Master Looter

[Grimnakh]

Like i said if you don't like master loot find a guild that doesn't use it.

If you dont like not having ML find a game that allows it.

[Rendark]

If you dont like not having ML find a game that allows it.

Or if you don't like master loot find a guild that doesn't use it.

[Grimnakh]

Or if you don't like master loot find a guild that doesn't use it.

Well.., thats gonna be easy in BFA.. so alright.

[lummiuster]

So you want to tell me that people sitting in front of a computer being "abused" in an online game by other people sitting far away experience the same threats when speaking up as a woman getting beaten by her husband?

Are you actually serious?



But i wouldn't really. I enjoy raiding in legion. I enjoyed raiding since classic. But what i don't like is if i am being forced against my will. Because that's what we are loosing. We loose choice. The fact we were able to handle loot the way we wanted.

There are multiple reasons people are angry about this. For actual solid guilds this only brings more complication. They have 0 benefit from these changes.

Achieving BiS in legion is nearly impossible. Calculate all the factors in with rng WF / TF and sockets etc. So no nobody is BiS after 3 weeks. Are we overgearing the content? Yes there is truth in that. But why has the solution to be "let's force PL down everyones throats if they like it or not"?

Raids being easier isn't necessarily a good thing for everybody. You talk about pugs but this change doesn't event affect pugs the way it does guilds. Why does everything have to be able to be beaten by pugs? Mythic is the embodiment of challenge. Why do you want it to be easier? Mythic is for organized raiding.

Pug raids is in a chaotic situation where they only invite people that are 950+ for normal antorus. With such nerfs, pugs should be able to run normal antorus without item level requirements that only heroic raiders have. They will still not be able to run mythic.

What this change will bring overall:
- Raiding mythic will be as difficult as it is right now for guilds (assuming nerfs will even with mythic diffuclty like they plan)
- Raiding normal and some heroic will be a more realistic possibility to pugs
- Raiders will never feel left behind
- Since it will take much longer to optimize your gear, raiders will always feel a bit of excitement when downing a boss as they can get loot from boss that does not drop their BIS
- There won't be situations where someone is 975il and everytime there is a new raider, they know all the loot will go to them because it "is better for guild progression" leading to boredom of these 975il guys which then stop raiding or leave the guild.
- Since the gear acquisition is more linear and raid difficulty is adjusted, when a guild is stuck on a boss, it will become easyer overtime as guilds get better gear every week. Right now it is common to see a group that is full 970il farming Aggramar, and it never get easyer because everyone already has the best gear of the previous bosses (the raid difficulty is adjusted for this case). So they spend weeks on it without the RPG feeling of being stronger everyweek which increases their chances.

Honestly, I am sure when it comes out you will end up loving it. You just can't see it yet.

[Verdugo]

Honestly, I am sure when it comes out you will end up loving it. You just can't see it yet.

I remember Blizzard saying something similar when they tried to defend legiondaries in beta.

[Rendark]

Well.., thats gonna be easy in BFA.. so alright.

I can't seen them removing it but if they do it will suck for a lot of us.

[Deleted]

I read this as not him having 1 bad experience but an ongoing bad experience with multiple guilds that all can be avoided by removing ML. Ive had bad experiences and ML is one of the reasons I feel little desire to join a mythic raiding guild, Indont want to deal with a commitee and have to kiss asses to get decent rewards, thats like real life bullshit. Im here to have fun. (I did competitive raiding a long long time ago, MC, ZG, Naxx, some BC raiding. Also cleared Antorus heroic week 1 by fighting in pugs all week and easily did a 15 that week after its difficulty was increased).

Each story has two sides. For all we know, he could have been an underperforming trial who was denied loot in favour of someone more active and competent. Cognitive dissonance and ego protection kicked in and suddenly he was the victim of terrible officer corruption. The issue is not ML in any case, it's the use people give to it, which is grossly exaggerated in these threads.

1. Abuse can happen in any way.

2. What is realistic progress speed? Top guilds will still clear content at a much faster speed than the rest.

3. They have said the same several times. It never happens.

4. Why would they quit? This is a very weak point, a total guess based on nthing.

5. It's already easy for puggers to transition into mythic if they put the time. There are many people with 0 mythic kills that have more gear than me, at 9/11 and over 50 total mythic boss kills. TF allows this.

6. I've encountered this and people can always voice their opinion.

7. Barely an issue in the bigger scale.

If trading of PL items is disabled, there doesn't seem to be a way to abuse loot. Whatever you get from a boss is unpredictable, does not effect what others get and is yours and yours only.

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Dear, I have been a progression raider and I know all of these "hard dilemmas". None of them are hard.

The answer is that you regulate access to progression raids vs farm raids by allowing people into farm raids as a reward. Until you are far enough into the tier that this stops being important. You don't have to involve loot at all. Moreover, you are going to regulate access to progression raids vs farm raids regardless, you are already doing this in addition to regulating loot.

This is a complete non-issue.

In your example, you show up for 100 wipes and get nothing because of RNG. Then someone else shows up, you pick them up because you want their spec. This, by the way, shows that you are operating in an error recovery mode, because you do not have enough of the regular people to pick from. If you had enough regular people, we wouldn't have your example. But fine, whatever, let's get on with it - you pick a random. So, this random you picked gets a piece of loot. Guess what, he was incredibly lucky. These things happen. You weren't entitled to this loot either, you didn't have the spec you wanted, he had it, so you picked him up and he did the job and he got super-lucky and got the loot, and it is completely fair that it is his. Congratulate him and move on. But wait, this doesn't end here. Next week you again show up and go into the raid and the boss goes down because you supposedly got stronger / wiser and you have one more chance at your loot, and you will continue to have another 100 chances. Because you were there for progression, you have a spot in farm raids now. That random cannot and will not go to your farm raids, but you will. And you will get your loot from those easy farm raids, way more loot than the single piece that the random got. Everything is *completely* fair.

Don't be condescending, you have nothing to back up your arrogance. If you knew of these woes, it'd show in the arguments and, it just doesn't. I used the 100 wipes v 1 kill as an example. Point is, over the long period of time, some people attend a lot more than others. Participation should be encouraged, especially when it's progress. This doesn't always translate into a regular kill ratio. If on top of that you add RNG, it can be very discouraging. With ML, there's a degree of control that can make it feel better. I know that, even if I'm unlucky with rolls, the piece of tier (or trinket, or relic or whatever) that drops from X boss will be mine next because I'm ahead on priority. With forced PL? Who knows when I'll get it. It may never happen and this is really discouraging.

You're removing options, you're removing control, you're adding to the potential frustration. RNG is already bad, but knowing that there's really zero control when it comes to mythic loot? Really discouraging.

[lummiuster]

I remember Blizzard saying something similar when they tried to defend legiondaries in beta.

They also said that when defending pandas (bad idea) and they said that when defending Mount personal loot (good idea).
What was supposed to be your point?

[last1214]

We might get to some funny situations because of this:

''oh you just show up twice a month? sorry your not being taken to the raid, we don't want to risk RNG to waste a piece of loot on you''

It dosent matter if there are 10 players in a raid group or 30. Your personal odds of obtaining loot are exactly the same! Unless you killed a boss in wich case your persoal odds of getting loot on that particular boss are 0. In this case you actually are detrimental to your group in a master loot setting, not a personal loot setting.

''tonight we are trialing a mage, better bring some more mage alts to minimize the chances of the trial getting that trinket our main mage needs''

This wont happen unless you have some very geared alts that have equivalent itemlevel trinkets (or greater) as your main raiders. If the gear you were hopeing to trade titan forges you wont be able to trade it at all. Maybe the cutting edge guilds might abuse this, but its still a step up from split runs. Will people do this for trialing members? Fuck no, why would you? They might leave tomorrow. You might consider doing it for your veteran mage who has been with the guild for years, always shows up, and has been unlucky with that bosses trinket drop, if you just so happen to have a geared alt that could potentially trade it to him. Provided that the boss is on farm and you dont really need anything for yourself.

''alt run today guys, so we can trial some players without feeling bad for gearing someone that might just leave after first raid''

I cant see serious guilds doing alt runs over thier main run for a shitty trial lol. Unless they are sorely lacking membership, or its thier schedualed alt run. In which case, why wouldn't you want to test out trials and gear up alts?

[Incarnia]

and you wonder why blizzard is removing MLto protect people from toxicity

if the boss went down every player who was there deserves loot - you could have always go in there and 15 man it proving how you didnt need them for kill why didnt you do so ?

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its fascinating that after so many years of playig this game you dont realise how hard for average player is to find guild that is not a toxic puddle of egomaniacs behaving like 12 years old whenever anything that is +5 itlv for them drops.

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if his experience wouldnt be a "norm" then people wouldnt avoid guilds so much and choose pugging over guilds even if its worse experience overall

I haven't encountered the shit you are talking about, at least not often enough to overthrow my other experiences with how raid teams and loot distribution functions within guilds. You have to ask yourself WHY you are having such a different experience in comparison to those who don't share yours. It is obvious you yourself have had a lot of problems with guilds, I can honestly say that I haven't. I've been around this game since its beginning so have seen a few by now. Now, I'm not saying the issues you've mentioned doesn't exist, I know they do, but they are not as big as some seem to want to make them out to be. So again, why is yours and some others experience completely different? Think about that for a while, see if you can come to think of a common factor that's been consistent....

"then people wouldn't avoid guilds so much" - wait a minute, what exactly are you implying with this sentence? That most players in WoW today actively choose NOT to be in a raiding guild IF raiding is what they do as endgame content in this game? Excuse my french, but how the f***k do you know. this?

[Alvito]

First off I want to see if we can keep this conversation mature.

First we need to clarify something. What is a mythic guild. A mythic guild is a guild that completes heroic content the first week of release and are stating mythic day 1 of opening.

To many guilds think they are a mythic that start doing mythic a month so after release.

The only reason for master looter is you are par of a guild that is starting mythic right when it is released because you are very uner geared and are trying to squeeze out every little dps to down a boss.

Why do people exept master looter that are in mythic guild )but really are heroic guilds)?

It appears to many people feel trhat their officers are up to date on every peice of loot per spec by sims. Also people have to much fair in human nature.

Its proven that human nature there will always be favorites or stuff tgiven to friends or officers over others.

How many remember when to get legendaries you actually had to do the raid and tge first person to get was the gm or officer over others.

Something people need to remember that you guild is nothing without you. It does not matter what the gm or officers what, if the mass of the guild does not want master looter then make it known. Tell them if they dont want to switch then they are not raiding.

For people that are not in top 100 explain how master looter, loot concil is making or breaking you downing bosses. I bet the reason you are not downing a boss is because of mechanics not dps.

I am glad to hear that there is a chance that master looter is going away.

Let's hear people matire replies.

So you dump master looter after the 4th or 5th week right? Since it only matters when you are under geared according to you. News flash the only time people are potentially under geared for heroic/mythic is during the first raid of an expansion. After that the people you are talking about are decked out in mythic gear from the previous tier which is at or above the appropriate gear level for the following raid at the same difficulty.

[Gum]

You can already run personal-loot. If you prefer that, plenty of guilds at lower ranks prefer that method. There might even be some top 500 guilds that run PL after a few weeks of progress?

I must admit i dont understand, why people want to remove options for some, due to issues they have... Specially when the issues are so easily fixed by not encountering said thing ever again?

But i do see the correlation to the society we live in. Cant let others enjoy something you dont REEE.
Actually sad to see the state of this community at times.

[IceMan1763]

Like i said if you don't like master loot find a guild that doesn't use it.

And again, ZERO reasoning offered as to why ML can't be easily removed. Since you can't argue your side at all it's looking bad for keeping ML buddy.

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You can already run personal-loot. If you prefer that, plenty of guilds at lower ranks prefer that method. There might even be some top 500 guilds that run PL after a few weeks of progress?

I must admit i dont understand, why people want to remove options for some, due to issues they have... Specially when the issues are so easily fixed by not encountering said thing ever again?

But i do see the correlation to the society we live in. Cant let others enjoy something you dont REEE.
Actually sad to see the state of this community at times.

Because the "issues" are issues for the game and community as a whole. Part of this I see as a clear effort to discourage split raiding, which is a stupid practice enabled by ML and loot trading which forces developers to unfairly tune both mythic and heroic around it. If the developers are smart, trading BOP items will be removed as well. Unfortunately, they're not smart so they'll probably go halfway and we'll have a dreaded no man's land where guilds attempt to get an ML system back again by forcing trials and raiders to trade loot. Then there will be the fighting with the development team over the loot trading rules, which will also be fun. That's probably the most likely direction this is heading, a red headed stepchild of a system that didn't go far enough and is worse than the previous one.

I have yet to see ONE good reason to keep ML offered. Maybe you could be the first? Answer this question and help us understand... why is ML SO necessary to the game? The real answer is it's absolutely not necessary, it actually DOES have downsides for the WHOLE game, and it's about to be removed from the game for GOOD reason.

[Accendor]

First off I want to see if we can keep this conversation mature.

First we need to clarify something. What is a mythic guild. A mythic guild is a guild that completes heroic content the first week of release and are stating mythic day 1 of opening.

To many guilds think they are a mythic that start doing mythic a month so after release.

The only reason for master looter is you are par of a guild that is starting mythic right when it is released because you are very uner geared and are trying to squeeze out every little dps to down a boss.

Why do people exept master looter that are in mythic guild )but really are heroic guilds)?

It appears to many people feel trhat their officers are up to date on every peice of loot per spec by sims. Also people have to much fair in human nature.

Its proven that human nature there will always be favorites or stuff tgiven to friends or officers over others.

How many remember when to get legendaries you actually had to do the raid and tge first person to get was the gm or officer over others.

Something people need to remember that you guild is nothing without you. It does not matter what the gm or officers what, if the mass of the guild does not want master looter then make it known. Tell them if they dont want to switch then they are not raiding.

For people that are not in top 100 explain how master looter, loot concil is making or breaking you downing bosses. I bet the reason you are not downing a boss is because of mechanics not dps.

I am glad to hear that there is a chance that master looter is going away.

Let's hear people matire replies.

Stopped reading right after the start. A mythic guild is a guild that raids mythic, no matter if they do it on day one, two or 30. As long as it their main focus, they ate a mythic guild.

[IceMan1763]

You might consider doing it for your veteran mage who has been with the guild for years, always shows up, and has been unlucky with that bosses trinket drop, if you just so happen to have a geared alt that could potentially trade it to him. Provided that the boss is on farm and you dont really need anything for yourself.

Their loot system could actually be so much better and so much fairer if they just took bad luck protection from Legiondaries and applied it to every high ilvl drop individually. Dedicated veteran mages who really needed a trinket could be brought until they got it, which they would be guaranteed after X number of rolls thanks to bad luck protection. They saw value in this system for Legiondaries so I hope they do the right thing and take the one redeeming part of Legiondaries and put it to good use! This system would actually lead to MORE gear but only really for people who are dedicated to raiding (or M+ gear, or transmog, or whatever since it could be applied elsewhere as well).

[Maudib]

You guild elitists! abused it and now you're losing it!

I'll be honest with you, I can't be happier that this is going away. Guilds can no longer hold players in servitude while they gear the GMs and Officers.

Generally, GMs and Officers put more time into the guild, the bank, dealing with drama... and often deserve to be rewarded first. However, most guilds use a loot system based on attendance, like EPGP or DKP. Master looter just facilitates these systems.

I will agree that guilds these days aren't what they used to be. But that is because of what the game has become. "Back in the day" the reputation of poor and untrustworthy guild leadership dealt a death blow to that guild. Noone would join and those people found themselves unable to raid.

Now, they can just anonymously crossserver post and bring in people who have never heard of them.

The people playing the game today deserve the game it has become and the type of people left playing it.

[Magnosh]

It dosent matter if there are 10 players in a raid group or 30. Your personal odds of obtaining loot are exactly the same! Unless you killed a boss in wich case your persoal odds of getting loot on that particular boss are 0. In this case you actually are detrimental to your group in a master loot setting, not a personal loot setting.



This wont happen unless you have some very geared alts that have equivalent itemlevel trinkets (or greater) as your main raiders. If the gear you were hopeing to trade titan forges you wont be able to trade it at all. Maybe the cutting edge guilds might abuse this, but its still a step up from split runs. Will people do this for trialing members? Fuck no, why would you? They might leave tomorrow. You might consider doing it for your veteran mage who has been with the guild for years, always shows up, and has been unlucky with that bosses trinket drop, if you just so happen to have a geared alt that could potentially trade it to him. Provided that the boss is on farm and you dont really need anything for yourself.



I cant see serious guilds doing alt runs over thier main run for a shitty trial lol. Unless they are sorely lacking membership, or its thier schedualed alt run. In which case, why wouldn't you want to test out trials and gear up alts?

I honestly don't know, If guilds actually funnel loot for GM and officers with ML I can totally see these situations happening.

Are you 100% sure it works like that tho? Doesn't personal loot has a range of items to drop per boss based on the group size and then RNG decides who gets them?

[Rendark]

And again, ZERO reasoning offered as to why ML can't be easily removed. Since you can't argue your side at all it's looking bad for keeping ML buddy.

There are some really good reasons to have master loot. As in we like to use it and no one is making you use it. Use any loot you want but why take away something that other like and doesn't affect you.

[Ferozan]

this thread is the future

[TheEaterofSouls]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3nWMlxf4lI

I've never disagreed more with a video. Why are high end raiders complaining their taking Master loot away? I thought high end raiders hated being forced to do split runs? Don't guilds like Method hate running 5+ characters through heroic every week? Wouldn't forcing personal loot make it easier for other guilds to compete with method? Why are people complaining about removing Master loot as an option? Aren't you tired of Method winning every single race? Don't you want more people to take up high end raiding?

What's wrong with forcing it for a few weeks until a few guilds have killed the final boss on mythic? Or restricting heroic clears per account during the WF race and banning account sharing players?