Is the attack on teldrassil really that unjustified?

[Mehrunes]

prove he wanted to assassinate her and not just stop her from getting the power she wanted to steal (what he actually did). I'll wait.

Other than the fact he had no knowledge about her plans to steal anything, as he personally states multiple times in the quests after the attack? How about Genn yelling to Sylvanas to come out to face her executioner on his ship?

"their people" are also in the Alliance. Living or undead they are still Human.

They are citizens of Undercity. Forsaken are their people in this context.

The fact that it is considered a crime at all for them to want to leave the Horde is a problem in itself.

Yeah, it's not like each faction of WoW, Alliance races included, don't take lightly to traitors and defectors.

You mean the one they were forced to make under duress? "Serve me or go back in the ground"? Yeah, I would break it too.

You mean the oath you twisted? They are free to go their way if they don't want to serve Sylvanas.

There is, again, no proof of this... They got azerite so you assume they killed people to get it, yet the Horde quest giver makes no mention of the spies doing anything other than "snoopin around" when he tells the Horde player to go kill them. If the spies were killing people he'd be more concerned over that then them "snoopin"

Why would a Goblin be more concerned about something that isn't profit? Also, the Alliance spies snooping around in a Horde camp, whatever snooping referred to, is a hostile act. And regardless of the wording used, the Horde quest giver does refer to the spy activity that has been detected. Meanwhile the Alliance quest giver, despite mentioning the first group of spies, says nothing that would indicate them already having been killed or even attacked.

[Doffen]

I like how people go "b-but Genn broke the peace with Stormheim!" but always very conveniently leave out Ashran, when the Horde's paranoid kicked in again and they decided to attack the Alliance out of sheer delusion. Again.

Because the Ashran incident is "not canon" wich is all bs of course. I guess people find it hard to be playing on the Horde-side when they are playing the "morally grey" faction, even though they should embrace it for what it is. I don't get why they don't find it interesting to be the side that actually get to do stuff. Would be nice if the Alliance got to be the "morally grey" faction for once too, but that won't happen. That's why I play Horde, because that's the fun faction(imo)

[Mehrunes]

Sylvanas was the one that made that promise, actually. Garithos didn't request all of Lordaeron, he didn't request anything, he just asked her what she wanted and Sylvanas offered it to him (and lied) in exchange for helping her kill Balnazzar.

Sylvanas didn't promise him Lordaeron. She promised him his lands. Why a minor noble with no known claim on the throne from an already destroyed (in the Second War, not even the Scourge outbreak) fuckville near the Thalassian borderland thought entirety of Lordaeron to be his lands that Sylvanas promised him is for Garithos to explain, but Sylvanas actually made no such promises. Especially since when Garithos later on repeated her words in a clear context of the capital city, Sylvanas didn't even answer him.

[SleepsAtDay]

I like how people go "b-but Genn broke the peace with Stormheim!" but always very conveniently leave out Ashran, when the Horde's paranoid kicked in again and they decided to attack the Alliance out of sheer delusion. Again.

Wait. There’s lore attached to Ashran? I thought the place was just a thinly-veiled excuse to try large scale PvP again. Zero story repercussions, like Tol Barad and Wintergrasp before it.

I mean, personal opinion here, but “you attacked at Ashran” carries about as much story weight to me as “you challenged me to a pie eating contest.”

[rainhard]

The SI;7 Agents bring Azerite to Shaw and Anduin before the Alliance Player gets to Silithus. Which means they got it from the Miners they were spying on. There's no crates of Azerite lying around for the spies to steal it out of. Wonder where they got it...

Nah, seriously, in the first chapter of Before the Storm, Anduin gets the rock from Shaw. Orders him to get all his best men on it. Basically it's the cutscene straight from Legion but longer. Sylvanas doesn't have her interaction with Gallywix until chapter 3. Everything in the rest of the book is presented as occurring in chronological order, including the jarring "Jump Cuts" during the Arathi Highlands sequence where the narrative's focus keeps changing from Anduin to Sylvanas to Calia. There's no reason to believe that the rest of the book isn't, also, in Chronological order.

Which means the Alliance started killing goblins before the Horde retaliated.

In the alliance and horde eplogue you can see how they get it.

[The Stormbringer]

Because you're trespassing in a Horde camp that the Horde forces have the right to defend? The very presence of the Alliance player in it is already a violation of peace.

A Horde camp, really? With no Horde flags or symbols? In a giant radius around the massive sword that is a threat to the very planet and therefore an area that ALL PEOPLE (well, barring Twilight Cultists) should have access too? I don't buy it, sorry.

[Mehrunes]

Why would the Alliance offer peace when every time they try it ends up biting them in the ass? Sylvanas isn't just a threat to the Alliance she is a threat to all life on Azeroth

You mean like the time when they started the previous faction war? That offer of peace? And the idea that Sylvanas is threat to all life on Azeroth is unsubstantiated.

Also had Sylvanas enslaved the Valkyr race only those she deemed worthy would be rezed. Was Genn not justified in stopping her especially when at least half the heroes of Azeroth would perma die which in turn would make the defenses of Azeroth weaker and eventually make it easier to be corrupted by the void lords?

Not only did you pull Sylvanas' decision-making in regards to whom she'd ressurect out of your nowhere, do explain how her resurrecting people in any capacity would result in lower defenses when contrasted to the situation without Sylvanas, when no one is exactly resurrecting them right now?

[Steampunkette]

A Horde camp, really? With no Horde flags or symbols? In a giant radius around the massive sword that is a threat to the very planet and therefore an area that ALL PEOPLE (well, barring Twilight Cultists) should have access too? I don't buy it, sorry.

Ahhh... The Christopher Columbus argument.

"I claim this land for Spain!"

"But we already live here."

"But do you have a flag?"

"Well... no?"

"Well, then, you can't have a country! No Flag no Country, those are the rules that I just made up."

(Eddie Izzard)

[Doffen]

Ahhh... The Christopher Columbus argument.

"I claim this land for Spain!"

"But we already live here."

"But do you have a flag?"

"Well... no?"

"Well, then, you can't have a country! No Flag no Country, those are the rules that I just made up."

(Eddie Izzard)

I bet they didn't have a big fucking sword in the middle of America when he arrived.

[s3ge]

I agree about the initial attack in Stormheim, but as for Sylvanas maintaining the "security" of her entire race by capturing and enslaving another being that had never harmed her as well as any subsequent beings it might otherwise produce - well, that would fall firmly under the heading of "not good things to allow." Sylvanas had no right to Eyir or her Val'kyr, even if it was to her or the Forsaken's benefit - not that Genn cared overly about that, but the end-result of Genn's interference produced a good thing (freeing Eyir from possible eternal bondage).

We literally travel through an arena by murdering almost everything in our path. There are countless quests were we mindcontrol someone, torture them or force them to do something they really, really do not want to do - Alliance and Horde. But Eyir is where you draw the line. We have to kill countless of her brothers and sisters to get to this point, but using the lantern goes to far!

Sylvanas could have used an army of immortal Forsaken to defeat the Legion invasion, what exactly does Odyn use his powers for - except for killing Skovald's family of course.

Eyir is already eternally bound to Odyn and his death cult. We might as well say that Sylvanas tried to free her from his grasp since he is not quite opposed to mindcontrolling people and punishing them based an his rather arbitrary ideals.

[Mehrunes]

Well then clearly they felt it was necessary.

And yet Anduin, the guy that gave that order in the first place, did not.

Simple fact of the matter is it shouldn't be.

They just wanted to leave, that's not sedition.

They are civilians, they should be allowed to leave whenever the fuck they please.

TIL that wanting to move to another country to be with their families is considered treason.

Treason should not be a crime? I mean, sure, you're free to think so, but why should the Forsaken care and why do you levy this argument only against them when no faction takes it lightly? And they weren't just random civilians. They were high ranking officials, leaders of Undercity in Sylvanas' absence. They don't get to do whatever the fuck they please. And wanting to move to another country? How about wanting to move to an enemy country, in a manner that broke the rules of the Gathering? Try to stop ignoring inconvenient tidbits.

That's fucking comical coming from you.

Meanwhile here you are lying out of your ass in order to deflect from the fact you already got caught on a lie over the exact same subtopic in the very next paragraph. Fascinating.

Yes, because the second meant immediate death, and the third meant death a little later. They had no choice but serve or die.

The third meant no such thing, that's just you trying to squirm out of getting caught in a lie. They had the choice to join, die or go their way and your pitiful mental gymnastics here don't change that.

I'm done dealing with you, have fun talking to yourself from here on out.

"Someone caught my in multiple lies and other completely honest behavior? Welp, time for some grandstanding of publicly ignoring them! That will totally put a smokescreen on the situation and mask the weakness of my arguments /s"

[Feanoro]

If Anduin was actually about peace, he'd actually punish Genn and Rogers for their crimes against peace *follows with head canon sperging*

You do understand he's not an absolute dictator warchief?

Side comment, it'd be nice if they'd stop showing two wildly different scenarios, maybe then Horde players would stop frothing at the mouth at Alliance players.

Why a minor noble with no known claim on the throne from an already destroyed (in the Second War, not even the Scourge outbreak) fuckville near the Thalassian borderland thought entirety of Lordaeron to be his lands

To his knowledge, he was the highest ranking survivor.

Infracted.

[oplawlz]

I'm OK with it.

[Steampunkette]

I bet they didn't have a big fucking sword in the middle of America when he arrived.

Probably not. I mean. Can we, really, be sure?

But on a less funny note: The Bilgewater Cartel moves into the area to start a mining operation in unclaimed territory, thus claiming a portion of that territory for the Bilgewater Cartel (And by extension the Horde, since the BC is part of it).

The Alliance sends spies who find out about the Azerite by watching the Bilgewater, steal a sliver, and send it to Stormwind for Shaw to show to Anduin. Anduin tells Shaw to send his best people to handle it, Shaw sends the Alliance PC and the player murders some goblins to steal the Azerite they've mined. 2 chapters later, Sylvanas learns about the Azerite and tells Nathanos to send his people down to secure it. He sends the Horde PC and the player kills the spies who are still watching the mining operation after the Alliance PC has murdered the Goblins.

The idea that they didn't mark the area with a bunch of Horde Flags somehow invalidates their claims and right to defend themselves is laughable at best.

[TheFirstOnes]

Dude you just summed up American foreign policy.

Ayyyeeeeeee........wha?

[The Stormbringer]

Ahhh... The Christopher Columbus argument.

"I claim this land for Spain!"

"But we already live here."

"But do you have a flag?"

"Well... no?"

"Well, then, you can't have a country! No Flag no Country, those are the rules that I just made up."

(Eddie Izzard)

The Horde has plenty of flags, and they love to post them up around their camps, territory, settlements, towns, cities, etcetera. The fact that there were none around the big-ass sword is telling enough that they were trying to keep it a secret, because they knew they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

And you're also not responding to the other part of my argument. This sword is damaging the planet itself, and therefore a threat to everyone. How exactly does the HORDE get to make a claim to surrounding it and studying it? Why are they the only ones allowed to come close, lest the miners attack you with explosives, pick-axes, and shredders?

[Nerovar]

Treason should not be a crime? I mean, sure, you're free to think so, but why should the Forsaken care and why do you levy this argument only against them when no faction takes it lightly? And they weren't just random civilians. They were high ranking officials, leaders of Undercity in Sylvanas' absence. They don't get to do whatever the fuck they please. And wanting to move to another country? How about wanting to move to an enemy country, in a manner that broke the rules of the Gathering? Try to stop ignoring inconvenient tidbits.

Pretty sure they weren't all high ranking officials. Feel free to quote the book if I'm wrong. Also I'm sure the families of the people who died trying to flee the German Democratic Republic will be glad to hear that it was okay for them to get shot because they were traitors after all. Glad we can close that chapter.

[Steampunkette]

We literally travel through an arena by murdering almost everything in our path. There are countless quests were we mindcontrol someone, torture them or force them to do something they really, really do not want to do - Alliance and Horde. But Eyir is where you draw the line. We have to kill countless of her brothers and sisters to get to this point, but using the lantern goes to far!

Sylvanas could have used an army of immortal Forsaken to defeat the Legion invasion, what exactly does Odyn use his powers for - except for killing Skovald's family of course.

Eyir is already eternally bound to Odyn and his death cult. We might as well say that Sylvanas tried to free her from his grasp since he is not quite opposed to mindcontrolling people and punishing them based an his rather arbitrary ideals.

Eyir is just an excuse to absolve Genn Greymane of all wrongdoing. Nothing more.

Though Odyn also used his power to create the Val'kyr by murdering an innocent woman and enslaving her to his divine will, then forced her to grab dead Vrykul to bring to his halls so that he could send them out to fight the Legion when the time came.

[Doffen]

Probably not. I mean. Can we, really, be sure?

But on a less funny note: The Bilgewater Cartel moves into the area to start a mining operation in unclaimed territory, thus claiming a portion of that territory for the Bilgewater Cartel (And by extension the Horde, since the BC is part of it).

The Alliance sends spies who find out about the Azerite by watching the Bilgewater, steal a sliver, and send it to Stormwind for Shaw to show to Anduin. Anduin tells Shaw to send his best people to handle it, Shaw sends the Alliance PC and the player murders some goblins to steal the Azerite they've mined. 2 chapters later, Sylvanas learns about the Azerite and tells Nathanos to send his people down to secure it. He sends the Horde PC and the player kills the spies who are still watching the mining operation after the Alliance PC has murdered the Goblins.

The idea that they didn't mark the area with a bunch of Horde Flags somehow invalidates their claims and right to defend themselves is laughable at best.

Nah, they got all the right to defend themself, just like we have irl. It's more the neutrality of the zone and that Sargeras put his freakin sword in the middle of it. It "should" have been a joined thing among the Alliance and the Horde to fix it, but they don't because of new expansion :> And Sylvanas is the one who got intentions of actually using it against the Alliance. Anduin and the rest just retaliate, like always.

[Steampunkette]

The Horde has plenty of flags, and they love to post them up around their camps, territory, settlements, towns, cities, etcetera. The fact that there were none around the big-ass sword is telling enough that they were trying to keep it a secret, because they knew they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

And you're also not responding to the other part of my argument. This sword is damaging the planet itself, and therefore a threat to everyone. How exactly does the HORDE get to make a claim to surrounding it and studying it? Why are they the only ones allowed to come close, lest the miners attack you with explosives, pick-axes, and shredders?

'Cause they got there, first, and staked a claim? *shrug* Their only claimed area is the Northeast section. The Alliance has the rest of the entire zone up to and including the foot of the sword to check out or snag some Azerite. Instead they went to the Goblin-infested section to kill them and take their stuff.

Also, please stop with the concern-trolling about the damned sword..? Anduin knows about it and whinges over it in chapter 8 after sending people to gather as much Azerite as they could in Chapter 1 (By killing Goblin Miners), and yet in BFA he's using it to make Azerite-Powered weaponry. So either it's not killing the planet nearly so much as you'd like to claim when the Horde grabs the shit, or Anduin is willing to kill Azeroth to shoot the Horde with her blood.