Out of control! Antorus normal be 945 and ahead of the curve Antorus or no invite

[Deleted]

Don't need a full-sized mythic group for Normal or Heroic and if it only takes an hour for each, pretty sure people can find time. Next excuse.

Example: I pug my upgrade tokens, because the heroic clears of my guilds are on Wednesday and not mandatory. I would prefer to do something else Wednesday night, so I don't participate. Quite a few of my guildmates handle it that way. We use the wide variety of fast upgrade groups, that are aimed at people in our situation. Also some of us use different characters for progress on different bosses, while the guild only clears heroic once at times, so they bring their lowest geared char to the guild run and pug with the others.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

No need to bring politics into this really, but there is nothing immature (as you said grow out) of socialism. It works quite well IRL, and to ask for a somewhat similar system ingame is not the craziest thing you can do.

Mind blown. Goodbye!

Most capitalist countries in RL also have socialized safety nets; in WoW this comes in the form of guilds. I suppose you could add LFD and LFR, at some level, because they give you a chance to experience the game regardless of skill or ability. But if you want to be known as more than just a number, you need either guild or in-game friends.

[Battlebeard]

Because an infinitely farmable source of high base ilevel loot from a fairly small pool(each dungeon has maybe 10-15 items per lootspec iirc) would be stupid. Just think back to Legion launch when everybody was boosting Maw keys all day.

Yeah, that would be the case, true. But they could maybe get you loot saved once per dungeon per week. Or at least per difficulty. Like if you do +15, you get lootsaved +15, you either do lower (less rewards ofc) or higher. I would absolutely prefer that system over keystones.

[JackWest]

I do understand that, and I can't really blame you for wanting a fast raid, but it's the "phenomenon" so to speak that bothers me. When did WoW become "raid fast so we get it done". It's been like this always, but not to this degree. I think Legion has made pugging so extremely "toxic" and horrible in this aspect. But I suppose with an expansion based around grinds and chores, raiding also becomes a chore to be done as fast as possible

Because the ‘raid fast’ applies to content thats below the person’a level, and aim, but still provides some benefit. Ex. I only care about mythic but i still need either hc or normal for essences and pantheon upgrade. The ‘phenomenon’ is that pll dont wanna wipe and use a lot of time on content thats ‘trivial’ for them. I dont see anything wrong with that. Its the ‘relevant’ content where they wanna put the time and wipe frustration

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I can only assume you talk about me.

I was replying to Ydraw, but by "those who'd rather complain in forums" I meant all those who fit that description. Was not thinking specifically of you. I see you are working with a guild; they should eventually get to know you for your ability more than your gear score, so I'm sure it will work out one way or another.

I think a lot of us see these threads and think "It was easy enough when I did it; why do these people keep making it hard for themselves?"

[Ponky]

My guild does HC runs, and I joined a few now, on a weekly basis. But it took some time for me to gear up enough for those runs. They do HC runs but they don't boost people and I totally accept and agree with that. They are efficient mythic raiders who hunt TF upgrades in HC etc, no time to take lower geared, even though they know me, it's not personal. So yeah, I can raid with them but still need the gear first.

So when a guild doesn't want to carry and still demand that you would be up-to-date with your character, why should a pug do that? I would say that it's even less chance that a pug will carry someone than a guild would.

[Fjordkeeper]

He did mention to remove all information you could get on players a couple pages ago, not to mention the removal of damage meters aswell....

This is an absolutely horrible idea.
Information about a player can easily be accessed through other means and a removal of easy access would result in a horrible situation with fishy addons.
And how on earth is removing damage meters providing any betterment to this? If your dps is bad, the RL has an absolute solid reason to remove you from the group.

I thought this guys whole argument was about players that do very well, without gear and achievements not getting invites. So how can these players prove that they are good, when there is no tool to measure it?

If you ask me, this guy is just a very bad player and gets kicked a lot because his performance is lacking, so hiding DPS would profit him.

[Deleted]

I do understand that, and I can't really blame you for wanting a fast raid, but it's the "phenomenon" so to speak that bothers me. When did WoW become "raid fast so we get it done". It's been like this always, but not to this degree. I think Legion has made pugging so extremely "toxic" and horrible in this aspect. But I suppose with an expansion based around grinds and chores, raiding also becomes a chore to be done as fast as possible

The thing with legion is, that clearing stuff still has a chance of giving you upgrades even if you outgear it. In WoD, when I had my mythic drops, there was no reason to do heroic anymore, as nothing that dropped there would replace a mythic item. Titanforging and legendaries have changed that and artificially prolonged the lifetime of low difficulty content. Otherwise people with 960 ilvl wouldn't apply to groups for heroic, so you would have less competition. Ergo titanforging is the bane of the casual.

[klaps_05]

And this is where logs come in. The bad player will have no logs or bad logs, while the good player will have good logs(likely logged himself, because he is used to it from having raided at a "high" level in the past). Returning players massively overvalue their "experience" as well. It doesn't matter what you did 6 years ago, what matters is what you did in the last few, because the specs/raids have changed a lot.

As I was Guy B some time ago, I did the unthinkable - I actually whispered to the raid lead and after just a few whispers got an invite without being with some crazy ilevel, logs or curve. I guess this is really taboo since the whole "being social" stuff was only part of vanilla and didnt exist in no other expansion, but I like to break the rules sometimes too!

[Battlebeard]

So when a guild doesn't want to carry and still demand that you would be up-to-date with your character, why should a pug do that? I would say that it's even less chance that a pug will carry someone than a guild would.

There is a difference between being undergeard and being carried. I wouldn't be carried and I haven't been carried in any raid I done. They just have a set ilvl req and no exception rules, as otherwise people would want to join with characters that WOULD be carried.

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The thing with legion is, that clearing stuff still has a chance of giving you upgrades even if you outgear it. In WoD, when I had my mythic drops, there was no reason to do heroic anymore, as nothing that dropped there would replace a mythic item. Titanforging and legendaries have changed that and artificially prolonged the lifetime of low difficulty content. Otherwise people with 960 ilvl wouldn't apply to groups for heroic, so you would have less competition. Ergo titanforging is the bane of the casual.

Yes, TF is a horrible game design. I wish that all difficulties would share loot. Like if you killed a boss on Mythic, that boss won't drop gear for you in Heroic, Normal or LFR that week. Then Mythic raiders would prio mythic and maybe only do a few HC bosses, if they don't clear 11/11 mythic.

[Deleted]

Join a friendly guild and join in alt runs with experienced players on lower ilvl toons.

They still mostly turn up on mains so you get to go on your toon and get extra traded loot

[Deleted]

This is an absolutely horrible idea.
Information about a player can easily be accessed through other means and a removal of easy access would result in a horrible situation with fishy addons.
And how on earth is removing damage meters providing any betterment to this? If your dps is bad, the RL has an absolute solid reason to remove you from the group.

I thought this guys whole argument was about players that do very well, without gear and achievements not getting invites. So how can these players prove that they are good, when there is no tool to measure it?

If you ask me, this guy is just a very bad player and gets kicked a lot because his performance is lacking, so hiding DPS would profit him.

Exactly.

I have started to believe that he only wants to discuss to discuss, not go get anywhere. Theres plenty of excuses. Why do you think this thread has reached 50 pages?

[Fjordkeeper]

No need to bring politics into this really, but there is nothing immature (as you said grow out) of socialism. It works quite well IRL, and to ask for a somewhat similar system ingame is not the craziest thing you can do.

So you basically want to leech off other players performance?

So I should pay 10€ a month to carry lazy/bad/unskilled players through raids, wasting my free time?

I don't know you, so why should I be forced to carry your ass throughout the game?

[Battlebeard]

As I was Guy B some time ago, I did the unthinkable - I actually whispered to the raid lead and after just a few whispers got an invite without being with some crazy ilevel, logs or curve. I guess this is really taboo since the whole "being social" stuff was only part of vanilla and didnt exist in no other expansion, but I like to break the rules sometimes too!

Believe me, It tried this, hundreds of times. Most leaders don't even reply at all, and the others just give ignorant replies. Communication in premade finder is dead, it doesn't exist. You are the exception to the rule, somethin that just doesn't happen normally.

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This is an absolutely horrible idea.
Information about a player can easily be accessed through other means and a removal of easy access would result in a horrible situation with fishy addons.
And how on earth is removing damage meters providing any betterment to this? If your dps is bad, the RL has an absolute solid reason to remove you from the group.

I thought this guys whole argument was about players that do very well, without gear and achievements not getting invites. So how can these players prove that they are good, when there is no tool to measure it?

If you ask me, this guy is just a very bad player and gets kicked a lot because his performance is lacking, so hiding DPS would profit him.

This guy, is that me? I would guess so cause it's not that many more people than me who agree with OP and who is against the current situation.

I haven't gotten kicked once. The few times, many weeks ago, that I actually got invited, I did fine, they had no reason to kick me.

The problem is getting invited. I guess the game does kind of reflect IRL in that sense. The hardest part about any job irl or any university education is getting in. Sucks it's the same in game.


And I'm not saying that removing ilvl, DPS meter addons and achivements or other way to track/judge players would solve everything. There would of course remain problems, but I think it's a start and a step in the right direction. The game should be more including. We already have Mythic raids, that more or less require guilds, evrything pre-Mythic should not be so very inaccessible.

I mean it's a game, and a game we pay a subscription for. By playing it and paying for it, I believe we ALL are more entitled than we think. People always use the word entitled in a bad sense, but like I said, it's a game, we invest time in it, and to then spend most of that time getting decline and rejected, meaning you don't really play it (standing in Dalaran whispering leaders for 3 hours doesn't count as playing). That is madness to me.

[Tradu]

Believe me, It tried this, hundreds of times. Most leaders don't even reply at all, and the others just give ignorant replies. Communication in premade finder is dead, it doesn't exist. You are the exception to the rule, somethin that just doesn't happen normally.

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This guy, is that me? I would guess so cause it's not that many more people than me who agree with OP and who is against the current situation.

I haven't gotten kicked once. The few times, many weeks ago, that I actually got invited, I did fine, they had no reason to kick me.

The problem is getting invited. I guess the game does kind of reflect IRL in that sense. The hardest part about any job irl or any university education is getting in. Sucks it's the same in game.


And I'm not saying that removing ilvl, DPS meter addons and achivements or other way to track/judge players would solve everything. There would of course remain problems, but I think it's a start and a step in the right direction. The game should be more including. We already have Mythic raids, that more or less require guilds, evrything pre-Mythic should not be so very inaccessible.

I mean it's a game, and a game we pay a subscription for. By playing it and paying for it, I believe we ALL are more entitled than we think. People always use the word entitled in a bad sense, but like I said, it's a game, we invest time in it, and to then spend most of that time getting decline and rejected, meaning you don't really play it (standing in Dalaran whispering leaders for 3 hours doesn't count as playing). That is madness to me.

So you want to remove important tools for (mythic) raiding in order to make stuff "more accessible" when it is already completely accessible if you put in a bit of effort? And again, your time is not more valuable than the time of the other 9-29 people that would end up carrying you. They also pay subscriptions and spend their free time trying to have fun with the game. They do not have any obligation to invite you.

[Battlebeard]

So you basically want to leech off other players performance?

So I should pay 10€ a month to carry lazy/bad/unskilled players through raids, wasting my free time?

I don't know you, so why should I be forced to carry your ass throughout the game?

No, I want to play the game, just like everyone else. You seem to think that ilvl is a direct reflection of what a player can do DPS/healwise and that an achivement is a direct reflection of how good a player is at mechanics/tactics.

14 years of this game, 14 years of reading up on fights, watching videos, streams, reading tactics etc does leave its marks. Before any boss, I always know exactly what to do. And when I try, I never fail. Yes, as people say, I am very lazy and nowadays I play alot tabbed out etc but that's cause I'm bored, but when I REALLY try, I never fail.

I guess I want leaders to be more open minded, trust the people who apply who claim to be good and not get stuck on numbers. I mean, come one, worst case scenario, you just kick the guy who said he was good if he underperform. At least give him a chance.

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So you want to remove important tools for (mythic) raiding in order to make stuff "more accessible" when it is already completely accessible if you put in a bit of effort? And again, your time is not more valuable than the time of the other 9-29 people that would end up carrying you. They also pay subscriptions and spend their free time trying to have fun with the game. They do not have any obligation to invite you.

Again, you seem to think that just because someone lack ilvl or an achiv, they would be carried. Sometimes sure, but there are many people who are infact good raiders, like returning ex-raiders, who know tactics and who match people with 20ilvl more dpswise.

Peoples fear of carrying others makes them ignorant and not giving people the chance, who in fact would not be carried at all. In fact, they might end up getting carried themselves. I saw just the other day a 945 guy beat a lot of 960+ people quite easily as an example.

[Tradu]

No, I want to play the game, just like everyone else. You seem to think that ilvl is a direct reflection of what a player can do DPS/healwise and that an achivement is a direct reflection of how good a player is at mechanics/tactics.

14 years of this game, 14 years of reading up on fights, watching videos, streams, reading tactics etc does leave its marks. Before any boss, I always know exactly what to do. And when I try, I never fail. Yes, as people say, I am very lazy and nowadays I play alot tabbed out etc but that's cause I'm bored, but when I REALLY try, I never fail.

I guess I want leaders to be more open minded, trust the people who apply who claim to be good and not get stuck on numbers. I mean, come one, worst case scenario, you just kick the guy who said he was good if he underperform. At least give him a chance.

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Again, you seem to think that just because someone lack ilvl or an achiv, they would be carried. Sometimes sure, but there are many people who are infact good raiders, like returning ex-raiders, who know tactics and who match people with 20ilvl more dpswise.

Peoples fear of carrying others makes them ignorant and not giving people the chance, who in fact would not be carried at all. In fact, they might end up getting carried themselves. I saw just the other day a 945 guy beat a lot of 960+ people quite easily as an example.

Nobody cares what you can do, what matters is what you do, and you definitely don't play perfectly.
People need to give a good reason to be given a chance. "I was good in Wrath" is not a good reason. "I play perfectly when I actually try, ALL of those logs are just me slacking, which I definitely won't do in your group" is not a good reason. Most of the playerbase is absolutely horrible at the game compared to how good you need to be to successfully raid, so chances of random clown #12415 who claims to be good actually being good are very slim.

[ydraw]

Most of the playerbase is absolutely horrible at the game compared to how good you need to be to successfully raid, so chances of random clown #12415 who claims to be good actually being good are very slim.

And yet it's very easy to verify their claims by looking at their logs. But nobody gives a shit, they just invite the highest ilvl with the random achieve because taking 5 seconds to click the link to their logs is too hard.

What the game needs is more skill-based achievements showing up in group finder. When Proving grounds was current it was a very good indicator, much more so than gear level. It would be great if solo challenges like mage towers showed up in the group finder UI. And if there were more such solo challenges. Because the hardest thing about this game is actually finding a group for content. Being able to show your ability in a solo situation and advertise that fact would make it easier.

I was in a raiding guild for the whole expansion until it suddenly imploded half way through Tomb Of Sargeras. A guild that I had been in for over 6 years. So I took 2 months off from raiding and come back to find that all of a sudden I'm a lazy, bad shitter and needed a carry (according to people like Fjordkeepr), because my ilvl was 10 ilvls lower than some people. This despite the fact that I've been a mythic raider since before Mythic raids existed.

[Tradu]

And yet it's very easy to verify their claims by looking at their logs. But nobody gives a shit, they just invite the highest ilvl with the random achieve because taking 5 seconds to click the link to their logs is too hard.

What the game needs is more skill-based achievements showing up in group finder. When Proving grounds was current it was a very good indicator, much more so than gear level. It would be great if solo challenges like mage towers showed up in the group finder UI. And if there were more such solo challenges. Because the hardest thing about this game is actually finding a group for content. Being able to show your ability in a solo situation and advertise that fact would make it easier.

Yes, it's easy to verify, and people who don't do so are idiots that you probably don't want to be in a group with anyway. That said, higher ilevel/better achievements do tend to increase the odds of somebody being good.
Proving Grounds were a joke. Mage towers have also become a joke. Neither of them had anything to do with raiding/M+ either. If you don't want to struggle with finding groups, stop being a pug hero. Join a guild, make friends. If your schedule can't support that, that's unfortunate but not a problem with the groups or the game.

[ydraw]

Yes, it's easy to verify, and people who don't do so are idiots that you probably don't want to be in a group with anyway. That said, higher ilevel/better achievements do tend to increase the odds of somebody being good.
Proving Grounds were a joke.

Proving grounds were not a joke when they were current. They are a joke now with artifact weapons, but you had to have a decent grasp of playing your class to get gold or endless proving grounds completed. You couldn't stand in shit, miss interrupts or do poor DPS and expect to complete them.

During WoD selecting apps with gold proving grounds proved to be a pretty effective filter for mythic dungeons and pug raids.

So I disagree, it is a problem with the game. Things like proving grounds and mage towers might not be super difficult but they at least show that the player has tried to challenge himself, and learned something about their class while doing so. Having these kind of achievements show up in group finder could only make the game better.

If you don't want to struggle with finding groups, stop being a pug hero. Join a guild, make friends. If your schedule can't support that, that's unfortunate but not a problem with the groups or the game.

Again, this solution is utterly useless. I am in a guild and I could join their raids if I am online when they occur. But I work on call and I cannot always do that. PUGs exist for a reason. Many people do not have set schedules when they raid. So if your only solution to PUG difficulties is "don't PUG", then you're just being a troll.

In contrast, in the previous post I have posted an actual solution that could help (certainly couldn't hurt) but you want to be an aspy and tell people they're stupid for pugging. Everyone is well aware that PUGging is more difficult.

We aren't doing it out of choice, so telling people to "not PUG" is not helpful at all.