So, item levels are getting spiked for no reason. Again.

[Irian]

OP, it's also worth noting the sheer value of item level these days. I have no idea why but stats have never felt more drastic than they have in the past couple of expansions. For some reason 5-10 ilvls can account for ~20-30% more DPS depending on what class you play.

I feel like not enough people notice this and are pointing it out. Why the hell does there need to be such a massive disparity between two players within such a small gap of gear?

[eduwneso]

Mobs gain power at 20% the rate you do. So it's something like you gain 50% they gain 10%. To prevent a repeat of MoP when a geared raider could gather an entire subzone of mantid, barely take a scratch, and flatten them in two globals.

oh, thanks for the info man, so it's not like he said, 50% stronger you kill the mobs 5% faster.

I at least kill them 30% faster comparing my fury warrior 340 to 374

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Yes we do but it isnt like you get 50% stroinger you kill 50% faster. it is more like you get 50% stronger you kill 5% faster.

cparle87 explained the proportions of the scaling just above!

[Whistl3r]

They were still considered the original welfare epics by a lot of players. I remember a meme from ages ago that was basically a level 1 dwarf covered in BoJ with the caption "t6 gear revealed". Personally I don't see what the big deal is, even in TBC and WotLK the badge gear wasn't optimal compared to current tier raid drops and required a decent amount of dedication to get. On top of that, they were usually only for specific gear slots and nowhere near a full set.

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He's not wearing a tinfoil hat, you're wearing blinders.

And you had to farm heroics to get them in TBC? Hardly "welfare"
certainly nothing like this expansion. You can ding 120 once new patch drops and be raiding that teir heroic in a week.

[Unholyground]

Hopefully WoW at some point takes a page from Guild Wars 2 and makes progression more than just about your items.

[bullseyed]

But players love to feel power increase, don't they? I certainly do! If I'm doing 12k DPS with 385 gear, I'm expecting to do 20k dps with 415 gear, not some tiny increase like +2k dps per raid tier. How boring that would be!

If you were doing 12k with 385, there might be a problem. That is very low.

[rohoz]

And you had to farm heroics to get them in TBC? Hardly "welfare"
certainly nothing like this expansion. You can ding 120 once new patch drops and be raiding that teir heroic in a week.

The amount of content you do is directly related to how quickly you gear up. Now and then. Also, magister's terrace gave you gear comparable to T5.

[lappee]

Didn't expect a tinfoil hat from you. But then again, how well do you know people on the internet, really?

Because "I don't want to believe things that are based on facts but can't argue against them in any intelligent way so he must be wearing TINFOIL!!!!" is a thing for some people, including you.

Let's transplant the raiding scenario from BC over to Legion, why don't we.
Half of raiders would do EN and see just a bit of ToV. About a third of raiders would get to see some of ToS. And only like 5% of raiders, which meant like 1% of the total playerbase, would get to see Antorus. Can you really see the modern playerbase accepting this?

Thats assuming people never got better at the game, which is highly unlikely (if it didn't happen, then why do people say Vanilla etc. wasn't hard at all). Yes I'd say people would accept it (unless by "modern playerbase" you mean the instant gratification peeps, then no. They're going whine no matter what.), they would have a reason to get better at the game. It was fine for everyone but Blizzard in Vanilla/TBC since "they couldn't afford" development time for things that only a small percentage got to see (which is faulty in itself because it creates goals etc. for people, so even if people didn't see it when it was in current expansion it still was a goal for people).

[Chrotesque]

I remember the middle of Cata. There were two dungeons together in their own queue. ZG and ZA. I got sooooo tired running those over and over.

Exactly what I felt as well, at first it was nice because they were fresh and new and that novelty wore off super quick, due to it being 2 ... :/

[bullseyed]

New raids are not a catch up mechanism, since they were the only endgame back then. The badges were. Which we could get by running old heroic dungeons. So exactly the same new_gear_by_old_content-mechanism we have today. We just have a lot more choice how to acquire the catch up gear, which is a good thing.

Badge gear was from the previous tier, so the comparable here would be 370 gear.

[Whistl3r]

The amount of content you do is directly related to how quickly you gear up. Now and then. Also, magister's terrace gave you gear comparable to T5.

so 2 tiers below the current raid tier. Seems fair. The guys doing the hardest content had the best gear, again fair.

[snackfeat]

exept it has been since release of Dire Maul with first catch up gear in wow

If Dire Maul dropped BWL level gear then you would have had a point.

[Akka]

The shit, where have you been like last 15 years? New raid tier - higher ilvls across the board. What's new here?

I swear some lemmings here will bitch about anything. I bet next thread will be about quitting the game because Alliance color is blue and Horde is red.

Welcome to World of WarCraft that has been like this for 15 years.

exept it has been since release of Dire Maul with first catch up gear in wow

Stop being such fucking idiots.

Entire Vanilla went from ilvl 56 to 96, that's about 50 % more budget from 5-man to four tiers (MC, BWL, AQ, Naxx), as budget at the time was linear with ilvl.
TBC went from ilvl 105 to ilvl 154, that's 50 % more budget from 5-man to four tiers (T4, T5, T6, Sunwell).
In WotLK, budget formula changed from linear to exponential, so that +1 ilvl = +1 % budget (so 200 to 300 is not +50 % but +100 %). So in WotLK, you went from ilvl 200 to ilvl 284, a +84 % increase over four tiers (Naxx, Ulduar, ToC, ICC), already more than half bigger as TBC and Vanilla.

And right now, you have 75 ilvl (so +75 % item budge) in a SINGLE tier. That's bigger than the entirety of Vanilla or TBC, and nearly as big as WotLK.
Going from 5-man to the first tier is the same power increase (in fact, scratch that, it's MUCH larger, as mechanics have changed and increase MUCH MORE per ilvl than they did in Vanilla/TBC and even WotLK) than going from 5-man to Sunwell.

More grounded numbers : a DPS went from about 900 dps in Karazhan to about 1500 in Black Temple, peaking at 2000 on Brutallus when the whole raid was fully optimizing DPS. That's about double from blue gear nonbuffed to last tier gear fully buffed.
How much does your DPS increases between your heroic 5-man and Mythic bosses ? Just tell me and compare.

So no, don't give me this shit "it's always been like that herp derp".

It's been nothing like this 'for a long time'.

Absolutely nothing like it.

It largely started in Legion, but was nowhere near as bad as this.

Those arguing to the contrary are largely telling me that they've been playing the game for a few years; at best.

Well, actually, like about everything shitty in the game, it started in WotLK and increased with time.

[salate]

Wow, I thought ilevels were raised too low, because to be honest, it doesnt matter for me, as long as game is fun and I can stay more as a tank > I'm happy to play, so np if ilvls are raised.

[Vynestra]

We went +200 ilvl in just one raid tier. Blizzard made their ilvl/stat squish meaningless within a few months, it's shocking how they keep butchering the character progression by throwing endless gear/ilvl/difficulties into a blender.

They plan to squish again when necessary. It's obvious they don't have a better solution. The point is to squish so they can exponentially climb again, then squish again.

[Sting]

Again, raids launch when sufficient time has passed for most of the playerbase to progress.
Noone liked hanging out in ssc when BT launched. you for real? Lol. Releasing raids when they are done would invalidate previous tiers the same way that they would at a set schedule, difference being the completion %

Is it a bad idea to ensure that content has a high enough completion rate before making it irrelevant?


Also, you're wrong about badge gear. A lot of the badge gear items were heads and shoulders better than alternatives from raids. Leather boots from the ZA vendor (something's tabi boots) were bis until sunwell. Better than anything in T5/6

What the hell are you talking about, I never said anything about ssc/bt. As for the boots, maybe, I never played a leather class during that time.

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And you had to farm heroics to get them in TBC? Hardly "welfare"
certainly nothing like this expansion. You can ding 120 once new patch drops and be raiding that teir heroic in a week.

I never claimed BfA had it better, in fact I'd argue the opposite.

[cparle87]

Because "I don't want to believe things that are based on facts but can't argue against them in any intelligent way so he must be wearing TINFOIL!!!!" is a thing for some people, including you.



Thats assuming people never got better at the game, which is highly unlikely (if it didn't happen, then why do people say Vanilla etc. wasn't hard at all). Yes I'd say people would accept it (unless by "modern playerbase" you mean the instant gratification peeps, then no. They're going whine no matter what.), they would have a reason to get better at the game. It was fine for everyone but Blizzard in Vanilla/TBC since "they couldn't afford" development time for things that only a small percentage got to see (which is faulty in itself because it creates goals etc. for people, so even if people didn't see it when it was in current expansion it still was a goal for people).

I'm just copying over the rough percentages of players who did certain levels of raiding in BC. With EN/ToV being T4, ToS being T5, and AtBT being T6.

[Sting]

Hopefully WoW at some point takes a page from Guild Wars 2 and makes progression more than just about your items.

How would that work for WoW? It's not a game built for that sort of progression. What would the endgame carrot be, transmog? So much of a focus on cosmetics is a reason why BfA isn't succesful.

[mysticx]

The go-through-every-step approach of TBC may be good in theory but it just doesn't work in an MMO where casuals and tryhards play together.

It worked for the tryhards, and they are the ones arguing for the old TBC-system back...

I'm pretty critical of Blizzard myself, but i still think they're more knowledgeable about the state of the game and participation rates for each part of it than some "Logs in only once or twice a week to raid"-types...

[bullseyed]

Will be interesting to see if BFA hits ilvl 500+ or if they actually want to keep some kind of progression between Seasons. Looking at the squeeze information in beta I never thought it would, but I'm a bit more skeptical after this.

I assumed we'd get to 1000 ilvl again by the end of BFA, but that is looking unlikely at this point.

Perhaps each expansion will be ~500 ilvl now so they can squish every other one.

[Elias01]

Let's transplant the raiding scenario from BC over to Legion, why don't we.
Half of raiders would do EN and see just a bit of ToV. About a third of raiders would get to see some of ToS. And only like 5% of raiders, which meant like 1% of the total playerbase, would get to see Antorus. Can you really see the modern playerbase accepting this?

Yes absolutly. You can really argue about it. Human brain is setuped this way. If you nake everthing acceasible it stops being rewarding and fullfiling experience no matter what kind of player you are. Those complainers what constantly say they would quit are absolut minority. And Blizzard know it. Problem is Blizzard doesnt want 1 000 000 or 10 000 000 players. They want every single one tp ger to play their game. But this will never ever work. NEVER. You cannt spread your game so thin for everyone. Nobady will enjoy it.