Rogue 8.0 Discussion

[telygroar]

What you miss dearly atm :

Outlaw : blunderbluss. Hooo, how you miss this little burst of damage. You miss the little aoe damage/heal too since you do shit on aoe damage. The energy regen is lacking too but its because of the premade char.

Sub : the fucking 30% passive evade § Also you miss the artifact talent.

Assassination : choice poison bomb vs 5 combo at start. Well, its the aim of this

All specs : damage. The change for ap damage vs weapon damage need some more probing we're here for this !

EDIT : yes sub keep the 2 charges of shs.

like i said in the previous post (this one), yes. And it need tuning.

[Deleted]

So weapon dmg is obsolet now for Assa?

[Varolyn]

So weapon dmg is obsolet now for Assa?

It has been almost obsolete for the entirety of Legion, but it appears it will be obsolete for both sub, and along with other melee as well.

[RobertoCarlos]

Not a fan if thats true.

I like that melee get a benefit out of weapon damage. Just like casters get a boost out of spell power.

Why do they want to remove all RPG elements from an MMORPG?

[Varolyn]

Not a fan if thats true.

I like that melee get a benefit out of weapon damage. Just like casters get a boost out of spell power.

Why do you they want to remove all RPG elements from an MMORPG?

If they give melee weapons a high amount of agi just like how caster weps get a lot of int, I don't think it should be too much of an issue.

[RobertoCarlos]

If they give melee weapons a high amount of agi just like how caster weps get a lot of int, I don't think it should be too much of an issue.

Yeah sure, its just numbers at the end of the day.

It doesnt feel good though. Imagine back in Vanilla finally getting misplaced servo arm or corehound tooth and its the exact same dps just more agility. That is boring for a RPG. They are slowly removing everything that isnt in your face obvious. Instead of weapon speed/ weapon damage as well we only get agility - mastery,haste,crit,vers. Yay?

[Varolyn]

I guess it depends on what melee spec you play. But as an assassination rogue, and I imagine the same for unholy dks and ferals, this change really won't have a noticeable impact.

[Lucavian]

Monks be like, "Blizz we don't scale very well like other classes since all of our stuff is attack power based." Blizzard does the only reasonable thing, changes everyone else!

[shoegazing]

It's worth noting that blizzard still designs for pve first and foremost, and then pvp. Your worldview doesn't encompass or allow for pve, and so you're mortally offended when they take this spec that you worship (you should hear yourself) and implement their designs. You are (amazingly) still butthurt about legion.

The best answer to your hurt feelings is that they implemented a policy across all classes and specs to increase the contrast between them all. This lead to survival hunters and outlaw rogues(among many other things). It also led to poisons being assination only, and sub's abilities becoming more shadow/stealth-focused. This policy is still in place and being refined. You won't get crippling poison back no matter how much you get on your knees.

You can't sit there and tell me that you don't get CCed when you dance, maybe not everytime of course, but you're not perfect. Awareness of your surroundings doesn't extend to watching someone press the "stun" button on their keyboard. In a controlled pvp environment, you might know when/if they've used stuns. And i don't pvp, i havn't done it since i got glad in s1 and s3. It's a waste of my time, and the arena system is abhorrent. The game is not built for pvp first - any balancing issues were fucked because of pve. Evidenced by the extremes they went to in legion with the pvp templates.

As for gouge - Please explain to me o god of pvp, how a 3 second disorient lets you escape long enough for a re-stealth. Anyone with one hand up their ass and one on their keyboard will be able to keep you in combat. You gouge to setup for cyclones? understandable. Reduces counterable time. How often are you able to use gouge effectively in a multi-player pvp environment? are your teammates that dialed in to whatever you're doing at all times? If so, bravo. It's still a 3 second disorient that is easily broken by damage and irrelevant for pve content. It would also be a wasted pvp talent. There are more important things.


We've been on this merry-go-round before, iirc people on here shouted you down because you're an elitist who feels that the sub spec should be left to pvpers only, and that pve has ruined your precious game, and anyone who disagrees with anything you say is wrong because you say you're right. And nothing has changed since then. How do you fit your head through your front door?

I did not say that PvE cannot exist I said that PvE benefits do not justify changes which ruin the most legendary and iconic PvP spec and class of all time.

I have nothing against PvE, I was a raider for years. I have everything against the small group of elitist PvE players who insist that PvP does not matter at all, those jerks who are so greedy that having 2/3 great Rogue PvE specs isn't enough, they need to ruin the greatest PvP spec in WoW history so that it can be theirs too. These people are the elitist jerks. All I want is to continue loving the spec that I have played since 2004.

And for the love of god, nobody cares that you were a Gladiator 10 years ago so why do you always mention that fact in every single argument about PvP? Nobody cares. I'm a BC glad also but you don't see me bringing it up in every discussion, because it doesn't mean anything at all. What have you done in PvP since then? Absolutely nothing, that's what. You have no idea at all what you are talking about so you would do well to keep your completely ignorant and uninformed by experience opinion to yourself.

Oh btw 1. apply shiv snare 2. gouge 3. get to LoS. If you don't have gouge in that situation you just get spammed with Chains of Ice, Slow, or any host of other abilities which prevent you from getting away. Gouge is actually an amazing ability and you're completely ignorant if you think it would be a wasted PvP talent. Would it be used by RMP/RMD? lol no. Would it be used by other Rogue comps like RPS, dancing with the stars, or smokebomb cleave? Uh, yes, rofl. Gouge is an amazing and useful ability in a variety of situations (great for baiting zerker from a warrior when you want to fear them, to name 1 example randomly off the top of my head), and only the ignorant and inexperienced would suggest otherwise.

As for getting CC'd in my Dance, of course nobody plays perfectly but on the rare occasion where I do get outplayed I give respect to the other player for capitalizing on my failure to cover Dance properly. Only noobs run to the forums to cry "oh no I got CCd on my Dance this spec is designed badly!" Go play another spec then. There are dozens of others which aren't so reliant on burst windows. That has been the identity of Subtlety PvP for a very long time, it's what the spec is all about. I've never once cried about that and anyone who has ought to be ashamed of themselves. I think it was awesome, fun, and unique, and there are tons of people who agree with me, and none of us deserved to lose our spec just so that the rest of you could get a 3rd one to play that's more homogenized and similar to all the other specs in the game.

[Mafic]

How can outlaw without curse of the dreadblades and loaded dice as a talent be amazing? Genuinely curious.

Probably amazing to watch compared to paint drying in the background haha?

- - - Updated - - -

shoegazing's tone may need some work but i do sympathize with him.

The legion spec reworks was a case of too much at once and they missed the mark. Some turned out alright but I wouldnt consider the rogue class in general in that bracket.

They gutted our toolkit so we could get 7 different spells with shadow in the name for the sake of class "diversity"

Rogue tool kit took the biggest hit and yet Blizz feels the need to keep nerfing Feint and CloS. Hint, maybe unprune the tool kit so Rogues don't rely on Feint and CloS so much? o.O

[RobertoCarlos]

Rogue tool kit took the biggest hit and yet Blizz feels the need to keep nerfing Feint and CloS. Hint, maybe unprune the tool kit so Rogues don't rely on Feint and CloS so much? o.O

Losing gouge and poisons were the biggest offenders. Picking out outlaw for gouge and assassin for poisons was kind of random. What about my fantasy of using poisons and being a shady rogue blizz? I dont want to be a pirate.

[Varolyn]

Losing gouge and poisons were the biggest offenders. Picking out outlaw for gouge and assassin for poisons was kind of random. What about my fantasy of using poisons and being a shady rogue blizz? I dont want to be a pirate.

I think blizz could at least give sub and outlaw wound and crippling poison back. Wound isn't used at all by assassination, so the other two specs might as well get to use it. I don't care that much about gouge for assassination, but I'm all for it if dirty tricks returns as a talent. I was more upset about blind being gone for assassin, but was relieved to see that blizz had finally given it back.

[shaunika123]

Losing gouge and poisons were the biggest offenders. Picking out outlaw for gouge and assassin for poisons was kind of random. What about my fantasy of using poisons and being a shady rogue blizz? I dont want to be a pirate.

I dont really get this whole obsession with crippling poison for the other two specs.

the problem isnt that sub doesnt have crippling poison, the problem is that the alternative we got sucks balls.

if we for example, got waylay back, or any other form of slow not tied to a maintenance finisher, it'd be fine.

it's not random at all, poison's have always been an assa thing really. at least they got the biggest value out of it always.

[RobertoCarlos]

I dont really get this whole obsession with crippling poison for the other two specs.

the problem isnt that sub doesnt have crippling poison, the problem is that the alternative we got sucks balls.

if we for example, got waylay back, or any other form of slow not tied to a maintenance finisher, it'd be fine.

it's not random at all, poison's have always been an assa thing really. at least they got the biggest value out of it always.

Poisons were part of the reason I made a rogue all those years ago in the first place. I know its just a silly slow movement debuff which could be changed to anything but I like the idea of using poisons as a rogue.

Kinda lame blizz just change it up for shits n giggles

[delus]

remove roll the bones.
remove roll the bones.
remove roll the bones.
How many people have to say it Blizzard?!

When Blizzard really sets their heart on something there is no reasoning.

[Naiattavain]

rogue needs a polished, comprehensive spell book with a level of complexity towards rotations given though its easy to pick up and learn. demonstrating the rogues mastery should take a while. time spent in learning rotations should be at a casual level with mythic scaling to builds. a build is a finalized gear selection and rotational set combined. once the player makes a build it should be ready out of questing phase to start raiding. towards the end of the expansion the raid build the rogue has completed should be good grounds for questing next expansion. this is how it traditionally worked.

[shaunika123]

Poisons were part of the reason I made a rogue all those years ago in the first place. I know its just a silly slow movement debuff which could be changed to anything but I like the idea of using poisons as a rogue.

Kinda lame blizz just change it up for shits n giggles

yeah but back then, they kinda had a point, with how you crafted them, or how there were like 8 different kinds of poisons.

by the time it got removed sub had the option of one utility poison and two damage poison, and the choice was always 100% clear.

they lost any and all identity for sub they had before.

[RobertoCarlos]

yeah but back then, they kinda had a point, with how you crafted them, or how there were like 8 different kinds of poisons.

by the time it got removed sub had the option of one utility poison and two damage poison, and the choice was always 100% clear.

they lost any and all identity for sub they had before.

It certainly made it easier pointing out the scrub lord rogues when they would let their poisons drop off and not notice.

I'm just not a fan of the class reworks. The specs have gone backwards in my eyes rather than forward.

Im not a believer in less is more. less is just less.

[shaunika123]

It certainly made it easier pointing out the scrub lord rogues when they would let their poisons drop off and not notice.

I'm just not a fan of the class reworks. The specs have gone backwards in my eyes rather than forward.

Im not a believer in less is more. less is just less.

honestly, I'm really on the fence about the reworks, because on one hand from a pve standpoint at least 2 specs received major improvements (personally I think outlaw is better than combat but that's kindof a controversial topic)

the pve rotations are much more versatile and engaging, especially how much better they are to play in dungeons, but raids also.

the problem is that they killed every other good part of it outside of raiding, and it wasnt exactly a tradeoff because one didnt have to die for the other to live.

they just flat out removed stuff not used in pve and heavily used in pvp/outdoor etc.

so yeah, the spec reworks are kinda the equivalent of rescuing a pig from a fire, but then cooking it anyway.

with outdoor pvp coming back as a feature of BFA, I sincerely hope we get gouge back for all 3 specs just on a higher cooldown.

[RobertoCarlos]

honestly, I'm really on the fence about the reworks, because on one hand from a pve standpoint at least 2 specs received major improvements (personally I think outlaw is better than combat but that's kindof a controversial topic)

the pve rotations are much more versatile and engaging, especially how much better they are to play in dungeons, but raids also.

the problem is that they killed every other good part of it outside of raiding, and it wasnt exactly a tradeoff because one didnt have to die for the other to live.

they just flat out removed stuff not used in pve and heavily used in pvp/outdoor etc.

so yeah, the spec reworks are kinda the equivalent of rescuing a pig from a fire, but then cooking it anyway.

with outdoor pvp coming back as a feature of BFA, I sincerely hope we get gouge back for all 3 specs just on a higher cooldown.

I can see what you're saying with combat. It was literally just get hit cap then spam sinister strike, evis and refresh slice n dice/rupture and repeat. It peaked in MoP with assurance of consequences trinket though that sped up the cooldowns and gave the spec a nice flow. Plus massive haste made it even better.

I wouldnt say the pve rotations are much different now though. I mean sure sub can be tricky at times maximizing the specs full potential. But assassin and outlaw you can play with your eyes closed and do well.