Anduin rallies people to his cause; Sylvanas pushes them away.

[Aucald]

Sylvanas was finally successful is breaking the faith between the alliance members. The splinters will start to tear them apart.

That was part and parcel of her plan, I believe - to create a "psychic wound" that would bleed the Alliance out, sapping it of its will to fight (either completely or as a cohesive entity). That at least seems to be working for Sylvanas thus far.

[GreenJesus]

That was part and parcel of her plan, I believe - to create a "psychic wound" that would bleed the Alliance out, sapping it of its will to fight (either completely or as a cohesive entity). That at least seems to be working for Sylvanas thus far.

It was a little delayed but it finally worked out in the end. Although if I were her I wouldn't enrage demigods of nature and the priestess of Elune.. lol too bad Saurfang pussied out.

[Powerogue]

Potentially. He's...left the door open so to speak.

The flame wars though if that were to happen. Not just Saurfang, but an entire portion of the horde just straight up defecting to the Alliance as you seem to be implying, until Sylvanas is outnumbered.

Oh man that would be riveting to watch.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Potentially. He's...left the door open so to speak.

The flame wars though if that were to happen. Not just Saurfang, but an entire portion of the horde just straight up defecting to the Alliance as you seem to be implying, until Sylvanas is outnumbered.

Oh man that would be riveting to watch.

I don't think they would ever defect to Alliance. More likely to stage a coupe, forcing Sylvanas to fight on two fronts. Given that Sylvanas is based in Orgrimmar now, not Undercity, I wouldn't think a coupe led by Orcs could be easy for her.

[Qualia]

There are Night Elves on Zandalar. For reasons. I don't get the timeline of events.

Personally, seeing that they mellowed the conversation and what Genn said a bit, I assume that - while there are disagreements - the NE hadn't abandoned the fight against the Horde together with the Alliance yet. They simply split themselves to do both (fighting by themselves and their allies on Darkshore AND fighting together with the Alliance somewhere else) at the same time.

[Felixon]

Sylvanas was finally successful is breaking the faith between the alliance members. The splinters will start to tear them apart.

Sylvanas was a such an amazing strategist,that her own faction is split apart. If Anduin disagreed with Tyrande's decision to take back Darkshore,then Saurfang is already planning how to take down Sylvanas. This war,the war she started,will be her own undoing.

[Archibalde]

Sylvanas has yet to have a whole race bail to do their own thing. Mostly because despite being a cartoon villain, her fellow leaders are spineless henchmen.

It's easy to call them spineless, but another to look at what they are up against. Sylvanas has been raising Human corpses for a while now, corpses that she created when she sent her troops to kill them. Recently she even started using her plague on her own troops to raise both enemies and allies alike. You don't simply rush in a battle with a genocidal maniac, especially not one that has the power to bind you into eternal servitude if she defeats you.

On top of that Sylvanas has put all the Horde racial leaders in a very tough spot. She's making them fight a taxing war on the Alliance, they don't have the resources or the time right now to also pull off a successful rebellion. Lore-wise the Horde's forces are supposed to be stretched fairly thin since the Siege of Orgrimmar, and all our recent allies have been people who have suffered massive losses as well so it's not accomplishing much to bolster our numbers. The Horde is living up to its origin at the moment: it's several groups that don't necessarily like each other but they have to work together in order to survive.

[laplacedemon]

Sylvanas was finally successful is breaking the faith between the alliance members. The splinters will start to tear them apart.

Yeah that 10 seconds of discord they had will totally tear down the Alliance. You guys are reading too much into it, I'm sure Anduin will start calling Tyrande "Aunt" in 8.2.

[Maxilian]

Yea he totally rallies night elves to his cause in 8.1, tyrande basically tells him to F off.

At least he have papa wolf salvage the situation.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah that 10 seconds of discord they had will totally tear down the Alliance. You guys are reading too much into it, I'm sure Anduin will start calling Tyrande "Aunt" in 8.2.

The Aunt thing is not new, is how Anduin have always called Jaina in the comics and books.

[laplacedemon]

The Aunt thing is not new, is how Anduin have always called Jaina in the comics and books.

I didn't want to imply otherwise, just thought it would be a fitting way to describe how close Alliance leaders will be after this conflict.

[Airwaves]

Or it will lead to Anduin getting assassinated by someone he trusts. Say an orc like his grandfather. An orc he just let out of gaol.

[tangers58]

In the end, this will be her undoing.

Anduin bends over for anyone that comes along. There is no accountability with him as king, disobey his orders? No consequences. Wouldn't even have this war if he had manned up when Genn attacked the horde... or when Shaw attacked the horde... or when he literally brought Calia Menethil to again... attack the horde.

[Rilec]

Well, of late, Tyrande '10 000 years of experience in leading armies' Whisperwind seems to channel her inner orc and makes important decisions out of emotional unrest instead of actually thinking about what needs doing.

Not as of late. Every decision we've ever seen Tyrande make has been in a fit of emotion. For a 10k+ year old veteran, all she ever seems to do is look at the now instead of the future, and she's willing to burn everything around her whenever she acts. In WC3, her first reaction to resistance from her own people is to slaughter them. In A Little Patience she is willing to sacrifice a large number of Night Elves by rushing the front door in order to kill some Horde (and then watched Varian find a better way). Now in Darkshore she emotionally stomps off to a battlefield with no thoughts of reinforcements, supply lines or an exit strategy/rebuild phase. Regardless of the fact that the Alliance is scraping the bottom of the barrel for resources/soldiers, she expects everyone to drop what they're doing and focus on what she wants without any reasoning whatsoever.

Tyrande is an emotional time bomb who is never shown to make tactical decisions or lead in an effective manner. She just does random stuff because she feels like it and everyone else has to pick up the pieces and make it work.

[Deleted]

If the title was more accurately adjusted to "Anduin rallies traitors to his cause; Sylvanas pushes them away" then we'd be onto a winner.

[Super Dickmann]

It's easy to call them spineless, but another to look at what they are up against. Sylvanas has been raising Human corpses for a while now, corpses that she created when she sent her troops to kill them. Recently she even started using her plague on her own troops to raise both enemies and allies alike. You don't simply rush in a battle with a genocidal maniac, especially not one that has the power to bind you into eternal servitude if she defeats you.

On top of that Sylvanas has put all the Horde racial leaders in a very tough spot. She's making them fight a taxing war on the Alliance, they don't have the resources or the time right now to also pull off a successful rebellion. Lore-wise the Horde's forces are supposed to be stretched fairly thin since the Siege of Orgrimmar, and all our recent allies have been people who have suffered massive losses as well so it's not accomplishing much to bolster our numbers. The Horde is living up to its origin at the moment: it's several groups that don't necessarily like each other but they have to work together in order to survive.

Thing is, Sylvanas' influence is fictive. While I'd argue the Forsaken are the most powerful race currently in the Horde, helped along by the fact that should she wish to, Sylvanas could mass raise people to her service, they can't wage a civil war and an outside war at the same time. All Baine and company need to do to be less laughable is to leverage their influence. To stress to Sylvanas that she won't be able to rely on their support unless she changes things. That'd be in violation of the Blood Oath of course, but it's not like that stopped Baine before. On top of this, Sylvanas has purposefully made next to no moves against any of them except Saurfang, who is a traitor. Even her use of the Blight was a one-time tactical decision which was born out in terms of results. She knows her support is based on influence and she can't risk compromising it.

Which makes raising Derek the way she did even more bizzare if one doesn't view it as a power move. The only way it can be viewed as a move that's not stupid is if it's a psychological tactic. I.e, by having a weakened Talanji commit sacrilege in crucifying Derek over Bwonsamdi's statue and having Baine move along, she makes them complicit in her actions and further assures their loyalty by making whatever fate befalls her also their fate.

[Deleted]

Anduin bends over for anyone that comes along. There is no accountability with him as king, disobey his orders? No consequences. Wouldn't even have this war if he had manned up when Genn attacked the horde... or when Shaw attacked the horde... or when he literally brought Calia Menethil to again... attack the horde.

This right here. Anduin just waddled his finger at Genn. He tried to kill the Warchief of The Horde in times of peace during The Legion invasion.

Anduin did nothing. The only thing he did was installing spies everywhere in Orgrimmar to keep a watch onto the Horde.

Sylvanas wasn't the only one that wanted this war. Saurfang wanted it to. I hope Blizzard doesn't forget that Saurfang was pretty angered with Anduin in a good war. But I'm sure with the quality of Blizzard's writing they hug it out by the end of the expansion and the Horde becomes a vassal of Stormwind.

[Dastreus]

One can hope the Alliance and Horde splinter into two separate factions so we then have four factions.

Alliance: Stormwind Humans, Bronzebeard Dwarves, Dark Irons, Void Elves, Gnomes & Lightforged.

Wardens: Night Elves, Worgen, Kul'tirans & Draenei

Horde: Orcs, Darkspears, Mag'har, Tauren, Highmountain & Goblins.

Sylvanas' Horde: Undead, Blood Elves, Nightborne & Zandalari.

No. Void elves belong with Draenei and Nelven allies.

- - - Updated - - -

Anduin bends over for anyone that comes along. There is no accountability with him as king, disobey his orders? No consequences. Wouldn't even have this war if he had manned up when Genn attacked the horde... or when Shaw attacked the horde... or when he literally brought Calia Menethil to again... attack the horde.

Shaw attacked the horde? The goblins pushed everyone out of Silithus, an act that is easily taken as aggressive. Then, SI:7 set up operations. Shaw retaliated against the goblins.

And Calia??? Attack the horde?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Yeah because her being there, cloaked, and getting killed by Sylvanas without her flinging a single spell is Calia attacking the horde.

[Mehrunes]

Genn and Tyrande are super rallied right now. They just opened another front despite the Alliance being stretched too thin to do so and as such did so without Alliance's full support. And somehow, despite the strongest Alliance faction already resorting to peasant conscription, that front doesn't instantly collapse.

Well, of late, Tyrande '10 000 years of experience in leading armies' Whisperwind seems to channel her inner orc and makes important decisions out of emotional unrest instead of actually thinking about what needs doing.

Tyrande doesn't really seem to have 10000 years of experience. More like 3-4. She had to be schooled on the basics of the basics by Varian in 5.1.

[Deleted]

One can hope the Alliance and Horde splinter into two separate factions so we then have four factions.

Alliance: Stormwind Humans, Bronzebeard Dwarves, Dark Irons, Void Elves, Gnomes & Lightforged.

Wardens: Night Elves, Worgen, Kul'tirans & Draenei

Horde: Orcs, Darkspears, Mag'har, Tauren, Highmountain & Goblins.

Sylvanas' Horde: Undead, Blood Elves, Nightborne & Zandalari.

I hope this is were its heading. The inclusion of Night Elves in the alliance and Forsaken in the horde has been a problem since vanilla. A problem for developing faction personality in the two coalitions, and a problem for how the leading factions have outshined and stopped the development of both night elves and undead. Rottenpussy's horde can just be called forsaken, circle for the elves.

Also, I wouldn't discard the possibility of merging the tribal races of the horde with the N.Elves for three factions. I do not see Greymane and Jaina abandoning Wrynn.

[Mehrunes]

On top of that Sylvanas has put all the Horde racial leaders in a very tough spot. She's making them fight a taxing war on the Alliance, they don't have the resources or the time right now to also pull off a successful rebellion. Lore-wise the Horde's forces are supposed to be stretched fairly thin since the Siege of Orgrimmar, and all our recent allies have been people who have suffered massive losses as well so it's not accomplishing much to bolster our numbers. The Horde is living up to its origin at the moment: it's several groups that don't necessarily like each other but they have to work together in order to survive.

There is nothing to support the notion that the Horde was stretched too thin since SoO. Even the majority of the Orcs turned against Garrosh. In fact, most of the Orcs loyal to Garrosh in the raid turned out to be Dragonmaw and Mag'har. I.e. the Orcs that joined long after the formation of the New Horde. The core of Orc-kind did not follow him and that core was already doing fine against the Alliance before the addition of the Orcs like the Dragonmaw.

Meanwhile Alliance lost their largest fortress on the planet to the Iron Horde, they lost the entirety of Taylor's expedition, they lost more than half of its forces at Lordaeron. Hell, by the parameters of faction strength established by Blizzard in A Good War, the Alliance shouldn't have been able to even successfully land in Tirisfal. The only reason why the entire Alliance army isn't currently feeding the region's plagued fish is its monumental plot armor.

And Horde is still ahead of the Alliance in terms of allied races. Lightforged Draenei had been hunted by the Legion for millennia and had to constantly hide from them. Void Elves are a bunch of rejects from Silvermoon. Dark Irons had already been in the Alliance and as such they aren't actually an addition in BfA. Kul Tirans are the only bigger force and they are roughly equivalent to the Zandalari.