Sylvanas x Burning of Teldrassil vs. Arthas x Culling of Stratholme - Morally Grayer?

[vertigo12]

If judging by the events which happened in WoW history, would you consider Sylvanas a now Horde leader from the used to be Alliance faction burning an Alliance Capital vs. Arthas the supposed to be crowned king and suppose to be leader as a mass executioner of his very own people from the city of Stratholme would Arthras and his time as a core Alliance NPC resolve into Sylvanas a morally grayer leader now that they both have parallel in Warbringers:Sylvanas?

Focus: Massacre, death of innocent lives and Burning-Arson

Innocent's lives were not spared.
ToB there are few survivor. CoT few or none at all.
Imminent war vs. Immenent scourge attack

Further comparison and contrast
- Betrayal of public trust. The Stratholme villagers might perceive Arthras' action as inhumane and evil. It might appear so as well from other allies in Human alliance.
Sylvanas's action cause others to question her decision as it might contradict what Horde stands for.

[Hitei]

Is it even a contest?

Most of stratholme was infected and turning. There was not much to do, and no reliable way to tell who was or wasn't at risk. It was either leave Stratholme alone and end up with a massive city of undead, or kill as many people as he could before to euthanize them and reduce the mount of undead in the area.

Teldrassil was a tree full of innocent people that weren't at risk of anything other than Sylvanas' own forces in a war she unilaterally started for her own goals.

The problem with this parallel, is that the parallel isn't Culling Arthas and modern Sylvanas, it's Arthas marching on Lordaeron and Quel'thalas, and modern Sylvanas.

[vertigo12]

Is it even a contest?

Most of stratholme was infected and turning. There was not much to do, and no reliable way to tell who was or wasn't at risk. It was either leave Stratholme alone and end up with a massive city of undead, or kill as many people as he could before to euthanize them and reduce the mount of undead in the area.

Teldrassil was a tree full of innocent people that weren't at risk of anything other than Sylvanas' own forces in a war she unilaterally started for her own goals.

The problem with this parallel, is that the parallel isn't Culling Arthas and modern Sylvanas, it's Arthas marching on Lordaeron and Quel'thalas, and modern Sylvanas.

You may draw parallel on invasion of Quel'thalas to Burning of Teldrassil although I focused more on the "burning" part in between Culling and BoT.

Not actually an actual contest but careful analysis. Both events happened to be an invasion of territory and mass murder and arson.

[Tarba]

Both are legitimate.
Destroying a main city of an opposite faction or the necessary purge of Stratholm. No problem with it.

[Kathranis]

Stratholme was infected with the plague of undeath.

Teldrassil was infected with the curse of life.


If we were to look at it from their respective perspectives, I would say it's actually quite similar.

[Hitei]

You may draw parallel on invasion of Quel'thalas to Burning of Teldrassil although I focused more on the "burning" part in between Culling and BoT.

Not actually an actual contest but careful analysis. Both events happened to be an invasion of territory and mass murder and arson.

That is an extremely, extremely poor comparison. The wrath gate also involved invasion of territory, killing and burning things. That doesn't make Ysera suddenly Arthas or Sylvanas. I'm not drawing a parallel between the invasion of Quel'thalas and the Burning of teldrassil. That is literally the exact comparison that is made in warbringers.

[Trassk]

Wasn't Arthas already a death Knight by then summoning the scourge when attacking quel'thalas?

So really if you want that comparison, sylvanas is as much a souless evil b**ch who's the enemy of the living.

[Hubbl3]

Wasn't Arthas already a death Knight by then summoning the scourge.

What?! Lol, learn the lore.

[Trassk]

What?! Lol, learn the lore.

Learn to read

[Dastreus]

Sylvanas burning Teldrassil is more like Arthas invading Quel'thalas, than purging Stratholme. There was also some mildly debatable morals for Arthas' Stratholme purge, when there is no moral justification at all for the Teldrassil act.

[Hubbl3]

Learn to read

My bad, thought you were replying to the thread not the person above you.

[Eats Compost]

No contest. There's some entire ethical schools of thought that say in no unclear terms that yes, in the situation Arthas was in, killing the doomed infected before they could turn - when there was absolutely no alternative available that didn't involve them all dying horrible deaths anyway - was the best way forward. Not all codes of ethic will come to that conclusion, but that's exactly what makes it morally grey; Uther and Arthas had a legitimate disagreement about what was the right thing to do.

Sylvanas, on the other hand, went for the execution of an idea with questionable benefits as part of a war, also with questionable benefits, that she started. Right now, we have been given no reason to think that the Alliance OR Horde would be any better off if Sylvanas didn't start a war and make it blow up with her actions at (and prior to) Teldrassil. Even an extreme position along the lines of "literally anything is okay if it's for the Horde's benefit" doesn't really pan out, for that reason.

It'll become a bit more obvious when her spooky ulterior motive is inevitably revealed.

[Trassk]

Sylvanas burning Teldrassil is more like Arthas invading Quel'thalas, than purging Stratholme. There was also some mildly debatable morals for Arthas' Stratholme purge, when there is no moral justification at all for the Teldrassil act.

When you think, sylvanas is the worst in this. When Arthas purged stratholme, it was to keep the plague from spreading. Though they were innocent, he just wanted to protect the rest of his kingdom, doing 'what others wouldn't do', getting his hands dirty to do it, so he had a moral enough reason to do so.
Him attacking quel'thalas was when he was already an undead so he wasn't a moral or just person anymore but a monster who stood against the living.

Sylvanas is worse because even though she's an undead like Arthas was, she is the leader of the horde, and the modern horde has shown itself to care enough about the living to not just kill off innocent people, or fight to save the world from major threats. But none of that mattered to her.

[vipers]

At least Arthas got reason to attack but Sylvanas attack without reason

[vertigo12]

Is it even a contest?

Most of stratholme was infected and turning. There was not much to do, and no reliable way to tell who was or wasn't at risk. It was either leave Stratholme alone and end up with a massive city of undead, or kill as many people as he could before to euthanize them and reduce the mount of undead in the area.

Teldrassil was a tree full of innocent people that weren't at risk of anything other than Sylvanas' own forces in a war she unilaterally started for her own goals.

The problem with this parallel, is that the parallel isn't Culling Arthas and modern Sylvanas, it's Arthas marching on Lordaeron and Quel'thalas, and modern Sylvanas.

The thing is whether Arthas the Paladin or Arthas the Dk, those who died from the culling or turned due to the plague will all end up Undead.

In BoT not everybody was turned undead not unless Sylvanas will march towards the charcoal stump and raised those who died.

[TheFirstOnes]

The thing is whether Arthas the Paladin or Arthas the Dk, those who died from the culling or turned due to the plague will all end up Undead.

In BoT not everybody was turned undead not unless Sylvanas will march towards the charcoal stump and raised those who died.

You also have to realize this:

In WC3, there was no way to stop it at that moment. No cure, no nothing. That's why Arthas made the risk. To spare everyone of the plague known at Undeath.

And also, Teldrassil (as well as the people) would be ash now. So, there's no point for as to why Sylvanas would even bother raising ashes from the ground. Similar thing with the Legion, ya know? Why raise Varian's ashes, and torment his soul? When you can do that with the other, more unfortunate ones?

Oh, and besides, Sylvanas is raising everyone from Darkshore. Why else did she send Nathanos? lol

[vertigo12]

You also have to realize this:

In WC3, there was no way to stop it at that moment. No cure, no nothing. That's why Arthas made the risk. To spare everyone of the plague known at Undeath.

And also, Teldrassil (as well as the people) would be ash now. So, there's no point for as to why Sylvanas would even bother raising ashes from the ground. Similar thing with the Legion, ya know? Why raise Varian's ashes, and torment his soul? When you can do that with the other, more unfortunate ones?

Oh, and besides, Sylvanas is raising everyone from Darkshore. Why else did she send Nathanos? lol

Surely those ashen tree stump would somehow be swarmed with wisps or we might haven't seen a banshee queen utilizing wisps to become corporeal undead once again now she have val'kyr.

Yes that was one of the reasons why those body count are still considered "human resources". There is a clash of ower at play since Malfurion is just around the place and he might use the wisps there for either offensive purposes this time. I think Malfurion has an upperhand in rounding them up faster.

[Deleted]

Did you forgot Jaina genocide to horde mages on Dalaran? After that se would to do another genocide in Orgrimmar..

[derpkitteh]

it's not even comparable.

the culling of stratholme could have potentially weakened or stopped the scourge early had arthas not fallen for mal'ganis' bait. it's morally grey, because you're killing innocent people who just had the bad fortune to be infected by the enemy. it's actually morally grey.

the burning of teldrassil is morally evil, it's not grey. it's a genocide.

[Evilfish]

So how would you have handled Stratholme?