Chinese reaveals plans for lots of Subs & Aircraft Carriers

[Blobfish]

This is worrisome

Or Allies the USA may have to play catch up to the Chinese

Hopefully, the guys at MIT are working on secret weapons...

This is why the USA needs to have more money for weapons
Maybe Allies should pay some protection money, so the US Taxpayer does not ultimately pay.


It looks like China accidentally revealed plans for a massive aircraft carrier and submarines to rival the US
ALEX LOCKIE
MAR 17, 2018, 2:55 AM

Read more at https://www.businessinsider.com/chin...qkDby5mxWp9.99

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/?r=US&IR=T

[Judgedredd]

This is worrisome

Or Allies the USA may have to play catch up to the Chinese

Hopefully, the guys at MIT are working on secret weapons...

This is why the USA needs to have more money for weapons
Maybe Allies should pay some protection money, so the US Taxpayer does not ultimately pay.


It looks like China accidentally revealed plans for a massive aircraft carrier and submarines to rival the US
ALEX LOCKIE
MAR 17, 2018, 2:55 AM

Read more at https://www.businessinsider.com/chin...qkDby5mxWp9.99

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/?r=US&IR=T

You used to, until you blew all of it on Iraq and Afghanistan.

Speaking of which, its 15 years since and still stuck there.

[Cruor]

USA should have crushed China in the Korean war after the ungreatful fool's attacked our forces in Korea right after we saved them from the Japanese. We have had multiple opportunities to pit them in their place and keep failing to do so. It should be done sooner rather than later.

[Judgedredd]

USA should have crushed China in the Korean war after the ungreatful fool's attacked our forces in Korea right after we saved them from the Japanese. We have had multiple opportunities to pit them in their place and keep failing to do so. It should be done sooner rather than later.

The same thing was said about Augustus Caesar not invading then Germania (the barbarians who would later sack Rome came from there). And Napoleon was to have lamented not burning Berlin to the ground at Waterloo (Blucher's timely arrival came at the worst possible time).

[Macaquerie]

USA should have crushed China in the Korean war after the ungreatful fool's attacked our forces in Korea right after we saved them from the Japanese. We have had multiple opportunities to pit them in their place and keep failing to do so. It should be done sooner rather than later.

It's almost like the Chinese government that allied with the US in World War II was not the same one that attacked Korea...

[Skroe]

This is worrisome

Or Allies the USA may have to play catch up to the Chinese

Hopefully, the guys at MIT are working on secret weapons...

This is why the USA needs to have more money for weapons
Maybe Allies should pay some protection money, so the US Taxpayer does not ultimately pay.


It looks like China accidentally revealed plans for a massive aircraft carrier and submarines to rival the US
ALEX LOCKIE
MAR 17, 2018, 2:55 AM

Read more at https://www.businessinsider.com/chin...qkDby5mxWp9.99

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/?r=US&IR=T

(1) Not an accident. This is how China works. It's signalling.

(2) Building something means basically nothing. France has a very US-like carrier in the Charles de Gaulle. It's been a Waterloo-on-the-Sea for the French Navy. France did not have the technical, industrial or naval experience to build, deploy and maintain the de Gaulle.

US carriers are the way they are not because we decided all of a sudden to build big and awesome ones, but rather because the US started building ever bigger ones during and after World War II, introducing features, modifying them, and building better ones. Basically the US has been building large carriers non-stop since World War II, and as a result it knows better than anybody how to build, maintain and sustain carriers. And when new design shifts are taken - say with the Ford - these machines are so complex it takes years to iron out the problems. And we can't forget how early US carriers were deeply troubled.

In short, I'd be much more worried about the 15th Chinese carrier, 70 years from now, than I am about the first in whatever decade it shows up (China and its timelines). More important than having a ship that is "awesome" on paper, which is entirely how China works by the way (superlatives are their thing), it is much more important they develop a standing, professional and capable industrial base that can build and maintain the most complex machines on Earth.

That's no trivial thing. A country can't wave their hands and do that. The French couldn't. The British couldn't. The Russians couldn't. And we know for a fact with the state of the rest of the Chinese navy, right now, China can't.


I'm sure this is going to devolve into yet another military dick measuring thread, but before we get there, I just want to say again, without an experienced defense industrial base - something that takes decades to stand up and a lot of failures - a show piece is a show piece. If you want exhibit A to this effect, inquire as to what decade China plans to actually develop an indigenous jet engine comparable to what GE and P&W were producing 30 years ago. Sure, they can do an airframe. Sure, they can do a prototype. But their domestic competitor to Boeing and Airbus, coming in the form of the Comac C919, uses western engines in the form of the CFM Leap (with the PW1000G as another option), for a reason. China has been putting domestic engines in it's 5 year plan for 25 years. They aren't any closer.


Industrial base. Industrial base. Industrial base.

Industrial base interesting. Weapon system pamphlet statistics... much less so.

[Deleted]

USA should have crushed China in the Korean war after the ungreatful fool's attacked our forces in Korea right after we saved them from the Japanese. We have had multiple opportunities to pit them in their place and keep failing to do so. It should be done sooner rather than later.

China should crush USA once and for all for its atrocities.

[Skroe]

You used to, until you blew all of it on Iraq and Afghanistan.

Speaking of which, its 15 years since and still stuck there.

No, we're good.
https://www.defensenews.com/breaking...defense-boost/

[Blobfish]

No, we're good.
https://www.defensenews.com/breaking...defense-boost/

Well I do feel the USA Allies need to give payback to the US for protection

It must be costing US Taxpayers a lot ..

I believe, Australia & New Zealand taxpayers give some money to the Queen
Who will not protect us during times of conflict.
Maybe say some speach

But during WW2 , the USA sacraficed lives for Australia & NZ... will never forget that

[Noomz]

This is worrisome

Or Allies the USA may have to play catch up to the Chinese

Hopefully, the guys at MIT are working on secret weapons...

This is why the USA needs to have more money for weapons
Maybe Allies should pay some protection money, so the US Taxpayer does not ultimately pay.


It looks like China accidentally revealed plans for a massive aircraft carrier and submarines to rival the US
ALEX LOCKIE
MAR 17, 2018, 2:55 AM

Read more at https://www.businessinsider.com/chin...qkDby5mxWp9.99

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/?r=US&IR=T
/IMG]

I'll wait until they're in the water and actually work. The CCP's military has a way of making things that don't work. Or lie about their capacity. A lot.

But as an Australian, you should perhaps be concerned about it. Though I reckon that the Chinese economic and political influence on your coutnry is something far more concerning.

[Blobfish]

I'll wait until they're in the water and actually work. The CCP's military has a way of making things that don't work. Or lie about their capacity. A lot.

But as an Australian, you should perhaps be concerned about it. Though I reckon that the Chinese economic and political influence on your coutnry is something far more concerning.

Yes.. Some parts of Australias economy are tied up with Chinas
Lots of Pro Communist Chinese Students in Sydney

Although PM Turnbull has been exploring better trade with ASEAN countries & India

Indonesia , big army..pretty cool at the moment
Thailand as well.

Sydney is slowly turning Asian.. a lot of white Australians heading to regional areas.

[Skroe]

Well I do feel the USA Allies need to give payback to the US for protection

It must be costing US Taxpayers a lot ..

I believe, Australia & New Zealand taxpayers give some money to the Queen
Who will not protect us during times of conflict.
Maybe say some speach

But during WW2 , the USA sacraficed lives for Australia & NZ... will never forget that

Australia has a very capable military. Nothing extra is required other than continuing your own build up.

This is not a protection racket, despite what our illegitimate dotard President thinks.

[Judgedredd]

No, we're good.
https://www.defensenews.com/breaking...defense-boost/

And this is going to be paid for by how? Didn't your President just cut the taxes?

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I'll wait until they're in the water and actually work. The CCP's military has a way of making things that don't work. Or lie about their capacity. A lot.

But as an Australian, you should perhaps be concerned about it. Though I reckon that the Chinese economic and political influence on your coutnry is something far more concerning.

That's rich considering you're still stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[ItsRainingMetal]

Well I do feel the USA Allies need to give payback to the US for protection

It must be costing US Taxpayers a lot ..

I believe, Australia & New Zealand taxpayers give some money to the Queen
Who will not protect us during times of conflict.
Maybe say some speach

But during WW2 , the USA sacraficed lives for Australia & NZ... will never forget that

Im curious. What do you think NATO is?

We are not sending "protection money" to anybody, the thought is ridiculous. If the USA is dissatisfied with it's NATO allies, they are, as always, free to leave.
I live in northern Europe, people here, myself included, are genuinely not concerned in the slightest.

Russia is a neighbour, there really are no benefits to antagonizing ones neighbours, better if we just got along. Not for the American military industrial complex ofcourse. Besides, even if Putin decided to invade the EU tomorrow, im confident, we could easily handle that on our own. We have the manpower, the technology and science, the industry and a ridiculous amount of money. We are not exactly strangers to waging war either.

[slime]

China should crush USA once and for all for its atrocities.

then how's it gonna get repaid on all that money US borrowed?

[Skroe]

And this is going to be paid for by how? Didn't your President just cut the taxes?

Taxes and borrowing the difference like anything else.
If the country ever needed to substantially raise taxes to pay for something - i.e. this on steroids - it could. It's a political decision, not an economic one. We're fabulously wealthy.

[Judgedredd]

Australia has a very capable military. Nothing extra is required other than continuing your own build up.

This is not a protection racket, despite what our illegitimate dotard President thinks.

And you still believe Russia is a greater threat?

It ain't the 80's anymore, besides didn't u say somewhere else they are running out of money?

If the Donald is what qualifies as having a spine (at expense of cognitive function) as far as your leaders go, how do you expect any future ones to ever take on China?

Cause the further into the future this goes, Uncle Sam's advantages gradually start to melt away. After all, you guys don't dare send carriers into Chinese waters now like back in '96 right?

Perhaps that guy was right, the problem should have been dealt with during the Korean War before China had nuclear weapons. Now it's going to become one of the 'what-if's' of history.

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Taxes and borrowing the difference like anything else.
If the country ever needed to substantially raise taxes to pay for something - i.e. this on steroids - it could. It's a political decision, not an economic one. We're fabulously wealthy.

Emphasise on the word could, cause it seems to be a big stumbling block.

At this rate, all of Congress will have to agree China is a threat before something is done. It seems their economic velvet glove has done its work in misdirection.

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Im curious. What do you think NATO is?

We are not sending "protection money" to anybody, the thought is ridiculous. If the USA is dissatisfied with it's NATO allies, they are, as always, free to leave.
I live in northern Europe, people here, myself included, are genuinely not concerned in the slightest.

Russia is a neighbour, there really are no benefits to antagonizing ones neighbours, better if we just got along. Not for the American military industrial complex ofcourse. Besides, even if Putin decided to invade the EU tomorrow, im confident, we could easily handle that on our own. We have the manpower, the technology and science, the industry and a ridiculous amount of money. We are not exactly strangers to waging war either.

Did you just use EU and manpower in the same sentence?

I wonder why Uncle Sam has to come all the way there then?

[Skroe]

And you still believe Russia is a greater threat?

It ain't the 80's anymore, besides didn't u say somewhere else they are running out of money?

If the Donald is what qualifies as having a spine (at expense of cognitive function) as far as your leaders go, how do you expect any future ones to ever take on China?

Cause the further into the future this goes, Uncle Sam's advantages gradually start to melt away. After all, you guys don't dare send carriers into Chinese waters now like back in '96 right?

Perhaps that guy was right, the problem should have been dealt with during the Korean War before China had nuclear weapons. Now it's going to become one of the 'what-if's' of history.

Russia is the greater threat beyond 2030. Probably pretty close to 2040. The threat is coming. It is not iminiment.

Russia's ongoing decline and it's lashing out at the world as it tumbles down Mount Olympus (so to speak) makes it a threat today. Priorities, priorities.

Basically this is what is happening. The Decline and Fall of the Russian Empire is continuing. When prior Eurasian empires fell, rarely was it some neat thing... over and done in a year or a few years. or even a decade. It took decades or centuries for the erosion to fully occur. And along the way there was reorganization and periods of relative stability before further plummets, because the internal contradictions and structural failures were never permanently addressed.

This is what is occurring with Russia. The 300 year old "Russian Empire" saw its first major reorganization in the form of the Soviet Union, which was the exact same thing - a Russian imperial domain on its near abroad - with a new economic / political system and new management. This lasted 70 years until another new economic/political system emerged, the empire's borders contracted to a more defensible core, and new management took over.

Historically speaking, this is far, far from uncommon.

The strategic challenge of the Western World over the next 20 years is to co-manage the decline of Russia from great power (which it isn't anymore), to regional power (which it barely is), into whatever remnant state it devolves into next, while simultaneously managing the rise of China, which will put its greatest amount of pressure upon, ironically, Russia's dominance of Asia that was made possible, 300 years ago, only by the decline of China.

Make no mistake what the "New Silk Road" is: a permanent method of China peeling off countries on Russia's soft underbelly and ensuring Chinese hegemony in Asia. Sure... the US will lose some occasional partners in the short term via that. But we don't live there. We'll manage. Russia lives there. It won't.

The Western World, and the US in particular, must walk and chew bubble gum at the same time to see down these threats.

And the US sends carriers into Chinese-cllaimed waters all the time. We did last year.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplo...freedom-patrol

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Emphasise on the word could, cause it seems to be a big stumbling block.

At this rate, all of Congress will have to agree China is a threat before something is done. It seems their economic velvet glove has done its work in misdirection.

Not at all. Right now, the Chinese contingency can easily be paid for with a modest defense boost.

Money is less of an issue than you think. The Navy, for example, is rapidly accelerating ship building. The "problem" is spending that money. It is going to take about 5-7 years to grow the defense industrial base up to fully support the scale of the increased spending. This means reopening yards, training electricians, hiring wielders. The US Navy defense industrial base was progressively scaled down over the post-Cold War period, through the 2000s and early 2010s, but the Pentagon and industry began scaling it up progressively about 5 years ago when the nature of the Chinese threat began to be made clear.

Ultimately the limitation isn't money. That is easily found. It's if the US has enough drydocks and heavy lift cranes capable of constructing warships (for example) at a faster rate. The answer is, yes it does... if you invest sufficient money (which we are) and spend time (which is being spent).

[Deleted]

....

You should probably read this.

[Noomz]

And this is going to be paid for by how? Didn't your President just cut the taxes?

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That's rich considering you're still stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"You"? Who exactly do you think I am? I'm not from the US. Maybe you should try to adress the topic instead of trying to attack me personally.

And what does Iraq and Afghanistan evne have to do with this? How is Iraq and Afghanistan relevant? Elaborate.
You wanna talk about military failures? We could sit here and have a look at China's last conflict, in which they were beaten by Vietnam. Or maybe we could talk about their horrendously corrupt, inexperienced, self-serving generals and leadership? Or that 1 aircraft carrier they have that's a refurbished Russian carrier that doesn't work?