The Old God and the Sea

[Larynx]

All mindcontrol, corruption, and madness is a form of assimilation. But you can just call it corruption if you like. It's the same mind tendrils and telepathic whispers being plugged into your brain either way.

That isn't a meaningful response. The Curse of Flesh facilitated assimilation by subverting Titan directives. This does not apply to Faceless minions. Additionally, mortality/The Curse of Flesh is almost the exact opposite of the Faceless "hollow husk" idea: "it gave rise to mortal qualities of necessity: courage, resolve, and heroism" per Chronicles. They became individual people, and that left them vulnerable to corruption. Are Faceless husks or people?

And at any rate, I'm not arguing word choice. Call it assimilation, mind control, corruption, whatever, the Curse of Flesh is still a wholly different scenario from assimilating other Old God minions. We already know Old Gods corrupt, so it's not like this assimilation process is a big revelation either.

[KrakHed]

I love the Old Gods and Lovecraft as much as the next guy, especially speculating about it, but I think what you're saying may be an attempt to pass it off as canon information. Using one mob's interaction with two different OGs to establish and sensationalize this theory is a bit too far, though. We just don't know as much to say that like it's confirmed.

I think we need more info from BFA to know more. If they tell more of the story, that is. Fingers crossed.

I'm using my understanding of the genre, Blizzard's inspirations, and knowledge of how Old Gods work and pointing out what is implied. You may have noticed that Old Gods are psychic, that they directly link with and whisper to their "followers" until they're permanently changed by it and infused with the essence of the God. A Faceless One has never existed, for even one moment since its birth, without that psychic link/"whispers" from their God.

In effect, they're merely extensions of the will of their god. They do not have personal ambition.

That isn't a meaningful response. The Curse of Flesh facilitated assimilation by subverting Titan directives. This does not apply to Faceless minions. Additionally, mortality/The Curse of Flesh is almost the exact opposite of the Faceless "hollow husk" idea: "it gave rise to mortal qualities of necessity: courage, resolve, and heroism" per Chronicles. They became individual people, and that left them vulnerable to corruption. Are Faceless husks or people?

And at any rate, I'm not arguing word choice. Call it assimilation, mind control, corruption, whatever, the Curse of Flesh is still a wholly different scenario from assimilating other Old God minions. We already know Old Gods corrupt, so it's not like this assimilation process is a big revelation either.

And who mentioned the Curse of Flesh? Who said anything about revelations? It's a psychic squid picking up the telepathically commanded drone of another God after it was abandoned.

[Larynx]

And who mentioned the Curse of Flesh?

I did in the content of the post you replied to... I even made it bold so it was hard to miss...

[Aquamonkey]

Wow! Different hives of ants kill and attack one another!? SURPRISING! UNPRECEDENTED!

But have you noticed that their own armies, the armies under each single god, don't turn on themselves except in the most extreme despite being creatures of self-serving madness and chaos?

You claimed the Old Gods were designed as hiveminds. They clearly aren't as each has its own distinct personality and they fight each other.

If you're talking about OGs with their creations that's still not true. The Prophecy of C'Thun clearly states the Qirari were sentient. And we see that Faceless and various other minions of the OGs are sapient with distinct personalities.

Also, Chronicle depicts a clear hierarchical structure to the Black Empire. N'raqi commanded the aqir. Both were stated to be fanatically loyal.

[KrakHed]

I did in the content of the post you replied to... I even made it bold so it was hard to miss...

It had nothing to do with the conversation, except the words you picked up on.

You claimed the Old Gods were designed as hiveminds. They clearly aren't as each has its own distinct personality and they fight each other.

If you're talking about OGs with their creations that's still not true. The Prophecy of C'Thun clearly states the Qirari were sentient. And we see that Faceless and various other minions of the OGs are sapient with distinct personalities.

Also, Chronicle depicts a clear hierarchical structure to the Black Empire. N'raqi commanded the aqir. Both were stated to be fanatically loyal.

Let me explain, since you seem to be misunderstanding me. Old Gods are hiveminds, plural. One colony wars with another.

Secondly, it's indeed true that the servants of the Old Gods have distinct personalities. I never said otherwise. Hiveminds are sometimes depicted as only having one overarching personality, but Blizzard's depictions of Hiveminds have never been that. They have been many personalities, but all bound in absolute service and devotion to the same will. That is how we have numerous examples of Old God "Avatars" who nonetheless carry different names than their God and refer to their God in third person.

As an Avatar, they are by nature a manifestation of their God, but in behavior they are semi-independent entities with a separate identity. And the example of Ju'ngo is unambiguously described as an avatar.

And of course Chronicles depicts a clear hierarchy. Hives have hierarchies. And of course they're loyal. The Void may be backstabbingly selfish, but you don't backstab yourself. In a hive, all members are a part of the greater organism that is the hive. All their differences contributing to that greater whole.

In many stories, hiveminds are depicted as having multiple commanders under the primary guiding intelligence, who may have yet other commanders under that, yet they all remain extensions of the primary intelligence. Blizzard has done the same in their own stories.

[Larynx]

It had nothing to do with the conversation, except the words you picked up on.

The conversation was about evidence for assimilation by Old Gods. The only time that concept has ever been used was in my example. I was commenting on that fact as it was the only inspiration for the theory I could come up with. Jesus Christ you are dense.

[KrakHed]

The conversation was about evidence for assimilation by Old Gods. The only time that concept has ever been used was in my example. I was commenting on that fact. Jesus Christ you are dense.

I understood the point you were trying to make, and I found it to be stupid semantics. Old Gods assimilating things comes up every time they appear. What do you think the Emerald Nightmare is? It's them converting the things in the Emerald Nightmare to their side and remaking it in their image. Assimilating it.

Call it corruption if you like, but they use corruption to assimilate other forces into their own and to place them under their thrall. Often with resulting mutations that make the "corrupted" more like the Old Gods and more like the Void. In short. Assimilation.

They remake other things into things more like themselves and add them into their own forces, under their psychic control.

[Aquamonkey]

Secondly, it's indeed true that the servants of the Old Gods have distinct personalities. I never said otherwise. Hiveminds are sometimes depicted as only having one overarching personality, but Blizzard's depictions of Hiveminds have never been that. They have been many personalities, but all bound in absolute service and devotion to the same will. That is how we have numerous examples of Old God "Avatars" who nonetheless carry different names than their God and refer to their God in third person.

As an Avatar, they are by nature a manifestation of their God, but in behavior they are semi-independent entities with a separate identity. And the example of Ju'ngo is unambiguously described as an avatar.

And of course Chronicles depicts a clear hierarchy. Hives have hierarchies. And of course they're loyal. The Void may be backstabbingly selfish, but you don't backstab yourself. In a hive, all members are a part of the greater organism that is the hive. All their differences contributing to that greater whole.

In many stories, hiveminds are depicted as having multiple commanders under the primary guiding intelligence, who may have yet other commanders under that, yet they all remain extensions of the primary intelligence. Blizzard has done the same in their own stories.

That's not a hivemind. Distinct identities means it's not a hivemind.

Also, Blizzard literally said they don't operate as a hive mind.

The Mantid are an intelligent and highly evolved race of insect-like creatures who have menaced the people of Pandaria since prehistoric times. While their society has a queen, they don't operate as a hive mind. (Source)

[KrakHed]

That's not a hivemind. Blizzard literally said they don't operate as a hive mind.

The Mantid are an intelligent and highly evolved race of insect-like creatures who have menaced the people of Pandaria since prehistoric times. While their society has a queen, they don't operate as a hive mind. (Source)

Not any longer, sure. Y'Shaarj hasn't been plugged into their brains for a long, long time. However, the immature Mantid still behave as a hive.

[Enkrypt]

I understood the point you were trying to make, and I found it to be stupid semantics. Old Gods assimilating things comes up every time they appear. What do you think the Emerald Nightmare is? It's them converting the things in the Emerald Nightmare to their side and remaking it in their image. Assimilating it.

Call it corruption if you like, but they use corruption to assimilate other forces into their own and to place them under their thrall. Often with resulting mutations that make the "corrupted" more like the Old Gods and more like the Void. In short. Assimilation.

They remake other things into things more like themselves and add them into their own forces, under their psychic control.

Actually, you're changing what you originally said. You said:

You misunderstand me. Faceless Ones have very clear loyalties. But one without a God is just a meat husk for any random God to fill. Loyalties can be transferred. One things Old Gods do well is assimilate the forces of others.

You're claiming a couple of questionable things here that I don't think are as clear and obvious as stated. However, the one I'm focused on is the last sentence. The one about OGs assimilating the forces of other OGs "well", as if to imply they do it often or frequently, or have so in the past. In all the information I've read concerning OGs, I don't recall any incident or event where one OG assimilated the army or forces of another OG even once, let alone enough times to do it well, as you described.

And yet now, you're changing your story a bit, saying they assimilate... everything? Even reality? Isn't the Emerald Nightmare a corrupt emulation of the Emerald Dream? I don't think that's a fitting description or motive for the Emerald Nightmare. I don't know, but, corruption something doesn't automatically mean they assimilate.

The evidence you provide is flimsy, at best. Just not enough from actual canon-material to support everything you're claiming. I feel like this is all hinged off of one Faceless having ambiguous allegiances and you just ran away with it...

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Not any longer, sure. Y'Shaarj hasn't been plugged into their brains for a long, long time. However, the immature Mantid still behave as a hive.

Wait, he literally quotes a Blue Post saying they don't operate as a hive mind...

...and you counter by saying the immature ones do?

See it's things like that make your information highly doubtful. You pretend to know things Blizzard has not confirmed or to be aware of subtle details that we are not, mostly. And it seems like a lot of people "misunderstand" you. Makes one curious, doesn't it?

[OIS]

As is always the case with these things, the further you get from the source the more removed the creature is. But if you're asking if the Aqir are also avatars of the Old Gods, that was literally their lore when they were introduced. The Qiraji were all avatars of C'thun, at least to some extent or another.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Prophecy_of_C%27Thun

The servants of the Old Gods are referred to as Avatars on several occasions. An avatar being the manifestation of a god. And the Old Gods being referred to as manifestations of the power of the Void Lords, suggesting they too are avatars. Now, some are clearly more independent than others, but that's that.

Old Gods were designed as hiveminds.

They are not referred as avatars on several occasions. There was only one faceless one that was the avatar of something, and that something was Soggoth the Slitherer, not an Old God. The only thing that had been an avatar of an Old God took the form of a vrykul, actually. And I'm not sure The Prophecy of C'Thun is entirely canon, it says the qiraji were created from the silithid, but the WoW Magazine says the exact opposite.

Let me explain, since you seem to be misunderstanding me. Old Gods are hiveminds, plural. One colony wars with another.

Secondly, it's indeed true that the servants of the Old Gods have distinct personalities. I never said otherwise. Hiveminds are sometimes depicted as only having one overarching personality, but Blizzard's depictions of Hiveminds have never been that. They have been many personalities, but all bound in absolute service and devotion to the same will. That is how we have numerous examples of Old God "Avatars" who nonetheless carry different names than their God and refer to their God in third person.

So it's a hive mind, even though it doesn't have what would make it a hive mind. But it's still a hive mind because... why exactly? Just because they all serve the same guy doesn't make them a hive mind, if that's what you are trying to say.

[KrakHed]

Actually, you're changing what you originally said. You said:

You're claiming a couple of questionable things here that I don't think are as clear and obvious as stated. However, the one I'm focused on is the last sentence. The one about OGs assimilating the forces of other OGs "well",

Ahem. I said, "One things Old Gods do well is assimilate the forces of others.", which you read as "OGs assimilating the forces of other OGs "well"".

I didn't say "other OGs". I said others. Meaning any others, with no intent to single out other Old Gods. They assimilate the forces of anything other than themselves. Please don't add on extra to what I said. And in general, corruption has always been assimilation. The Black Dragonflight was fundamentally altered to be weak to the control of Old Gods. They could resist, but they were basically mostly assimilated by that point.

And how is assimilating not the motive for the Nightmare? Old Gods seek to remake Azeroth in the image of their masters, who seek to use Azeroth to remake reality in their image and bring it under their control. To seize control of the Emerald Nightmare is a good first step in remaking Azeroth. Corruption has always gone hand in hand with Old God control, of some degree or another. Old God corruption is assimilation.

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They are not referred as avatars on several occasions. There was only one faceless one that was the avatar of something, and that something was Soggoth the Slitherer, not an Old God. The only thing that had been an avatar of an Old God took the form of a vrykul, actually. And I'm not sure The Prophecy of C'Thun is entirely canon, it says the qiraji were created from the silithid, but the WoW Magazine says the exact opposite.

So it's a hive mind, even though it doesn't have what would make it a hive mind. But it's still a hive mind because... why exactly? Just because they all serve the same guy doesn't make them a hive mind, if that's what you are trying to say.

Soggoth? I'm talking about the one in Nazmir. The Avatar of G'huun. I brought up that one multiple times. How did you not notice?

And yes, a hivemind. Hiveminds tend to be depicted in many different ways, you know. The Zerg are a hivemind. A hivemind with individuals with varying personalities, with different intermediate command units with their own personalities. Were the Zerg not a hivemind?

Wait, he literally quotes a Blue Post saying they don't operate as a hive mind...

...and you counter by saying the immature ones do?

See it's things like that make your information highly doubtful. You pretend to know things Blizzard has not confirmed or to be aware of subtle details that we are not, mostly. And it seems like a lot of people "misunderstand" you. Makes one curious, doesn't it?

Immature Klaxxi have no real will of their own and act as the voices in their heads tell them. They're textbook hivemind. Moreso than most other Old God creatures.

[Aucald]

Not any longer, sure. Y'Shaarj hasn't been plugged into their brains for a long, long time. However, the immature Mantid still behave as a hive.

Immature Mantid are enthralled to the current Queen's "song," like a kind of psychic imperative - but they are not connected to one-another, and they're actually only quasi-sentient at that point save for exceptions like Kil'ruk or other would-be Paragons. They don't know one another's thoughts, however; and they certainly don't coordinate their attacks in any advanced manner indicative of a hive mind - they simply swarm over their objectives, striking randomly and getting killed as often as they kill their opponents. That is actually the entire idea of the Mantid's periodic Swarm, to kill off those drones too weak to eventually develop true sentience and identity, the ones who are so depending on the Queen that they can't function without her constant presence. Kil'ruk's short story "Death From Above" actually gives a very clear picture of how the immature Mantid function, and their relationship to their Queen and the Klaxxi themselves.

[KrakHed]

Immature Mantid are enthralled to the current Queen's "song," like a kind of psychic imperative - but they are not connected to one-another, and they're actually only quasi-sentient at that point save for exceptions like Kil'ruk or other would-be Paragons. They don't know one another's thoughts, however; and they certainly don't coordinate their attacks in any advanced manner indicative of a hive mind - they simply swarm over their objectives, striking randomly and getting killed as often as they kill their opponents. That is actually the entire idea of the Mantid's periodic Swarm, to kill off those drones too weak to eventually develop true sentience and identity, the ones who are so depending on the Queen that they can't function without her constant presence. Kil'ruk's short story "Death From Above" actually gives a very clear picture of how the immature Mantid function, and their relationship to their Queen and the Klaxxi themselves.

Since when do all hiveminds know one another's thoughts? There are many variants on the concept, and knowing the thoughts of the rest of the hive is only one variant of the hivemind. Other variants include near mindless drones that have to be coordinating by a control intelligence, drones with decent individual survival instinct that can operate independently but nonetheless wholeheartedly obey whatever commands they receive from the control intelligence, and so on.

You clearly have a much more limited notion of what a hivemind is than I do. Hiveminds have been portrayed in a ton of different ways. I'm not talking one consciousness equally spread out over a large number. I'm talking an extremely uneven distribution with various degrees of autonomy. Closer to an actual hive, but with a magical element added in.

[OIS]

Soggoth? I'm talking about the one in Nazmir. The Avatar of G'huun. I brought up that one multiple times. How did you not notice?

And yes, a hivemind. Hiveminds tend to be depicted in many different ways, you know. The Zerg are a hivemind. A hivemind with individuals with varying personalities, with different intermediate command units with their own personalities. Were the Zerg not a hivemind?

All that stuff about G'huun isn't finalized, why bring that into discussion? Seriously, you are presenting your theory as the truth about life and what you are backing it with is something that is yet to be added to the game?

There may be beings in the zerg with varying personalities, but that's more to do with them evolving to suit the swarm's needs. Not the same case with Old God minions. Furthermore, the zerg are more similar to the Tyranids from Warhammer 40K, the quintessential hive mind. I don't know what you are trying to compare. Sargeras has avatars too, is the Burning Legion a hive mind now?

[Aucald]

Since when do all hiveminds know one another's thoughts? There are many variants on the concept, and knowing the thoughts of the rest of the hive is only one variant of the hivemind. Other variants include near mindless drones that have to be coordinating by a control intelligence, drones with decent individual survival instinct that can operate independently but nonetheless wholeheartedly obey whatever commands they receive from the control intelligence, and so on.

The two types of hive mind I'm familiar with are the collective consciousness model (multiple parties pooling their sentience and sharing knowledge, opinions, perspectives, etc.) and the domination model where a single controlling intelligence essentially puppeteers mindless drones. The relationship the Mantid have to their Queen satisfies neither model, really; even though the immature Mantid are dependent on their Queen's "song" to function they're not literally directed by the Queen. Some of them can even strike out on their own, or function without the "song" (as Kil'ruk himself did) - the "song" is only present to comfort them and allow the immature Mantid to commune with their Queen (to whom they have an overriding biological imperative to obey, taking the form of a kind of unconditional love). While still only partly sentient they *are* separate beings, and go on to function entirely independent their Queen later on.

[Enkrypt]

You clearly have a much more limited notion of what a hivemind is than I do. Hiveminds have been portrayed in a ton of different ways. I'm not talking one consciousness equally spread out over a large number. I'm talking an extremely uneven distribution with various degrees of autonomy. Closer to an actual hive, but with a magical element added in.

I think what we have here is a misunderstanding of a hive mind. I'm aware that a hive mind can function in different ways, but this is kind of a stretch. You're trying to sell the notion that they are a hive mind, without any qualities of being a hive mind. And that's just ridiculous. There are clear indicators that they are not, in fact, a hive mind yet you keep inferring they are with very gray, vague loopholes that don't really amount to much in the way of evidence or proof. Whereas others cite either official Blue Posts or canonical short stories, and you just shrug it off as if it were not proof to the contrary of what you're saying.

[KrakHed]

The two types of hive mind I'm familiar with are the collective consciousness model (multiple parties pooling their sentience and sharing knowledge, opinions, perspectives, etc.) and the domination model where a single controlling intelligence essentially puppeteers mindless drones. The relationship the Mantid have to their Queen satisfies neither model, really; even though the immature Mantid are dependent on their Queen's "song" to function they're not literally directed by the Queen. Some of them can even strike out on their own, or function without the "song" (as Kil'ruk himself did) - the "song" is only present to comfort them and allow the immature Mantid to commune with their Queen (to whom they have an overriding biological imperative to obey, taking the form of a kind of unconditional love). While still only partly sentient they *are* separate beings, and go on to function entirely independent their Queen later on.

And the Zerg were neither model with their Overmind and Cerebrates, yet still a hivemind. As for the relationship between the Mantid Queen and the swarm of newborns? It very much satisfies the requirements to be a form of hivemind. Do you think all ants are the exact same consciousness? A hive nonetheless functions as one organism despite that separation. I'm not saying the Mantid are the same kind of hiveminds as the Old Gods, but the relationship between their Queen and the immature Mantids matches many depictions of a hivemind.

All that stuff about G'huun isn't finalized, why bring that into discussion? Seriously, you are presenting your theory as the truth about life and what you are backing it with is something that is yet to be added to the game?

There may be beings in the zerg with varying personalities, but that's more to do with them evolving to suit the swarm's needs. Not the same case with Old God minions. Furthermore, the zerg are more similar to the Tyranids from Warhammer 40K, the quintessential hive mind. I don't know what you are trying to compare. Sargeras has avatars too, is the Burning Legion a hive mind now?

The Avatars of Sargeras refer to themselves as Sargeras with the consciousness of Sargeras, at least so long as they are imbue with the spirit of Sargeras. If the Burning Legion was composed primarily of beings forged from Sargeras's own flesh and behaved the same way as the Avatar did, I'd call that a form of hivemind.

The Avatar of G'huun, Ju'ngo, does not call itself G'huun or speak as if it were G'huun. It claims to speak for G'huun, and generally behaves as any Faceless One would. The Qiraji were described as Avatars back in the day, and were never depicted with the exact same personality as C'thun either. Even if that was retconned, it was true back in the day when the Qiraji were being written. And one thing that's very obvious about C'thun and the Silithid? They were inspired by the Zerg.

And yes, you can say the Zerg evolved to fit the Swarm's needs. They still had individual personalities, and you still accept them as a hivemind. If a degree of autonomy benefits the Old Gods, they will create their servants with that exact degree of autonomy. The current observable data suggests the Old Gods create highly autonomous avatars and localized command units, like Il'gynoth. It's easier than having one consciousness micromanage every single decision to piss or eat.

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I think what we have here is a misunderstanding of a hive mind. I'm aware that a hive mind can function in different ways, but this is kind of a stretch. You're trying to sell the notion that they are a hive mind, without any qualities of being a hive mind. And that's just ridiculous. There are clear indicators that they are not, in fact, a hive mind yet you keep inferring they are with very gray, vague loopholes that don't really amount to much in the way of evidence or proof. Whereas others cite either official Blue Posts or canonical short stories, and you just shrug it off as if it were not proof to the contrary of what you're saying.

Because it's not contrary to what I'm saying at all. The Mantid are not a hivemind, but the relation between the Queen and the immature mantid is very much one way hiveminds have been depicted. It's similar to how Silithid hives operate. This is just a tangent that has nothing to do with the main point. I read all the stories everyone else did. I made my point knowing their full content.

With the Mantid, I see their hive characteristics as vestigial leftovers, and nothing more. They're hardly relevant to the conversation.

But lets take a step back for a second. Faceless Ones are beings birthed by the Old God "Queen", utterly loyal and obedient to them, serve every whim whispered into their heads by their "Queen" to which they are psychically linked, and so on. One has never been known to betray its "Queen". That's all they need to be a form of hivemind. They are a hive organism.

The only point of debate is which sort of hivemind they are.

[Aquamonkey]

And the Zerg were neither model with their Overmind and Cerebrates, yet still a hivemind. As for the relationship between the Mantid Queen and the swarm of newborns? It very much satisfies the requirements to be a form of hivemind. Do you think all ants are the exact same consciousness? A hive nonetheless functions as one organism despite that separation. I'm not saying the Mantid are the same kind of hiveminds as the Old Gods, but the relationship between their Queen and the immature Mantids matches many depictions of a hivemind.

The zerg are not originally a hive mind and each member (at least the more advanced ones) has individuality. The individuals are dominated by the Overmind to keep them in check.

[Magistrate]

Kinda tired of all this "Old God" stuff before it even becomes a expension/patch/whatever...

Why are people so damn obsessed with these Old Gods. Is that what you want to fight? Tentacles, Teeth, Eyes, purple slime?
Sounds so boring.

It's like 10% of the launch content. Let people enjoy things.