Making an argument based on other people's bias

[Gouky]

I didn't realize this was an argument.

Living or understanding other people's lives is what makes you empathic.

I have no idea about your combination strawman/red herring. That's all you. Do you know how arguments work?

You don't need to live other people lives to understand
Well how am I wrong then?

[belfpala]

You don't need to live other people lives to understand
Well how am I wrong then?

First, you'll note that my actual words were:

Living or understanding other people's lives is what makes you empathic.

So you ignored the conditional and skipped the conclusion. And you accuse me of not knowing how arguments work?

Also, we're not even discussing the original topic, which is that it's fine to change your opinion or view given new information.

Cool, see you on the other side.

[Deldavala]

Your first mistake is assuming the general populus is rational

[Gouky]

First, you'll note that my actual words were:



So you ignored the conditional and skipped the conclusion. And you accuse me of not knowing how arguments work?

Also, we're not even discussing the original topic, which is that it's fine to change your opinion or view given new information.

Cool, see you on the other side.

Because empathy has nothing to do with rationality and there is no point in arguing it.
I skipped it, because it's nonsense.

[Kaleredar]

So taking guns away from everyone, because criminals kill people is Logical?
Your argument is either valid or not, something happening to you is irrelevant.

Don't put words in my mouth, kthanx

- - - Updated - - -

Because empathy has nothing to do with rationality and there is no point in arguing it.
I skipped it, because it's nonsense.

Your "rationality" is limited to "that's the way we've always done it."

You don't have a very high platform to stand on, there, especially when it's proven that your method of reasoning (the "do nothing" approach) just leads to more innocent people murdered.

So we have your method, which has proven to not work, compared to the methods adopted by other first world countries in their laws regarding gun regulation, which HAVE worked.

Your viewpoint is looking mighty irrational right now.

[Doctor Amadeus]

I am against taking guns away or more gun control for the sake of our children. That being said, I don't think an emotional argument is invalid. It doesn't make it valid either. But to ignore that emotions matter for sure is a mistake.

Because it's a proper measure of how society and a community feel about an issue, and that more than anything written on a piece of paper matters, maybe it shouldn't that is for another debate.

But it does, personally I think when an emotional argument that's coupled with one against greater harm, it can be the best argument to have. Nobody cares what a robot thinks.

[Gouky]

Don't put words in my mouth, kthanx

- - - Updated - - -



Your "rationality" is limited to "that's the way we've always done it."

You don't have a very high platform to stand on, there, especially when it's proven that your method of reasoning (the "do nothing" approach) just leads to more innocent people murdered.

So we have your method, which has proven to not work, compared to the methods adopted by other first world countries in their laws regarding gun regulation, which HAVE worked.

Your viewpoint is looking mighty irrational right now.

Well the problem with your argument is thinking that 2nd amendment is there for people to kill other people with guns.

It's true that if you want to reduce GUN related deaths you take away the GUNs.
But if you apply this logic universally, that is were it falls apart.
Men for example commit most murders . By your logic it is very simple to reduce murders to almost 0

Not exactly worked out for Europe

[Kaleredar]

Well the problem with your argument is thinking that 2nd amendment is there for people to kill other people with guns.

It's true that if you want to reduce GUN related deaths you take away the GUNs.
But if you apply this logic universally, that is were it falls apart.
Men for example commit most murders . By your logic it is very simple to reduce murders to almost 0

Not exactly worked out for Europe

...except murders by firearms are far, far higher in the united states than they are in Europe. Moreover, you're vastly more likely to be murdered by some fellow American with a gun than you are to be killed in a terrorist attack.


You can try and hem and haw and say why your method of reasoning should work, but at the end of the day it very clearly does not. No explanation of how your approach is "perfect" and "the best" holds any water when all it does in reality is... not work.

[Gouky]

...except murders by firearms are far, far higher in the united states than they are in Europe. Moreover, you're vastly more likely to be murdered by some fellow American with a gun than you are to be killed in a terrorist attack.


You can try and hem and haw and say why your method of reasoning should work, but at the end of the day it very clearly does not. No explanation of how your approach is "perfect" and "the best" holds any water when all it does in reality is... not work.

Well if that is the case why army is patrolling the streets in Europe with GUNs? And why don't the European army disarm it self
Just show them the statistics

BTW Current Florida shooter was from Single Mother Household.
And there is 70% chance that children from Single Mother Household will be criminals.
Why not address that.

[s_bushido]

You never considered that people can hold a stupid position until something happens that makes them realize how stupid that position was? Strange.

"Abortion is murder. Oh, wait. My daughter just got raped and is now pregnant by her rapist. I guess abortion isn't so bad after all."
"Homosexuality is a sin. Oh, wait. My daughter, who I accepted for decades as a normal, decent person came out to me as gay. I guess homosexuality isn't so bad after all."

Seems pretty simple to me.

[Deleted]

Not exactly worked out for Europe

Gun Homicides in US around 8000 per year.

Gun Homicides in France 150 per year.

But hey there's a picture of a guy with gun standing next to the Eiffel tower-so French policy must not be working out.

[Gouky]

You never considered that people can hold a stupid position until something happens that makes them realize how stupid that position was? Strange.

"Abortion is murder. Oh, wait. My daughter just got raped and is now pregnant by her rapist. I guess abortion isn't so bad after all."
"Homosexuality is a sin. Oh, wait. My daughter, who I accepted for decades as a normal, decent person came out to me as gay. I guess homosexuality isn't so bad after all."

Seems pretty simple to me.

Well depends on how good your original argument was, I think homosexuality is not optimal.
And Abortion is case of rape is less then 1% of cases ... .

So how exactly just because majority supports something makes it accurate?

- - - Updated - - -

Gun Homicides in US around 8000 per year.

Gun Homicides in France 150 per year.

But hey there's a picture of a guy with gun standing next to the Eiffel tower-so French policy must not be working out.

So why are they patrolling with Assault rifles again?

[Ghostpanther]

There is a good reason the Founding Fathers saw the need to make any amendments to the Constitution a more difficult and specific process for approval than one based on the emotional swings of the population.

[Deleted]

Because empathy has nothing to do with rationality and there is no point in arguing it.
I skipped it, because it's nonsense.

Do you just take words and flap them together like the manatees in South Park?

[Witchblade77]

for the same reason people go vehemently anti-vax after their child experiences negative side effects. no i'm not talking about autism. there is actual small chance for adverse reaction to vaccines that comes with variety of symptoms, that is listed by the manufacturer and all. its a smaller chance then negative side effects from common medications like pain killers, etc, but it DOES exist. and even though the chance is incredibly small compared to benefits? guess what? people STILL react emotionally becasue they were affected personaly.

its human nature.

sometimes.. those human reactions are for the better. like when someone who is vehemently anti lgbt, changes their stance due to a close relative or a child coming out. sometimes they are for the worse, and you get anti vax movement. and sometimes you get "ban all guns"

P.S. whenever gun specific violence statistics get brought up, what I wonder about is.. was violence overall reduced? was death rate? and even though, controversial opinion and all, but I'm starting to think that majority of american public is neither mature, nor responsible enough to be allowed around any kind of dangerous tools. be it guns, power tools or cars. given our rates of deadly occurrences because someone did something they shouldn't have.

[Najnaj]

Well if that is the case why army is patrolling the streets in Europe with GUNs? And why don't the European army disarm it self
Just show them the statistics

BTW Current Florida shooter was from Single Mother Household.
And there is 70% chance that children from Single Mother Household will be criminals.
Why not address that.

Every single thing you say here is either incorrect, pointless or outright wrong.

1. Streets of Europe...means exactly what? Illustrating this with an undated snapshot of (arguably) the highest value targets on the entire continent is not an honest way of debating.

2. 70% of children from single mother households are not criminals unless you cherry-pick the groupings, data and definitions.

3. There is no "European Army" and for all purposes of this discussion they are disarmed. With few exceptions, firearms are taken away after exercise or active patrolling. There are very few instances where a soldier would put his firearms in a drawer next to his bed.

[Ghostpanther]

P.S. whenever gun specific violence statistics get brought up, what I wonder about is.. was violence overall reduced? was death rate? and even though, controversial opinion and all, but I'm starting to think that majority of american public is neither mature, nor responsible enough to be allowed around any kind of dangerous tools. be it guns, power tools or cars. given our rates of deadly occurrences because someone did something they shouldn't have.

Yes it has been in the US. Been on the decline since the 1990's. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_..._United_States

[Deleted]

Because when most of us are faced with reality of some things, it becomes less important what some statistic or graph tells us, because you are suddenly part of that statistic and that means you have an incentive to prevent others from joining it, because you know what the feelings are that said person will have to go through.

[Najnaj]

for the same reason people go vehemently anti-vax after their child experiences negative side effects. no i'm not talking about autism. there is actual small chance for adverse reaction to vaccines that comes with variety of symptoms, that is listed by the manufacturer and all. its a smaller chance then negative side effects from common medications like pain killers, etc, but it DOES exist. and even though the chance is incredibly small compared to benefits? guess what? people STILL react emotionally becasue they were affected personaly.

its human nature.

sometimes.. those human reactions are for the better. like when someone who is vehemently anti lgbt, changes their stance due to a close relative or a child coming out. sometimes they are for the worse, and you get anti vax movement. and sometimes you get "ban all guns"

P.S. whenever gun specific violence statistics get brought up, what I wonder about is.. was violence overall reduced? was death rate? and even though, controversial opinion and all, but I'm starting to think that majority of american public is neither mature, nor responsible enough to be allowed around any kind of dangerous tools. be it guns, power tools or cars. given our rates of deadly occurrences because someone did something they shouldn't have.

Over all death rates from crime are reduced. People like to make comparisons to knives and how they can kill people too with is technically correct...however. Killing someone with a gun vs a knife is a VERY different crime. The statistics of gun deaths have little correlation with other types of killings. Comparing gun violence to knife violence is a little like comparing knife killings to poison killings. Besides the end result, the 2 have virtually nothing in common and not finding botulin is unlikely to make you grab a bread knife and go on a knifing spree.

[Witchblade77]

Over all death rates from crime are reduced. People like to make comparisons to knives and how they can kill people too with is technically correct...however. Killing someone with a gun vs a knife is a VERY different crime. The statistics of gun deaths have little correlation with other types of killings. Comparing gun violence to knife violence is a little like comparing knife killings to poison killings. Besides the end result, the 2 have virtually nothing in common and not finding botulin is unlikely to make you grab a bread knife and go on a knifing spree.

its an act of often deadly violence. at least some of the time against multiple people, with often the same motivations and the main difference being acess or lack of there of to other weapons. mass stabbings ARE actualy a thing that happens. the reason I bring it up is because i don't think we are fixing an underlying issue. also... biggest problem with gun control in US, is that existing measures are already not being enforced properly, and then there is a matter of fbi outright ignoring the reports. underlying issue. (that and trying to outright disarm the population of US is ... a daunting task to put it mildly). slightly less deadly violence is STILL deadly violence. when someone disgruntled drives into a crowd of people trying to hit as many as possible and killing at least several. does it honestly make their death any better, just becasue they didn't happen from a gun?

as far as violence goes, I read a fantastic article the other day. https://www.rd.com/advice/parenting/...ying-strategy/ becasue what we DO need to do is work on fixing the causes. not merely symptoms.