Tinker Class Concept 2018 (long)

[Thimagryn]

Because Shaman have like 2 Frost spells, not an entire spec dedicated to Frost.

And also what's the different between Frost and Shadowfrost gameplay-wise? Frost mages have Ebonbolt which is shadow frost, and outside of a damage modifier it works just like any generic Frost spell.

One is Lichy and the other isn't. And Ebonbolt is one spell, so exactly as you said above. It's not an entire spec of Shadowfrost.

[Teriz]

One is Lichy and the other isn't. And Ebonbolt is one spell, so exactly as you said above. It's not an entire spec of Shadowfrost.

No, what I'm saying is that gameplay wise, there isn't a difference between Frost and Shadowfrost beyond the damage modifier. So a ranged caster using shadow frost spells isn't going to feel much different from a ranged caster using frost spells.

[Farrarie]

atleast it will make sence when you play a gnome or a goblin as a mele class

[Fyersing]

This picture, taken alone, is something that I could become excited for; especially in conjunction with something similar to your conception of travel being mechanized (i.e. mounts stored in a pocket-sized, world-shrunken space for easy use). I could even get behind "Warframes" as cooldowns, similar to Metamorphosis or Ascendance.

That said, for me personally, the thought of walking around all of the time in a somewhat ridiculous "Warframe" sounds horrible. Not specifically because of the looks, because a lot of the new "Warframes" are pretty awesome, but because it feels like it cheapens the narrative surrounding their supposed power/throughput when everyone is just rolling around in them all the time and are equally as powerful as anything else -- if you want something to feel and be perceived as being as over-the-top awesome as it's been presented in the narrative thus far, it needs to feel like utilizing it has a direct impact on your power/throughput (which it can't, if it's permanently available). The solution here is simple: "Warframes" should be on a cooldown, but while active provide the player with over-the-top levels of powers.

My two cents, in any case.

Edit: I gave it a little thought. I could probably get behind permanent mechanized suits if they functioned more like Gazlowe's from HotS, instead of Gelbin's from WoW. At least his iteration would allow you to see your gear at all times, as well as less clumsily utilize weapons (in the case of a mDPS, should it exist).

[Wildberry]

No, what I'm saying is that gameplay wise, there isn't a difference between Frost and Shadowfrost beyond the damage modifier. So a ranged caster using shadow frost spells isn't going to feel much different from a ranged caster using frost spells.

Meanwhile, destruction and fire somehow coexist...

[gobio]

Meh, I don't like it, even though I really want to.
I don't think the mech defines a tinker, why should it, too?
Mech heal spec would be bullshit imo.

Well, just relax a little with reference to classes old and new, maybe you could want what you like.

Tinker as a class being mech focused does not mean general tinker in game could do nothing without a mech. This is true for other class as well. MAGE in lore isn't really as restricted by "arcane / fire / frost" but in game they are. These spec are just game mechanics, a subset of what the "class" could really do in game.

Monk in WOW comes from WC3 hero, which has also nothing to do with healing with mist. So in this regard, having tinkers throwing out healing potion or "spray" isn't really that far fetched. But then monk isn't really a very successful class, so I guess you have a point.

[Deleted]

Well, just relax a little with reference to classes old and new, maybe you could want what you like.

Tinker as a class being mech focused does not mean general tinker in game could do nothing without a mech. This is true for other class as well. MAGE in lore isn't really as restricted by "arcane / fire / frost" but in game they are. These spec are just game mechanics, a subset of what the "class" could really do in game.

Monk in WOW comes from WC3 hero, which has also nothing to do with healing with mist. So in this regard, having tinkers throwing out healing potion or "spray" isn't really that far fetched. But then monk isn't really a very successful class, so I guess you have a point.

Yeah, but that's my point. I would LOVE to see Tank Mechs or DD Mechs, hell give it to me, but I'd want me a flexible second off-healer in the heal tinker. How cool would it be to place AoE-Healbots, have a Mercy/Morales-like heal blast and a ranged gun?

The problem with the tinker class as it is, is that there is soooo much freedom in making the class. The tinker in the RPG for example lives through his imagination. He can craft whatever he wants to craft. And while that isn't possible in WoW (obviously) I think you have to consider more tinker class fantasies than just the mekkatorque-esque Mech.
This includes things like:
- Engineering Turret-Tinker
- heal-beam tinker
- electric gun/bow-tinker
- explosive bomb bouncer goblin
- technomagic
- ...

So, what I wanted to express there as I was waking up, typing in a quick shitpost comment, is the variety in spec design the tinker would have to offer. This is no "yeah, demon hunter's third spec would be bs"-thing. This is a "blizz could potentially make 6 specs with that"-thing, which is why so many people want the tinker. It's not linear, and everyone finds his coolness in it.

[Mjolknerd]

Man this forum really needs more posts in threads like this about how a PROFESSION (which is not a playable CLASS at all or even remotely close at all in any way) already covers this theme, and how completely terrible ideas like adding a playable Necromancer class to WOW would be a good idea, or a hunter that is not a hunter but is a hunter and uses void.

So much shitposting on this forum it's absurd, and the people doing it never get banned.

Look people it's okay if you like those other things BUT STOP TALKING ABOUT THEM IN OTHER PEOPLE'S THREADS THAT ARE NOT ABOUT THOSE THINGS. IT IS JUST RUDE AND IN MOST PLACES ONLINE THAT IS CALLED TROLLING AND YOU SHOULD STOP DOING IT.

Back on Topic, good job OP. I don't necessarily agree with your concept of a tinker (I personally don't feel they should be limited to the Gnome/Goblin races, but should more or less be like Monks in that basically every race can be them) but I do think that it is obviously the only real option that Blizzard has left for a new traditional class to be added to the game and that's pretty well thought out.

- - - Updated - - -

So, what I wanted to express there as I was waking up, typing in a quick shitpost comment, is the variety in spec design the tinker would have to offer. This is no "yeah, demon hunter's third spec would be bs"-thing. This is a "blizz could potentially make 6 specs with that"-thing, which is why so many people want the tinker. It's not linear, and everyone finds his coolness in it.

This pretty much says it all, not very eloquently but totally what makes it so weird that some people are just flat out against the idea of a class like this. It's an extremely strong fantasy archetype and there are so many different things they could do with a tinker in WOW.

[Wildberry]

Man this forum really needs more posts in threads like this about how a PROFESSION (which is not a playable CLASS at all or even remotely close at all in any way) already covers this theme, and how completely terrible ideas like adding a playable Necromancer class to WOW would be a good idea

Step 1: Complain about people making "dumb comments"
Step 2: Proceed to make a dumb comment

Neat.

[Deleted]

I don't necessarily agree with your concept of a tinker (I personally don't feel they should be limited to the Gnome/Goblin races, but should more or less be like Monks in that basically every race can be them)

Nah, I have to disagree with you there. Only allowing it to gnomes and goblins would be a shame, but we don't need another monk. The monks are much too broad and some of them don't even make sense.
For tinkers: Night elf tinkers would be flat-out bullshit. Same, but less, with tauren, trolls, all elves, ...
Imo possible would be:
Alliance
Gnomes - Obviously
Dwarves - As described in the RPG ages ago, but also looking at their knack with siege weapons and guns.
Draenei - We have Romuul for that, so why not. If they can build spaceships, why not mechs?
Horde
Goblins - Obviously
Orcs - I don't like it, because of the lack of INT :P But for faction balance and considering their weapon craftsmanship why not
Uh... - Sat here for like 5 minutes and I have no idea for a third one. Tauren and trolls don't show technical interest. The elves are more magic-based, undead are alchemists and not tinkers, hmmm...
Vulpera - I mean, they at least look like they could fit in.

This pretty much says it all, not very eloquently but totally what makes it so weird that some people are just flat out against the idea of a class like this. It's an extremely strong fantasy archetype.

Yeah, sry, not a native speaker. :P
It's also a very strong warcraft archetype. The technological progress of Azeroth is kind of unique in the grand scheme of fantasy worlds.

[Teriz]

Meanwhile, destruction and fire somehow coexist...

Because there's only two of them in two very different classes. Currently, we have Frost Mages and Frost DKs, both using ranged Frost spells, and both having Shadowfrost components within them.

You seriously think we should add a third such specialization into a game where people are already complaining about classes feeling too similar to each other?

- - - Updated - - -

This picture, taken alone, is something that I could become excited for; especially in conjunction with something similar to your conception of travel being mechanized (i.e. mounts stored in a pocket-sized, world-shrunken space for easy use). I could even get behind "Warframes" as cooldowns, similar to Metamorphosis or Ascendance.

That said, for me personally, the thought of walking around all of the time in a somewhat ridiculous "Warframe" sounds horrible. Not specifically because of the looks, because a lot of the new "Warframes" are pretty awesome, but because it feels like it cheapens the narrative surrounding their supposed power/throughput when everyone is just rolling around in them all the time and are equally as powerful as anything else -- if you want something to feel and be perceived as being as over-the-top awesome as it's been presented in the narrative thus far, it needs to feel like utilizing it has a direct impact on your power/throughput (which it can't, if it's permanently available). The solution here is simple: "Warframes" should be on a cooldown, but while active provide the player with over-the-top levels of powers.

My two cents, in any case.

Edit: I gave it a little thought. I could probably get behind permanent mechanized suits if they functioned more like Gazlowe's from HotS, instead of Gelbin's from WoW. At least his iteration would allow you to see your gear at all times, as well as less clumsily utilize weapons (in the case of a mDPS, should it exist).

Yeah, but that's my point. I would LOVE to see Tank Mechs or DD Mechs, hell give it to me, but I'd want me a flexible second off-healer in the heal tinker. How cool would it be to place AoE-Healbots, have a Mercy/Morales-like heal blast and a ranged gun?

The problem with the tinker class as it is, is that there is soooo much freedom in making the class. The tinker in the RPG for example lives through his imagination. He can craft whatever he wants to craft. And while that isn't possible in WoW (obviously) I think you have to consider more tinker class fantasies than just the mekkatorque-esque Mech.
This includes things like:
- Engineering Turret-Tinker
- heal-beam tinker
- electric gun/bow-tinker
- explosive bomb bouncer goblin
- technomagic
- ...

So, what I wanted to express there as I was waking up, typing in a quick shitpost comment, is the variety in spec design the tinker would have to offer. This is no "yeah, demon hunter's third spec would be bs"-thing. This is a "blizz could potentially make 6 specs with that"-thing, which is why so many people want the tinker. It's not linear, and everyone finds his coolness in it.

I agree and somewhat disagree with some of the points brought up above.

I agree with the idea that there's several ways for the Tinker to be implemented. I merely chose this way because I think its the one that makes the class the most distinct and potentially popular. People enjoy the idea of piloting mechs on the battlefield. Just look at how well Blackfuse, the Sky Golem, and Gelbin's mech were received by the community.

With that said, I do think there is potential for a spec set up similar to how old Demonology Warlocks operated where you're in caster form (in this case it would be in pilot form) and you build a resource to enter into the mech form. As you use your weapons, you slowly deplete the resource and you wind up back in pilot form again. I got no problem with that concept, and I actually think it would be a lot of fun to develop and write about. I may even add it to the OP in the future if I ever get through the talent portion of the specs I'm currently writing about...

An alternative to the healing spec could be where you heal in pilot mode, and the mech acts as a cooldown that amplifies your healing for a set amount of time. When the CD ends your back in pilot mode. That was actually my original concept for the medic spec, but I went with full mech because I felt that that set up was too similar to Restoration Druids.

Now, part of the reason I avoided adding more races to this is because I felt that Gnomes and Goblins deserve a little shine. They're by far the most neglected races in the game. Additionally, those races in WoW have by far the most references to mechs of any other race in the game. Both their faction leaders have their own personal mecha. Every prominent Goblin has a shredder. There's mechs throughout Tinkertown and Gnomeregan, and so forth, so those races (IMO) should be the ones who have their own mech class.

Additionally, I avoided adding the claw packs from HotS and WC3 because I don't think they really fit WoW. They've never been shown in-game, and after a great deal of thought, they'd look pretty silly on a player in WoW. It works for MOBAs because of the view, but that probably wouldn't translate well to a MMO format.

Anyway, thanks for the critiques and keep them coming.

[Wildberry]

Because there's only two of them in two very different classes. Currently, we have Frost Mages and Frost DKs, both using ranged Frost spells, and both having Shadowfrost components within them.

So Fire Mages and Destruction Warlocks are very different, but it's absolutely unthinkable to assume that Necromancers and Frost Mages could have mechanical differences separating them?

You seriously think we should add a third such specialization into a game where people are already complaining about classes feeling too similar to each other?

Assuming there's enough room for mechanical distinctions? (Hint: There is) Yes.

You trot out this tired point every time, and every time I have to explain it to you that the "homogenization" complaints come down to mechanics and utility (Energy & Combo Points, Stuns, etc.)

[Deleted]

Man I've never cared much about the Tinker class possibility in Warcraft but damn this post makes it look amazing.

[Teriz]

So Fire Mages and Destruction Warlocks are very different, but it's absolutely unthinkable to assume that Necromancers and Frost Mages could have mechanical differences separating them?

I said they come from two very different classes, which helps separate them. You also seem to be forgetting that ANOTHER Frost spec can't just be different from Frost Mages, it has to be different from Frost DKs as well.

Assuming there's enough room for mechanical distinctions? (Hint: There is) Yes.

You trot out this tired point every time, and every time I have to explain it to you that the "homogenization" complaints come down to mechanics and utility (Energy & Combo Points, Stuns, etc.)

And you really think another spell caster isn't going to be using mana as a resource, and a frost-based spec from this class won't be able to slow and freeze targets with Frost magic?

[Tyrilion]

I thought this was amazing first tinker thread ive wanted to finish, really well thought out, would love for this to gain benifits from the engineering profession. well done man ignore the haters

[Deleted]

Love the idea and loved the tinker in warcraft 3.

[Wildberry]

I said they come from two very different classes, which helps separate them. You also seem to be forgetting that ANOTHER Frost spec can't just be different from Frost Mages, it has to be different from Frost DKs as well.

Considering Frost Death Knights are melee, they're largely irrelevant to the discussion. There's really no big risk of overlap there. And considering you seem to think Fire and Destro are different enough, differentiating another caster with a completely different theme from mages, and vastly different mechanical possibilities shouldn't be difficult.

And you really think another spell caster isn't going to be using mana as a resource, and a frost-based spec from this class won't be able to slow and freeze targets with Frost magic?

Mana as a resource? Probably. Mana as the only resource? Unlikely and unnecessary considering a good chunk of the pitched Necromancer ideas (Yours as well I believe, back when you were honest enough to admit they were possible, before you deleted it), include corpses as the primary interactive resource.

Slowing is a possibility. Considering how many "Frost magic slows" we have, I don't think that's an issue. Freezing is possible, but unnecessary for the spec, imho.

[Dayon]

This thread won me over the moment I saw the commitment to a Goblin/Gnome only class.

[Teriz]

Considering Frost Death Knights are melee, they're largely irrelevant to the discussion. There's really no big risk of overlap there. And considering you seem to think Fire and Destro are different enough, differentiating another caster with a completely different theme from mages, and vastly different mechanical possibilities shouldn't be difficult.

Frost DKs have ranged Frost abilities, so they are relevant to the discussion. Any Lich spec is going to have to also navigate around the fact that DKs have abilities like Chains of Ice, Howling Blast, Glacial Advance, Remorseless Winter, and other spells. Death and Decay will also have to be dealt with as well, since that is traditionally a Lich spell.

Mana as a resource? Probably. Mana as the only resource? Unlikely and unnecessary considering a good chunk of the pitched Necromancer ideas (Yours as well I believe, back when you were honest enough to admit they were possible, before you deleted it), include corpses as the primary interactive resource.

Slowing is a possibility. Considering how many "Frost magic slows" we have, I don't think that's an issue. Freezing is possible, but unnecessary for the spec, imho.

Okay, but the secondary resource is going to be fairly irrelevant here. The only thing the player (and other players) are going to see while playing is another spell caster with frost spells.

[Wildberry]

Frost DKs have ranged Frost abilities, so they are relevant to the discussion.

They do. They're still a melee class, and melee range is required to execute the rotation. That alone is going to differentiate it from any Lich-based Necromancer spec.

Chains of Ice, and Death and Decay, while Lich spells, aren't required for a Lich class. There's nothing lost by a Lich not having Howling Blast, Glacial Advance and Remorseless Winter as those aren't Lich Spells. (I see you're still in the habit of list padding).

Blending minion sacrifice, Lich Transformation, Soul-based abilities, ghosts, etc. in with shadowfrost abilities is one of the more common avenues I've seen for differentiating a Lich spec from both Frosts.

Okay, but the secondary resource is going to be fairly irrelevant here. The only thing the player (and other players) are going to see while playing is another spell caster with frost spells.

The secondary resource isn't irrelevant though. As I've told you countless times, people are sick of mechanical homogeneity. A different secondary resource changes the class dramatically.

If "Another spell caster with frost spells" is something you're seriously worried about (You're not, you're just arguing in bad faith), then there's zero reason for Fire and Destruction to coexist. Honestly, if we're boiling things down to that level, things like Holy Priests and Holy Paladins start blurring together.