[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Lorgar Aurelian]

It's worse than that; the scenes with Luke and Ben in TLJ make it clear that Luke was still drawn by the Dark Side. Ben had picked up on that, whether consciously or not, which is why he was feeling that temptation as well. Then, seeing Luke lose himself to fear and hate, Ben freaked out and fled, but that message still stuck with him, that image of Luke's strength in the Dark Side. Somewhere, that got twisted into thinking Luke could be stronger, like Vader, if he let himself go, and Kylo's trying to find that path himself.

I'm fairly sure, though this is admittedly prediction, that what they're going for with these films is an integration. A position that states that the Light and Dark cannot be separated, and that it's not possible to truly choose one or the other, without knowing both. The Jedi never did. They feared and hated the Dark Side, and never let themselves experience it, which in the end meant that it was always so simple for a Jedi to give in to temptation and fall. They had not tested themselves, regularly and constantly. Not like Luke did, by parking his butt next to that Dark space. I'm betting there won't BE any final confrontation between Rey and Kylo, leaving Rey the last Force-user standing. I'm betting they both survive, with a wary respect for each other, if not overt friendship. Rey will be the one who lets Kylo see the Light, and Kylo will help Rey get in touch with her Darker impulses, to better control them.

In short, both the Jedi and the Sith will grow the fuck up for once.

That’s really the only way I could see theses movies ending. If rey just kills kylo and ends the sith then the cycle would just repeat with the dark side rising up again and nothing will really have changed.

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Star Wars The Last Jedi might be Fun with friends and family. But if your watching it alone its a overall disappointing mess of a film. Disney should have sticked with the books of Legends EU instead of a rebooted original trilogy with nothing new. Oh I'm still pissed off that Lucasfilm didn't do a Kyle Katarn Movie or Knights of the Old Republic.

Atleast Revan and Kyle is better than Disney's so called New Cannon Characters.

I can’t agree that they should have followed the books as I hate the eu past return of the Jedi. But how do you think they could have done thoses? the books after ROTJ don’t have a huge time jump but the orginal actors are either old or dead.

I do agre they should do old republic stuff though, but I’d rather it be a tv show like the clone wars so they can do a lot more then just a 2 hour movie.

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If you can even call them that.

Kylo and mabye Poe are characters though I haven’t read Poe’s comics. Rey and Finn are well just kinda bland. Finn really has no character other then he’s a coward and doesn’t like the empire. And I can’t think of a single character trait for rey other then she wants to know who her parents are.

[Endus]

I can’t agree that they should have followed the books as I hate the eu past return of the Jedi. But how do you think they could have done thoses? the books after ROTJ don’t have a huge time jump but the orginal actors are either old or dead.

I do agre they should do old republic stuff though, but I’d rather it be a tv show like the clone wars so they can do a lot more then just a 2 hour movie.

Go the other way. We've had plenty of the Old Republic already. Set stuff another 5,000 years in the future. Give yourself plenty of space to write basically whatever. Any myths based on the "modern" era that end up conflicting down the line can be handwaved as poorly remembered elements of myth rather than history.

It's not like much really changed between the Old Republic and the "modern" era other than the political landscape, anyway.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Go the other way. We've had plenty of the Old Republic already. Set stuff another 5,000 years in the future. Give yourself plenty of space to write basically whatever. Any myths based on the "modern" era that end up conflicting down the line can be handwaved as poorly remembered elements of myth rather than history.

It's not like much really changed between the Old Republic and the "modern" era other than the political landscape, anyway.

I can agree with that, ideally I’d want theses movies to lead into new orders of sith and Jedi so we can have future movies with lots o force users.

[Endus]

I can agree with that, ideally I’d want theses movies to lead into new orders of sith and Jedi so we can have future movies with lots o force users.

Or just abandon those creeds completely, and build new ones. There's plenty of room for battling Force users without trying to shoehorn in a childish "Good" vs "Evil" paradigm.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Or just abandon those creeds completely, and build new ones. There's plenty of room for battling Force users without trying to shoehorn in a childish "Good" vs "Evil" paradigm.

I’d think they would use the same names but wouldn’t being the same orders, people remeber the Jedi and sith if they made new movies/shows without thoses names people would probably get confused. I mean I guess rey could remake the Jedi order with the old books but it seems unlikely she would go for the whole emotionless drone thing.

[RobertoCarlos]

Ehhh I wouldnt be so quick to write off good vs evil. Its a staple of star wars DNA that has helped make it into the juggernaut it is today. A global theme and pretty much the basis for the entire films a long with other big themes like self discovery or order and chaos.

[Endus]

Ehhh I wouldnt be so quick to write off good vs evil. Its a staple of star wars DNA that has helped make it into the juggernaut it is today. A global theme and pretty much the basis for the entire films a long with other big themes like self discovery or order and chaos.

A big part of what made KOTOR such a success was highlighting that both Jedi and Sith codes have a valid point to them. That the Jedi aren't all goodness and light, and the Sith aren't all puppy-kicking monsters.

Good and Evil are good plot elements, but you don't need to try and present the sides as cartoonishly archetypal. Especially when you fuck up the "good guys" so badly that they're genocidal nuts who think love is evil.

[zEmini]

Those answers don't contribute to the story being told in the films. They could be meat for some new films set in the 25 years between RotJ and TFA, but they contribute nothing to the current storyline. Which, again, is not about Snoke.



Don't do that.

The OT stood up just fine for 26 years without any backstory for the Emperor. In fact, it's quite arguable that revealing his backstory in the prequels cheapened the character significantly.

The rise of Palpatine and the fall of Anakin is the story of the prequels. It is NOT the story of the OT, and that's why those stories were told separately. You've cited a clear example that disproves your own argument, basically.

If we follow the pattern set by the previous films, we'll get that Snoke backstory. It'll be in another trilogy, set between RotJ and TFA, and we should see the first film in that series in, oh, 2041 or so.

The problem with this is that Snoke needed explanation. Based on the rules of the Sith, they can't exist at teh same time. If that rule needs to be broken, then that should be established somewhere in the movie. How the hell did Snoke rise to power and create the FO out of nothing? Lack of explanation is really just bad story telling. A big powerful character like that needs backstory or else you got a shit plot.

[RobertoCarlos]

A big part of what made KOTOR such a success was highlighting that both Jedi and Sith codes have a valid point to them. That the Jedi aren't all goodness and light, and the Sith aren't all puppy-kicking monsters.

Good and Evil are good plot elements, but you don't need to try and present the sides as cartoonishly archetypal. Especially when you fuck up the "good guys" so badly that they're genocidal nuts who think love is evil.

Thats just having well rounded characters. I mean using examples of the lucas era prequels isnt the best example imo because those films were fundamentally bad from a writing perspective and went into George Lucas fan fic territory. You are right a lot of the stuff the Jedi did didnt make sense. It comes down to how well the characters are crafted and the conflict in the film. No one wants too see the archetypes of polar opposites. Even though the Jedi are very strict and the sith are cartooney evil sometimes you still have characters that come along and blend the two like young obi wan who is quite rebellious with a quick temper. I dont think they need to completely throw out the rule book just make strong characters that are believable and conflicted and their choices are ultimately the deciding factor of what spectrum they fall into

[Endus]

The problem with this is that Snoke needed explanation. Based on the rules of the Sith, they can't exist at teh same time. If that rule needs to be broken, then that should be established somewhere in the movie. How the hell did Snoke rise to power and create the FO out of nothing? Lack of explanation is really just bad story telling. A big powerful character like that needs backstory or else you got a shit plot.

Snoke never identifies himself as Sith, that I recall. He's not "Darth Snoke".

There's more to Force-users than just Jedi and Sith. Snoke could be a strong Dark Force-user who never had any connection to the Sith.

Plus, the "rule of two" wasn't actually a hard-and-fast rule; it was a policy, and there's little reason it couldn't be broken. It was, in the EU, for instance, with the Force Unleashed games; Vader secretly took an apprentice despite still being Palpatine's apprentice himself. While that's non-canon, now, it shows that the "rule of two" was never a strict limit, so claiming it has to be, now, is fairly silly.

Also, Snoke didn't create the First Order out of nothing. They DO explain this. The remnants of the Empire pulled back into hiding after the surrender at Jakku, and eventually rebuilt themselves into the First Order. There's no indication that Snoke was particularly integral, or even around, for any of that. He could easily have latched onto it like a tick, after it was fully-formed.

[RobertoCarlos]

I saw snoke as the guy that ruled the room through fear, nothing more. He was a very intimidating character with clearly high powered force abilities that positioned himself into a position of great strength and ran his shop through intimidation.

Proven by his hold over Hux and how everyone kind of falls in line to serve under the newest most powerful guy around Kylo Ren after snoke falls.

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I do have a question over the film, does anyone know what was up with the scene where finn/rose/del toro steal a dudes ship from the casino planet and they see hes an arms dealer selling weapons to the order then at the end of the slide theres also an x-wing fighter, was that the ship being tracked by the order? or just random bit of info

[Endus]

I do have a question over the film, does anyone know what was up with the scene where finn/rose/del toro steal a dudes ship from the casino planet and they see hes an arms dealer selling weapons to the order then at the end of the slide theres also an x-wing fighter, was that the ship being tracked by the order? or just random bit of info

No, that was proof the arms dealer was ALSO selling X-wings to the Resistance.

That the Resistance was contributing to the arms trade as much as the First Order was, by creating that market demand and then not ensuring its suppliers were ethical actors.

[Jshadowhunter]

Kylo and mabye Poe are characters though I haven’t read Poe’s comics. Rey and Finn are well just kinda bland. Finn really has no character other then he’s a coward and doesn’t like the empire. And I can’t think of a single character trait for rey other then she wants to know who her parents are.

Well, I'll give you that; Poe is the only competent character but unfortunately he triggers the whole "side quest", simply because Leia is an irrational idiot just as much as Admiral Tumblrina.

[RobertoCarlos]

No, that was proof the arms dealer was ALSO selling X-wings to the Resistance.

That the Resistance was contributing to the arms trade as much as the First Order was, by creating that market demand and then not ensuring its suppliers were ethical actors.

Ah makes sense.

The resistance was highly inept in this film. They were pretty much decimated. The worst offense was going to a planet to pick up a master codebreaker with no form of payment other than "the resistance will pay you for it once you're done". Holdo could have told Poe her plans and saved a whole bunch of screen time. But I feel like it sets up for a bigger pay off in the 3rd film so I can forgive its short comings

[Endus]

Ah makes sense.

The resistance was highly inept in this film. They were pretty much decimated. The worst offense was going to a planet to pick up a master codebreaker with no form of payment other than "the resistance will pay you for it once you're done". Holdo could have told Poe her plans and saved a whole bunch of screen time. But I feel like it sets up for a bigger pay off in the 3rd film so I can forgive its short comings

1> It wasn't "the resistance" going to find a codebreaker. It was "Poe and Friends", and the entire point of that was that they were fucking everything up for everyone.
2> Holdo's plan was working perfectly, until Poe and Friends fucked it up.
3> Holdo had no reason to tell Poe her plans;

3A> Poe was just a Captain, not even a Wing Commander. He's not in that part of the chain of command and has no reason to be told high-level plans, in the first place, particularly when they're being kept secret to ensure the enemy doesn't catch wind.
3B> Before you say "but that's silly", I want to note that when Poe and Friends DID find out the secret plan, they immediately leaked it to an unfriendly agent, directly leading to the First Order learning about and foiling the plan. Right there, that's why.
3C> Poe had personally demonstrated his incapacity by screwing up his prior mission so badly, and by ignoring orders, and got his entire bombing wing killed.

[RobertoCarlos]

1> It wasn't "the resistance" going to find a codebreaker. It was "Poe and Friends", and the entire point of that was that they were fucking everything up for everyone.
2> Holdo's plan was working perfectly, until Poe and Friends fucked it up.
3> Holdo had no reason to tell Poe her plans;

3A> Poe was just a Captain, not even a Wing Commander. He's not in that part of the chain of command and has no reason to be told high-level plans, in the first place, particularly when they're being kept secret to ensure the enemy doesn't catch wind.
3B> Before you say "but that's silly", I want to note that when Poe and Friends DID find out the secret plan, they immediately leaked it to an unfriendly agent, directly leading to the First Order learning about and foiling the plan. Right there, that's why.
3C> Poe had personally demonstrated his incapacity by screwing up his prior mission so badly, and by ignoring orders, and got his entire bombing wing killed.

I guess, begs to ask the question why leia/holdo kept/keep him around at all and enjoy his "pep" considering how many causalities he was causing

[Endus]

I guess, begs to ask the question why leia/holdo kept/keep him around at all and enjoy his "pep" considering how many causalities he was causing

Leia kept him around because he'd been a rising star, and she liked him. He fucked up bad, which is why she demoted him, but she was hoping he'd learn from that and become a better officer in the end.

Holdo kept him around out of respect for Leia, and because until he mutinied, he was just mouthing off anyway. And once he'd mutinied, it was too late, and after the mutiny was over, things were happening too fast to worry about it.

He's just a Captain at that point. He's a good pilot, and they need pilots, but he's too hotheaded for command.

[zEmini]

Snoke never identifies himself as Sith, that I recall. He's not "Darth Snoke".

There's more to Force-users than just Jedi and Sith. Snoke could be a strong Dark Force-user who never had any connection to the Sith.

Plus, the "rule of two" wasn't actually a hard-and-fast rule; it was a policy, and there's little reason it couldn't be broken. It was, in the EU, for instance, with the Force Unleashed games; Vader secretly took an apprentice despite still being Palpatine's apprentice himself. While that's non-canon, now, it shows that the "rule of two" was never a strict limit, so claiming it has to be, now, is fairly silly.

Also, Snoke didn't create the First Order out of nothing. They DO explain this. The remnants of the Empire pulled back into hiding after the surrender at Jakku, and eventually rebuilt themselves into the First Order. There's no indication that Snoke was particularly integral, or even around, for any of that. He could easily have latched onto it like a tick, after it was fully-formed.

The big bad villian behind the main villian still needs to be more than a pawn for plot. Star Wars has always been about the Good Jedi versus the Bad Sith/Dark force user/whatever and to have that type of character appear out of thin air by Disney isn't very good story telling. General Hux doesn't need the same level of explaining since we know - as established in the opening crawl - that he is a remnant of the Empire. To think of it, if Snoke was just a Admiral/non force user instead, then I don't think we would have such a problem.

I guess, begs to ask the question why leia/holdo kept/keep him around at all and enjoy his "pep" considering how many causalities he was causing

Just another symptom of bad story telling. Of all the star wars movies, this one took the taco for having the worst plot. But its still better than the prequels in other ways.

[Endus]

The big bad villian behind the main villian still needs to be more than a pawn for plot. Star Wars has always been about the Good Jedi versus the Bad Sith/Dark force user/whatever and to have a character appear out of thin air by Disney isn't very good story telling. General Hux doesn't need the same level of explaining since we know - as established in the opening crawl - that he is a remnant of the Empire.

Again, for the entirety of the Original Trilogy, all we learned about the Emperor was;
1> He's the Emperor. He doesn't need a name.
2> He has lightning hands.
3> Vader's afraid of him. Vader.

That's basically it. We basically already know more about Snoke after two films than we ever knew about Palpatine, from the first three.

[Frogguh]

It would have gone much better for the Resistance if Finn had stayed unconscious until they had already evacuated onto the transports. Thanks for getting the Resistance wiped out, buddy!