Raiding and M+ are NOT the same content. They need to stop treating it as such.

[Marrilaife]

Yeah, I'm talking about people pushing content- not farming.

Pushing content doesn't reward you gear. Or at least no more than m+15 (soon m+10 at start of BFA again) does. People who complain about how they're "forced" to do m+ are concerned about the gear reward in comparison to raiding, not the challenge or season top leaderboard, as these do not contribute to their power in raids.

EDIT: I even went and re-read your first post I've replied to and you said:

I believe there should be multiple pathways (of the same level of challenge) to the "best" gear.

So yeah, we're talking here about running for gear. And atm best m+ gear stops at 15 for chest.

[shaunika123]

AP worked fine for 99% of the people playing, sucks that the 1% killed themselves on that and Legendaries, but you don't design a game for 1% of your players.

league does it and it has more users than wow ever had

just saying.

they couldve put weekly caps on it (or cap them inside raids with the cap increasing every week) and it wouldve solved the problem a 100%.

but "omg you'd feel like you had to cap yourself every week" as if we didnt have conquest point solving that issue like 8 years ago.

they wanted mythic raiders to kill themselves over it precisely cos they could be live testers of the limits of the system.

[Onikaroshi]

league does it and it has more users than wow ever had

just saying.

they couldve put weekly caps on it (or cap them inside raids with the cap increasing every week) and it wouldve solved the problem a 100%.

but "omg you'd feel like you had to cap yourself every week" as if we didnt have conquest point solving that issue like 8 years ago.

I prefer not running out of things to do, caps suck.

[nazrakin]

I wonder when people will stop using this argument.

if you are a mythic raider you are absolutely forced to do mythic+ there is no way around it.

you dont "feel" forced, you ARE forced.

People aren't going to stop using because it is a perfectly sound argument -- Or rather they'll stop using it when you stop expecting Blizzard to design the game around the preferences of a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase. And if you truly are being forced then I'm going to call 911 right now. Otherwise, "feeling" forced is correct. You're doing it because you've made the choice to value progression over fun. Or you've chosen to let a guild master tell you how to play. Whatever the case, the rest of us shouldn't suffer for it.

[shaunika123]

People aren't going to stop using because it is a perfectly sound argument -- Or rather they'll stop using it when you stop expecting Blizzard to design the game around the preferences of a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase. And if you truly are being forced then I'm going to call 911 right now. Otherwise, "feeling" forced is correct. You're doing it because you've made the choice to value progression over fun. Or you've chosen to let a guild master tell you how to play. Whatever the case, the rest of us shouldn't suffer for it.

but to me progression IS fun
farming non raid content non stop so I could play raid content isnt.

it's not really hard to differentiate between the two.

again, if raids actually provided enough AP by themselves, there would not have been an issue
but mythic+ gavee like 5 times the AP/hour raids did, and you could spam them infinitely

it's a retarded design

I prefer not running out of things to do, caps suck.

then cap the max AP traits inside mythic raids and raise them every week

also you could still do the exact same thing just for gear

if you did it for nothing but the AP it proves that it's an arbitrary time sink.

[Onikaroshi]

then cap the max AP traits inside mythic raids and raise them every week

See, now that suggestion works, rather elegantly too

[shaunika123]

See, now that suggestion works, rather elegantly too

I had that suggestion in the post you quoted me on

[Ealyssa]

if you are a mythic raider you are absolutely forced to do mythic+ there is no way around it.

You absolutly don't. I'm desenchanting weekly drops for months now on every single characters I still play. Half of our roster stopped doing their chest before Argus raiding even started, including our raid leader.

With trinkets being raid drops only, 2 legendaries and your 4P. There is litteraly no reason to do your MM+. Upgrade chance is pretty much non existent.

[shaunika123]

You absolutly don't. I'm desenchanting weekly drops for months now on every single characters I still play. Half of our roster stopped doing their chest before Argus raiding even started, including our raid leader.

With trinkets being raid drops only, 2 legendaries and your 4P. There is litteraly no reason to do your MM+. Upgrade chance is pretty much non existent.

okay where do I start

a: progress has been over for like 4 months ofc ur disenchanting shit at this point that doesnt mean it's not a MASSIVE opportunity cost to not do them DURING progress
b: there is no 4pc and legendaries in BFA so spamming mythic+ will be very VERY lucrative for gear, way better than raiding in fact.

and anyway
you could get a 985 any week, so it's a huge waste to not do them.

[Sanctos]

Sounds like the OP is simply trying to achieve beyond his means, and should just find a guild that closer matches his playstyle.

[nazrakin]

but to me progression IS fun
farming non raid content non stop so I could play raid content isnt.

it's not really hard to differentiate between the two.

again, if raids actually provided enough AP by themselves, there would not have been an issue
but mythic+ gavee like 5 times the AP/hour raids did, and you could spam them infinitely

it's a retarded design

Again? You must have your responses confused because at no point was I talking about disproportionate AP gains in mythic+ vs raids. The person I responded to was referencing gear rewards. If AP gains from raids is the issue then ask for that? As long as it doesn't limit lateral progression for the rest of us, I don't care.

[shaunika123]

Again? You must have your responses confused because at no point was I talking about disproportionate AP gains in mythic+ vs raids. The person I responded to was referencing gear rewards. If AP gains from raids is the issue then ask for that? As long as it doesn't limit lateral progression for the rest of us, I don't care.

well gear rewards will be the same shit in BFA

with legendaries and sets gone and m+ being an infinite supply of gear it'll be really rewarding to spam them 24/7

[Apolyc]

The relaxed progression-based nature of Raiding is VERY different to the rushed time-attack content that is Mythic+.

This quote specifically made me raise an eyebrow. Relaxed progression? If you are pushing content like that then it isnt a relaxed environtment.

[Jastall]

I wonder when people will stop using this argument.

if you are a mythic raider you are absolutely forced to do mythic+ there is no way around it.

you dont "feel" forced, you ARE forced.

Onoz ''forced'' to play the game for half an hour outside of raids. However will we Mythic raiders survive this infamy.

[shaunika123]

Onoz ''forced'' to play the game for half an hour outside of raids. However will we Mythic raiders survive this infamy.

you must've not played early legion
it wasnt half an hour :P
you spent more time outside raids than inside them in fact

[Jastall]

you must've not played early legion
it wasnt half an hour :P
you spent more time outside raids than inside them in fact

Because of AP and legendaries, not the weekly M+ chest. The former is far less important now, and the latter is gone entirely. Please don't move the goalposts.

[Ealyssa]

okay where do I start

You don't. You were proven wrong. You aren't forced to do MM+

Trying to move the goalposts is just weakness.

[shaunika123]

You don't. You were proven wrong. You aren't forced to do MM+

Trying to move the goalposts is just weakness.

you also arent forced to breathe
you can just die.

that's about as constructive as your post.

you dont even know what moving the goalposts means, I've been saying the exact same thing consistently throughout this thread

if you want to raid mythic, you have to do mythic+

that's a fact. try to prove it wrong all you want, but that's how it is.

[TickerDS]

As much as I understand there is only finite resources...... I think PVE instancing needs 3 pillars of content...

Raiding (LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic)
Repeat Instancing (Normal/Heroic/M+)

and a third pillar of progression 5 mans. I think Kara is the closest we have come ever to that. Something that for a few weeks takes a real team to do because of mechanics. Not just being stupid hard or we are under-geared for it...but something that a few talented friends can do in a 5 man group. Basically separate 5 man "raids" of sorts I guess? (we have seen shades of this in thinks like the ICC 5 mans and the Troll instances)

I think a large segment of the older player base needs smaller group content to do with friends, as it is harder for them to dedicate the time due to family, jobs, life, and such to get a dedicated raid group going.... but we still have a few friends we like to tool around with on some content. Kara is honestly what got my group of friends back doing stuff one night a week. We have a pool of 7-8 of us that rotated in and out based on availability and it was fun.

Once Kara got EZ moded and we out-geared it, we did pug some raids again and cleared stuff...but that was a lot harder for us to get 10 friends on for at once and we really do not like pugging.

Thus, I would like to see with every major patch a new 5 man "mini-raid", be it twisting an existing raid or instance into it...or a brand new thing. Treat it as such. Make it somewhat elite and not LFDable....and then do just like Kara and add it into the regular rotation once it gets past a certain state.

[Hurriy]

They just confirmed in the Q&A that Raiding and Mythic+ gear rewards will work the same as it did in Legion.

"Mythic 10 will yield the best possible loot once everything is unlocked, Heroic Uldir items from runs, Mythic Uldir from the weekly chest. This model worked well in Legion, so no reason to change it."

I personally hated this model. I do not enjoy Mythic+ content for a number of reasons, yet I feel like I am forced to do it as a Raider. This was my primary concern with BfA, as it was the thing I hated the most in Legion. I essentially had to faceroll content that I didn't enjoy, or I wouldn't be up to par with those who did.

The relaxed progression-based nature of Raiding is VERY different to the rushed time-attack content that is Mythic+. I find it absurd that these very different features and gameplay aspects share the same type of reward pool. I'm honestly amazed that they thought this "worked well in Legion", because I for one thought it was incredibly annoying.

If your a M+ raider pissed about this, your likely the shitter who gets sit because he was too lazy to spend the time learning the mechanics, your constantly lowest on the meters, come to raids missing buffs/reagents. You are the 1-2 people who are only in the raid because nobody better is around.

Every High raider I’ve played with has been keen to use every avenue possible to get that extra 1-2% dps increase.