Out of control! Antorus normal be 945 and ahead of the curve Antorus or no invite

[Serenity91]

Sounds like a good start, especially banning damage meters and removing ilvl. Also, gear tracking addons like gearscore should be banable. Overall, we need less ways to check and judge eachother.

"I want to fuck others over by being carried"

We need the opposite. We need MORE ways to judge other people.

[thunderdragon2]

Why would they invite lower ilevel people over higher ilevel people?

you should mix both when ur fishing for legendaries or even just gearing that way you are adding to the potential raider pool and adding to the raiding community as a whole.

the reason the community is so small is that people are are unable to take the jump due to lack of grps the can get in and lack of experience with the fights to be able to raid lead

[Twdft]

ban damage meters from the game, remove item level from game. code overachiever addon into the game. once the only metric available is if you survive the encounter or die within the first minute, then problem solved.

That's just wasting everyones time. We need tools to judge peoples performances.

Noone wants to judge your character. Noone gives a fuck about your age, sex, location, when you apply to a PUG. Raiding is a team effort and for it to be successful every participant has to perform at a certain level. And it is better for everyone if the raid leader knows what performance to expect from the people s/he invites.

[Sunderella]

That's just wasting everyones time. We need tools to judge peoples performances.

Noone wants to judge your character. Noone gives a fuck about your age, sex, location, when you apply to a PUG. Raiding is a team effort and for it to be successful every participant has to perform at a certain level. And it is better for everyone if the raid leader knows what performance to expect from the people s/he invites.

And that is the problem. Item level or achivments wont tell you a certain player skill. I know a lot of people with higher item level than me that will not interrupt a spell to save their lives and I could easily buy a run to get the achivements or higher level gear.

The only fair way to judge someones perfomance is to watch them perform. If you dont want to take the time to do that then thats a different problem.

[JackWest]

And that is the problem. Item level or achivments wont tell you a certain player skill. I know a lot of people with higher item level than me that will not interrupt a spell to save their lives and I could easily buy a run to get the achivements or higher level gear.

The only fair way to judge someones perfomance is to watch them perform. If you dont want to take the time to do that then thats a different problem.

It will never be "fair". Good players dont wanna waste their time with bad players, who dont give a shit how many times they will fuck up. Play the game just to pass time if you want, and dont care how bad you play your class, or how many mines you walk through on High Command because paying attention to where you walk is too "hardcore". Thing is, I wanna know who has that "mentality" so I dont spend 3 hours wiping on one boss when I can one shot it and have a smooth essence/pantheon upgrade run with good players on my level. People will always find a way to evaluate/judge others no matter how accurate or unfair it is

[epLe]

The "Make your own group" people dont comprehend that every single group needs alot more to join it, than the 1 who creates it.
So everyone making their own group doesn't solve this incredibly toxic behaviour.

Only Blizzard can battle this problem by hiding ilvls, breaking gear check function calls, removing curves and such measures.

[Hubbl3]

The "Make your own group" people dont comprehend that every single group needs alot more to join it, than the 1 who creates it.
So everyone making their own group doesn't solve this incredibly toxic behaviour.

Only Blizzard can battle this problem by hiding ilvls, breaking gear check function calls, removing curves and such measures.

Yes, lets just build raids with a random number generator! That will remove toxicity from the game.

[lummiuster]

Ok guys, this is just first week or raid.

It feels like WoW = ilvl. Nothing more.

Something must be made by Blizzard to fix this problem. If you play one char, you probable don't have it, but if you play more, this is unacceptable.

Is not the first time when happens, this problem persist.

Makes sense. Some people like me (975il), just want to run Antorus for legendary grind. I wanna form a group for people like me who wants to run it quickly without having to play with a bunch of carries or low dps. Beside, 945il is obtainable by being full 910gear (from argus token grind) and 2 legendaries. If you dont even have this i dont want you in my group for sure.

[Twdft]

The "Make your own group" people dont comprehend that every single group needs alot more to join it, than the 1 who creates it.
So everyone making their own group doesn't solve this incredibly toxic behaviour.

Only Blizzard can battle this problem by hiding ilvls, breaking gear check function calls, removing curves and such measures.

Someone starts a PUG with the aim to clear Antorus normal within 3 hours. Do you actually believe that you can just invite whoever applies and be successful? What is so incredibly toxic about wanting to invite players who are probably able to achieve the goal?

[Softbottom]

If you want to get into groups i'll let you in on a secret.

Lie

That's it. I just took my newly boosted void elf through all of normal at a sub 900 ilvl and heroic at a 915 ilvl by just queuing for everything and linking achievements.

Don't have an achievement?
http://www.wow-fake.com/achievement/

There you go. Nobody ever checks. They just invite based on what you link. If you get kicked after one or 2 bosses, just find a new group at the boss you need.

Also the groups claiming they want 10000 ilvl are full of shit. They will invite people way lower than that. They just say that to scare people away.

I do compare achieves once people zone in to see if they actually have acheives. So clowns like you don't get spots in my raids

[Lord Pebbleton]

ban damage meters from the game, remove item level from game. code overachiever addon into the game. once the only metric available is if you survive the encounter or die within the first minute, then problem solved.

This makes no sense. The community will just come up with other metrics. Maybe a one-by-one inspection in front of the bank, logs, even addons that replace ilvl and that will become fundamental if you want to pug. You aren't solving any problems, you're just forcing the community to find other ways to verify people's worth.

[Tradu]

you should mix both when ur fishing for legendaries or even just gearing that way you are adding to the potential raider pool and adding to the raiding community as a whole.

the reason the community is so small is that people are are unable to take the jump due to lack of grps the can get in and lack of experience with the fights to be able to raid lead

No, I "shouldn't". That expectation is the problem. People refuse to work their way through the different levels of raiding, they just want to get taken by the best groups immediately. If you're inexperienced, join groups with other inexperienced people and learn the raid together. You won't clear it the first time around, probably, but that's just how it works. You don't need others to carry you in order to "teach" you, there's plenty of guides available, and most of the fights on low difficulties are very simple. If you want to join good groups, you have to prove you're worth their time, just like everybody else.

- - - Updated - - -

And that is the problem. Item level or achivments wont tell you a certain player skill. I know a lot of people with higher item level than me that will not interrupt a spell to save their lives and I could easily buy a run to get the achivements or higher level gear.

The only fair way to judge someones perfomance is to watch them perform. If you dont want to take the time to do that then thats a different problem.

There's no need to watch people perform, logs exist. Expecting people to take their time giving you a shot without any good reason to is just silly and entitled. Also better gear and more/better achievements definitely increase the odds of the player being good.

- - - Updated - - -

The "Make your own group" people dont comprehend that every single group needs alot more to join it, than the 1 who creates it.
So everyone making their own group doesn't solve this incredibly toxic behaviour.

Only Blizzard can battle this problem by hiding ilvls, breaking gear check function calls, removing curves and such measures.

Having standards is not toxic, and none of those things need to be hidden or removed. And yes, groups need more than just the leader, hence why if 1 of the people making a post whining about not being accepted makes a group, that means up to 29 other people making that type of post could join that group and together they could get more experience to more easily join other groups. Of course, that won't happen because that'd require effort instead of getting carried to full clears when you're not actually in a position where that matches your skill/effort level.

- - - Updated - - -

This makes no sense. The community will just come up with other metrics. Maybe a one-by-one inspection in front of the bank, logs, even addons that replace ilvl and that will become fundamental if you want to pug. You aren't solving any problems, you're just forcing the community to find other ways to verify people's worth.

Indeed, it'd just make it more annoying to lead groups, deterring people from doing so, leading to fewer potential groups for people to join.

[thunderdragon2]

No, I "shouldn't". That expectation is the problem. People refuse to work their way through the different levels of raiding, they just want to get taken by the best groups immediately. If you're inexperienced, join groups with other inexperienced people and learn the raid together. You won't clear it the first time around, probably, but that's just how it works. You don't need others to carry you in order to "teach" you, there's plenty of guides available, and most of the fights on low difficulties are very simple. If you want to join good groups, you have to prove you're worth their time, just like everybody else.

i tried that when gearing my dk when he was 920 ish i was joining groups where the raid leader was around the same ilvl as me and i have multiple clears over my toons as me but every single leader declined me instantly they just want a carry nothing i can do about that sadly.

so any other things you want to try and throw at me?

[anveena]

It's amusing how people think setting requirements to join a pug group is toxic. Everyone doesn't like wasting hours on wipes. People don't like getting to kin'garoth and beyond to only have the group fall apart because people can't handle mechanics. If you can filter out players with lower itemlevels or that lack achievements then you're going to significantly increase the chances of your pug succeeding.

For all of you going on about how we shouldn't being able to see a players itemlevel, their dps/hps or their achievements. Have any of you ever ran LFR? Have you seen what happens when random players with zero vetting get tossed into a group? Sounds like the non toxic paradise we've all been dreaming of!

It really makes you think why people are so against others being able to vet who they want to play with. If I had to venture a guess I'd say it's probably because you're just terrible players that can't handle getting anywhere in the game without being carried.

[Swampmoose]

It really makes you think why people are so against others being able to vet who they want to play with. If I had to venture a guess I'd say it's probably because you're just terrible players that can't handle getting anywhere in the game without being carried.

On the other hand, I venture to guess people that make groups with ilvl requirements of 960+ for a raid that drops 930 or 945 ilvl gear are the ones in need of a carry.

[amaze123]

On the other hand, I venture to guess people make groups with ilvl requirements of 960+ for a raid that drops 930 or 945 ilvl gear are the ones in need of a carry.

As a mythic raider you have to clear the raid 2-3 times a week only on your main. So ofc you want to waste a minimum amount of time in trivial normal and heroic content. The fastest way to do that is to use the undeniable correlation between high ilvl and high dps and build or join groups accordingly.

[Swampmoose]

As a mythic raider you have to clear the raid 2-3 times a week only on your main. So ofc you want to waste a minimum amount of time in trivial normal and heroic content. The fastest way to do that is to use the undeniable correlation between high ilvl and high dps and build or join groups accordingly.

As a mythic raider, if you have to clear Heroic and Normal content in pugs, you should probably find a new guild.

[demonyaa]

what would happen is that since there are no demonstrable requirements against which to be compared, you would get your invite. then you can either be fine for the duration of the pug or die repeatedly doing stupid stuff and be kicked. either way you would at the very least have your chance. Would there be any more or less pugs? Thats irrelevant to this thread.

Lets agree do disagree.

Also you seem to assume everybody creating and looking for pugs are actually trying to be carried which is probably not true. In fact you make it sound like the very existence of pug groups was meant to be carried. I myself have had times where my only way to raid or do high level vanilla dungeons was done via pugs. Of course back then i had a healthy and active friendlist of trustworthy people. That method served me well when I needed it. Probably would still work nowadays although community is not what it used to be anymore.
.

On the contrary. I pug quite a bit on my alts and mostly what I see are people trying to form homogeneous groups in terms of gear and skill. This is what maximizes beforehand the chance of success of any pug. Believe it not but you can still get that "vanilla" feel using the several tools that are available, forming groups over discord or even in game with the support of either wowprogress or the more convenient raider.io.

[Velshin]

This issue is as old as the game, so no, removing those won't solve anything.

No it's not tbh these things came out during Wotlk expansion.

[Riistov]

No it's not tbh these things came out during Wotlk expansion.

Wotlk introduced new tools for vetting. In BC and vanilla, it was not uncommon to be inspected thoroughly in SW or Org before you were givin the okay. Players will always find a way to filter out unqualified players. Its been that way forever.