Would you raid/dungeon without TF/WF

[lappee]

Dude, honestly? I am finding it difficult to believe that this is a sincere question....

Getting loot upgrades is a nice feeling. Just because I can enjoy raiding without loot doesn't mean I won't enjoy it more with loot. So the fact that can enjoy it without is a really, really stupid reason to remove loot from the equation.

Loot upgrades from doing content is a bit like adding your favourite condiments to your food. That burger will still be nice even served plain, but adding the slice of cheese and bacon, some fried onions, a touch of salt and ketchup make it even better.

And people enjoyed raiding more when they could actually get their BiS, so removing that was a really, really stupid decision from Blizzard. Its the same with every type of gaming, being awarded for doing is always better than being awarded with RNG. You could combine the two by having RNG via WF while being able to upgrade items so people eventually get their BiS, but no thats not the case - via lottery you can get BiS without ever doing any hard content whatsoever.

Current system is just horrible anyway you look at it and only people that "enjoy" it are those who "didn't care" in the first place and entitled brats. Its just that simple and one can only hope Blizzard gets their head out of that gigantic arse of theirs and actually makes the game good again.

[Aphrel]

I have a main character that i raid with, i don't try to gear up my alts, just use them for professions. I'm trying to get best gear possible to make progression process relatively easier, let me tell you something, any system that rewards a player based on how lucky he is, is a shit and not thought-through system, why would a particular item exist if there is absolutely no way for anybody of obtaining that item regardless of how hard they try, literally, UNLESS they get lucky
Ofcourse i don't enjoy the game, how can anybody who's not super-casual enjoy titanforging

Like, go ahead check my armory, you can see couple of titanforged m+ items that i literally had to farm untill i threw up, but guess what. they COULD BE 10 ilvls higher with a gem slot, absolutely disgusting. If anything makes me quit this game for the second time ( and for good ) it's titanforging

Your progress wont be easier without titanforging thou, it sounds more like you want a way to reliably farm titanforge than having them removed. And sure, if there was a reliable way to farm titanforged i probboly would do that aswell. But to keep trying to farm for them by spamming dungs as the system is now sounds like a good way to start hating the game.
Im raiding mythic myself and sofar from the 6 bosses ive seen i dont feel at all like its nessicary to farm titanforges in m+. I did the initial zerg to fill all slots with 400 during the first week. The rest ive just got either from the raid or from the occasional titanforging while pushing higher keys for fun and for the challenge.

[Chillside]

Your progress wont be easier without titanforging thou, it sounds more like you want a way to reliably farm titanforge than having them removed. And sure, if there was a reliable way to farm titanforged i probboly would do that aswell. But to keep trying to farm for them by spamming dungs as the system is now sounds like a good way to start hating the game.
Im raiding mythic myself and sofar from the 6 bosses ive seen i dont feel at all like its nessicary to farm titanforges in m+. I did the initial zerg to fill all slots with 400 during the first week. The rest ive just got either from the raid or from the occasional titanforging while pushing higher keys for fun and for the challenge.

I'm not trying to find something to hate the game for, or get mad about. All these years we knew exactly what set and item pieces we were after for the particular raid tier, we'd farm them and sooner or later we would get them, drop rate is and always has been rng obviously, but noone ( including myself ) has ever complained about that, but first of all they removed reforging ( which was arguably one of the absolute greatest features that we had in the game ) and then added an extra layer of disgusting rng system called titanforging.
Again, in a game where character progression should be one of your primary goals, there are items in the database that's impossible to obtain unless you get lucky, for the sake of an example, 2 roughly equially skilled/experienced players, same classes, same ilvl, same build and traits, but one guy has 10 gem slots in his equipment and second guy has none, how do you combat that 400 secondary stat difference? brush it off and say that "whatever it's just a game"?
You say that you don't feel like it's necessary for you to spam m+, well good for you, i'm genuinely happy for you and i get that, my opinion is subjective and so is yours, but for me all it takes for me to gain a massive performance increase is 2-3% more crit chance and about 2% more haste, which if it was cataclysm i'd just take that excessive mastery and versa that i have and just reforge the fuck out of them ( OR, in this case, farm specific m+ and pray for titanforge to fix my stats ). What do you do? act like everything is fine? it's not fine, it's probably the furthest away from being fine than it's ever been, i'm dead serious

[Osmeric]

I just got a +30 ilvl TF of the BiS trinket for my main. It actually made a N run worthwhile, lootwise.

[Spotnick]

I would, but they would have to reduce drastically the amount of loot we get.

[Alvito]

I would definitly do alot less m+.

Yeah. Below whatever my highest key done for the week I doubt I would do much. I am sure I'd also get to the point each season where I wouldn't bother above a 10 or whatever the weekly cache max was at the time and eventually stop doing that too. Even with all that I do wish they would cap or remove TF.

[cuafpr]

if they went back to a badge system yes.. just like LK i'd log in do my daily run(s) and enjoy the point where it was cruise or ret "tanking"

[Alvito]

I mean legendaries did a much better job at that. People would even run LFR.

You had both at the same time. A shot at legendary items and a pull on the TF slot machine. I know peiple that did every version of Ursoc weekly all expansion for his stupid trinket and hoping for a TF. Same with archano crystal and the super warrior trinket fro NH. I know I killed wither jiim on 3 to 12 characters everytime he was up coining him too for that stupid trinket. In all of that I got the teinket twice and sadly the only decent version I ever got was from the random trinket you could buy on Argus not even the boss. Legion did a lot right, loot ballance wasn't one of those things though.

[HCLM]

You picked a wrong place for that question. Most people here didnt see mythic on their eyes so they still find upgrades everywhere.

From a mythic raider perspective, it is most likely a no answer for m+, and yes for raids. After disabling WF/TF the only people doing m+ would be pushers, and mythic raids are most of the time farmed to the end of tier by most guild anyway.

[Raelbo]

And people enjoyed raiding more when they could actually get their BiS, so removing that was a really, really stupid decision from Blizzard. Its the same with every type of gaming, being awarded for doing is always better than being awarded with RNG. You could combine the two by having RNG via WF while being able to upgrade items so people eventually get their BiS, but no thats not the case - via lottery you can get BiS without ever doing any hard content whatsoever.

Your argument is an incoherent mess which is all over the place.

Firstly, no, you cannot claim that "people enjoyed raiding more when they could actually get their BiS". I am sure some people did. Others did not. I would argue that the old system suited players who were primarily concerned with obtaining the "perfect gear set" - whose objective was completing a predefined checklist so that they could know that they were done. The new system suits players who are primarily concerned with steady progression - whose objective is to work through the tier steadily until they have defeated the final boss.

Because the WF/TF has no "end point" it leaves it up to the players to decide where their personal end point is. I can see why that would be a problem for rigid players with no ability to set flexible goals and/or self moderate.

Secondly, people are not awarded for "doing" any less than in the past. If I am interpretting what you're saying here correctly (like I said, your argument is an incoherent mess, so it's hard to figure out what you're trying to say), effectively, people can get Mythic raid gear by grinding LFR and Normal and then relying on TF to upgrade to give the same gear? Sorry, but that is a ridiculous assertion that simply doesn't stand up to any kind of critical assesssment.

In theory, yes, someone can, from LFR, get the same item as drops from Mythic. The fallacy of your argument is that you're trying to equate the chance of a low probability event happening multiple times with the chance of a high probability event happening multiple times. Simply put, there is absolutely no way in this universe that anyone raiding normal difficulty is going to have comparable gear to someone raiding at the mythic level, just because there is a theoretical statistical probability of it happening.

Current system is just horrible anyway you look at it and only people that "enjoy" it are those who "didn't care" in the first place and entitled brats. Its just that simple and one can only hope Blizzard gets their head out of that gigantic arse of theirs and actually makes the game good again.

I love it when people resort to ad hominem like this. There are few better ways of conceding that you lack any form of cogent argument.

- - - Updated - - -

I have a main character that i raid with, i don't try to gear up my alts, just use them for professions. I'm trying to get best gear possible to make progression process relatively easier, let me tell you something, any system that rewards a player based on how lucky he is, is a shit and not thought-through system

No, it's not luck based. Yes, any individual item is luck based. But when you look at the bigger picture, it's about statistics. Characters don't just have 1 gear slot. You don't just kill one boss. Groups don't consist just of single individual.

In a mythic raiding setup the group has, literally, hundreds of chances at loot every week. The 'luck' element cancels out to the point where the actual impact is basically negligible. Even on an individual level, for players who put in consistent effort, luck stops being a significant factor.

why would a particular item exist if there is absolutely no way for anybody of obtaining that item regardless of how hard they try, literally, UNLESS they get lucky

The design is not about "a particular item". It's about the collective items across 16 slots. Getting a specific trinket with the best possible TF and a socket is, absolutely, a question of pure luck. But by itself it is entirely meaningless because your performance is not a function of a single piece of gear, it's about the combined effect of all your pieces of gear.

Ofcourse i don't enjoy the game, how can anybody who's not super-casual enjoy titanforging

Easy. Stop being so uptight and emotional, apply a bit of rational thought and look at the big picture. It's pretty obvious from what you're saying that you are obsessing over the gear you get because you feel that you have no control and that it's all about luck. Sure put in the effort and set yourself goals. But don't constrain those goals in silly ways.

Like, go ahead check my armory, you can see couple of titanforged m+ items that i literally had to farm untill i threw up, but guess what. they COULD BE 10 ilvls higher with a gem slot, absolutely disgusting. If anything makes me quit this game for the second time ( and for good ) it's titanforging

And therein lies your problem. You're obsessing over how good your gear could have been if you'd got lucky with every slot, instead of looking at it holistically and recognising that you got, suprise, suprise, average luck. Just like everyone else. I would say that you seem to have a misguided perception of what you should be expecting based on what is possible, rather than what is probable (ie realistic). I would say that if you take a bunch of people who have put in the same effort as you, even if some of them have individual items that you really, really want, you'll find that the final product (ie the impact of gear on your performance) is going to be pretty similar, with only a few percent difference.

[Chillside]

Your argument is an incoherent mess which is all over the place.

I'm not sure whether you're deliberately trying to piss him off or actually can't see how disgustingly out of place and broken TF is, but his argument is neither incoherent, nor a mess

- - - Updated - - -

The design is not about "a particular item". It's about the collective items across 16 slots. Getting a specific trinket with the best possible TF and a socket is, absolutely, a question of pure luck. But by itself it is entirely meaningless because your performance is not a function of a single piece of gear, it's about the combined effect of all your pieces of gear.

You're literally saying the same thing that i said, but with completely different approach. This is exactly what i meant when i said that they removed reforging and implemented titanforging, most of us always had a picture of what our perfect gear would look like for the particular raid-tier, we would work towards that goal and we would achieve that goal, we could work around different, but same ilvl items through reforging to fix secondary stat irregularities, now the only way to fix the gear is through hunting for specific items one by one, because mythic raid doesn't always provide with BiS items for every single class, i have few 420 and 425 ilvl stuff from BoD, just laying around in my bags, because they have terrible stats for me and couldn't trade them to anyone either, guess what, sometimes you end up in this awkward situation when you're thinking like "yea i'll do more damage per ability if equip this supposedly an upgrade item, but it would potentially cause my traits to proc less frequently and i'll probably have less cast count overall so is it really worth it?" Sim it? - bullshit. Am i perfectionist? Yea probably, to a certain degree, but i still haven't gotten an answer to my question "why do items exist if there is absolutely no way of obtaining them"

[glowpipe]

After doing the raid and get curve, i would quit. There would be no reason to fill every slot with bis gear cause the only thing you could use that bis gear on is m+ which no longer give any rewards due to removal of wf/tf. So no. removal of wf/tf, would make the game absolutely shit

[XDurionX]

Yes i would, but i also would sure as hell stop earlier.

[klaps_05]

So far I dont get much WF/TF anyway, so wont make a difference i guess HEHEEEEEEEEE : (

[Mendzia]

Yes, i will raid in Classic.

[Archmage Alodi]

I don't care if the gear from easier content can TF or WF as long as hardest content in game has a significantly higher ilvl than those and can't wf or tf. This makes easier content more worthwhile and enables people to actually get a set of BiS gear.

[ydraw]

"Being done" with a raid in the sense that you got all your BIS gear was a great feeling back in the day.

That's the whole point of titanforging though. Having 5-6 raid members being "done" with the raid and then not turning up for farm after that was a pretty bad situation for the rest of the guild.

[Taeldorian]

I’d probably end up doing less m+ but I already don’t do a lot. Just some 10s and higher keys later in the week for fun. The main reason to do m+ anyway is the TF upgrades, if that were gone you’d probably see a lot less m+ participation around the board.

I’d definitely still raid the same I am now though. Hell I’d probably wanna raid more, getting decked out in your BIS setup was awesome. Even in MoP with thunderforging it felt fine. I’d raid more to get my BiS items since it would eventually happen which in turn would make me far more interested in farm because I get to put all that hard work getting my BiS to the test.

Now with TF it just feels kinda meh, gearing all around is literally all RNG now. Tertiaries, gem sockets and Ilvl are all up to RNG. As a healer leech just annoys me. Not getting leech sucks but getting leech on a lower ilvl piece of gear generally means that piece will be better (depending on the ilvl drop) because leech is just ridiculous. Gear being random makes me not wanna even see it. I’d rather just raid for an entire tier to get my BiS rather than see a random “420 titanforged socket leech” piece.

I don’t think TF needs to be removed though, just toned down. It certainly has a benefit of making older raids and m+ much more repeatable and relavent which I’m personally okay with. I just think it’s too ridiculous right now in its current state.

It would also help if they’d bring back reforging. I’ve gotten a 420 titanforged piece that was a downgrade which always feels shitty, reforging would help alleviate that issue. It would also help alleviate a 415 not being an upgrade over a 400 as an example without TF. Too much RNG with gearing right now, just feels sour.

[Jowany]

If you have mythic raid items 415 up to 425 for TF, there should be a option for manual upgrade for non WF/TF items. Like someone mentioned, some kind of essence/badge whatever you want you can collect through raids, dungeons, WQ's, emissaries, warfronts, invasion and more. So there would be chance for everyone to have max ilvl without luck on WF/TF. And it would add some grind and reason for doing HC, low keys dungeons or previous tier raid. Only random thing would be gem, leech, speed, etc..

[Exkrementor]

It all depends on class gameplay.

With vanilla or BFA class design: NO

With MoP, Cata or Legion class design: totally


But blizzard decided that random rewards are more fun than rewarding gameplay. shame