the call of the "assumed Elune" calling them to draw near the Well of Eternity, pretty much the cementery of Y'shaarj and the remnants of the Black Empire.

Yeah and *poof* the became Coco Crunch err I mean Night Elves.

Again as an analogy:
Trolls in its entirety, the Zandalari or Empire of Zul = Nokia
The Dark Trolls who became Kal'dorei or Night Elves = IPhone

[huth]

Why would you even highlight yourself as someone who was poor if you became rich already?

Which is all but irrelevant since your quote wasn't written by Azshara's writers, and she therefore had no influence on how she was presented.

The rest isn't even being challenged, so i'm not sure where you're trying to go with that diatribe.

You've still to post your supposed evidence.

[SoulSoBreezy]

If we assume that a generation for Human beings in real life is about 40 years in between, we can somehow guess-timate that their generation could be about 500 yrs. to a millennium. The record about Zin'ashari spans 10k ya before the dark portal to about 15k ya and it coincides with Mogu empire, the Pandaren as well as just 1000 year after the Troll vs. Aqir war which is pretty interesting.

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The formers trolls a.k.a. the Night Elves then Dark Trolls. Their society which is pretty much about animism a.k.a. Wild God or the Loa of the Trolls. The Dark Trolls are absent during the Troll vs. Aqir wars as they are too busy being peaceful AND THEN they beckon the call of the "assumed Elune" calling them to draw near the Well of Eternity, pretty much the cementery of Y'shaarj and the remnants of the Black Empire.

Yeah and *poof* the became Coco Crunch err I mean Night Elves.

Again as an analogy:
Trolls in its entirety, the Zandalari or Empire of Zul = Nokia
The Dark Trolls who became Kal'dorei or Night Elves = IPhone

Well guys I tried, but I can't participate when I'm citing text and the OP is using head canon. See you in the next thread!

[vertigo12]

Allow me to let Chris Metzen explain what Chronicles was meant to be:


...ATTEMPTS to codify,tighten up and clarify..
..a lot of the imagery of prehistory...that we have NEVER SHOWN people before.
.. I GET IT, I GET HOW THIS BEGOT THIS AND THIS CAME FROM HERE, AND THIS TURNED IN HISTORY HAPPENED BECAUSE OF THESE THREE THINGS I NEVER SAW THAT BEFORE.
.. you definitely get that sense that there is a lot of UNFINISHED BUSINESS, there is a lot of conflicts and evil , stirred in the ancient world that MAY YET COME TO PASS in WARCRAFT'S FUTURE.

So Warcraft Chronicle fans and addicts, do you honestly think you are seeing things clearly now as how Chris Metzen was suppose to mean? Have the sight that Sargeras bestowed upon Illidan. He saw everything even before the moment it happened. He HAD VISION.

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Which is all but irrelevant since your quote wasn't written by Azshara's writers, and she therefore had no influence on how she was presented.

The rest isn't even being challenged, so i'm not sure where you're trying to go with that diatribe.

You've still to post your supposed evidence.

Makes it pretty obvious you cannot see which direction the authors are heading. You cannot see how their mind see things as they were.

[huth]

Makes it pretty obvious you cannot see which direction the authors are heading. You cannot see how their mind see things as they were.

Evidence. You've already wasted 3 hours.

[Destinas]

Look how Illidan transformed into the first ever Demon Hunter. Wasn't it instantaneous?

Magic works differently depending on the user and the type of magic. Fel is the most corrupting force in the universe, thus why people can become demons fairly easily. The same isn't said for arcane, where it gradually changed the Night Elves to Nightborne in Suramar.

Or how the satyr and naga came to be?

Xavius was made into a satyr by Sargeras himself. Sargeras took Xavius' soul in the Twisting Nether and shaped it, making him reborn. He then gave Xavius the ability to change others - which is once again fel energy.
Naga came from the magic of an Old God - one of the most powerful lieutenants of the Void Lords. Not nearly the same as arcane or fel at all. There's a difference between exposure and a curse.

Look at how the orcs turned into the green orcs they are now, with a simple sip of demon's blood they became the way they are.

Once again, fel and arcane are different schools of magic.

Heck, even if the Warcraft movie scene where Thrall was born is considered canon didn't it happen within minutes?

The Warcraft film is a separate universe from the WoW game. Thrall's birth was different in the movie, and many other characters have had different origins from the movie to the game. In-game, Thrall was born green, because fel energy gradually corrupted nearly all the orcs on Draenor by simply being near it. In our universe, Gul'dan never corrupted Thrall in order to make sure that he would remain alive - Gul'dan wasn't ever near him in our universe, and Thrall wasn't stillborn in the "main" universe (which is the game). So, no, that's not canon, at all.

Haven't you notice the effect of the Arcan'dor fruit or how did the Fal'dorei came to be?

The Arcan'dor has all the ley lines in Suramar redirected to it, making it very powerful. The Fal'dorei were created by a giant burst of arcane energy at once on Nightborne. Notice how the stable Arcan'dor simply turned the Nightfallen back into Nightborne, and didn't change them into another entirely different race altogether.

[vertigo12]

My only claim was that Azshara wasn’t a troll and definitely wasn’t a Zandalari troll, as you tried to prove for the first 10 or so pages.

I’d say Chronicles and WoWpedia back me up perfectly. The onus is still on you to provide concrete evidence, not speculation and conspiracy nonsense.

If all Night Elves were formerly Dark Trolls, non-admitting and silent as they are, so how would you classify Azshara with your train of thought. Seems like we have a clear winner who is against chronicles 1 after all. *resists myself pointing finger at someone*

[Marcellus1986]

If all Night Elves were formerly Dark Trolls, non-admitting and silent as they are, so how would you classify Azshara with your train of thought. Seems like we have a clear winner who is against chronicles 1 after all. *resists myself pointing finger at someone*

Because being formerly part of something doesn’t make you currently part of it. My ancestors were originally from Ireland and Scotland, but it doesn’t make me Scottish or Irish, which you are trying to imply via your poorly thought out reasoning.

As others stated, she was most likely several generations removed from the initial night elves.

[vertigo12]

Magic works differently depending on the user and the type of magic. Fel is the most corrupting force in the universe, thus why people can become demons fairly easily. The same isn't said for arcane, where it gradually changed the Night Elves to Nightborne in Suramar.

Xavius was made into a satyr by Sargeras himself. Sargeras took Xavius' soul in the Twisting Nether and shaped it, making him reborn. He then gave Xavius the ability to change others - which is once again fel energy.
Naga came from the magic of an Old God - one of the most powerful lieutenants of the Void Lords. Not nearly the same as arcane or fel at all. There's a difference between exposure and a curse.

Once again, fel and arcane are different schools of magic.

The Warcraft film is a separate universe from the WoW game. Thrall's birth was different in the movie, and many other characters have had different origins from the movie to the game. In-game, Thrall was born green, because fel energy gradually corrupted nearly all the orcs on Draenor by simply being near it. In our universe, Gul'dan never corrupted Thrall in order to make sure that he would remain alive - Gul'dan wasn't ever near him in our universe, and Thrall wasn't stillborn in the "main" universe (which is the game). So, no, that's not canon, at all.

The Arcan'dor has all the ley lines in Suramar redirected to it, making it very powerful. The Fal'dorei were created by a giant burst of arcane energy at once on Nightborne. Notice how the stable Arcan'dor simply turned the Nightfallen back into Nightborne, and didn't change them into another entirely different race altogether.

Thank you for enumerating what I've given as example and elaborate on it. So basically magic can have an adverse effect and/or beneficial one. However, magic or arcane can be addictive, that is a fact. This can be observed on how Azshara and her Highborne delved in to arcane magic, delved too deep I would say- such antithesis to what happened to them as they became Naga and drowned down below. Highborne aka Blood Elves are also addicted to magic. So does the Nightborne.

I believe the reason why Nightborne broke free from arcane/magic addiction is because of the Arcan'dor properties. It has life or nature in it to balance the arcane. Druids or the Darnassian Kal'dorei are in affinity with it-nature.