Why do people say class design is dumbed down?

[Musta]

Because it is.

[potis]

That's great and all, but the issue is the reward for pulling off those extra small things. Yes, in theory if you play absolutely perfectly, there's some difficulty. But that's irrelevant, because you're barely rewarded for maximizing them compared to just doing them at a basic level. The reward for playing well is missing. And claiming something like that never existed before is hilariously wrong. Do you remember snapshotting? Yeah, that made a difference. Or pooling resources for trinket procs that were actually strong enough to play around.

Who claimed it didnt exist? I clearly state "Not all classes" for a reason.

Just because Affliciton/Shadow Priest had a few random tiers were snapshotting was relevant, doesnt mean the class was in anyway hard up till then or after that.

Its just a thing that existed per random tier because of XX trinket thats almost similar to today, but the difference is, almost every class has something similar now compared to snapshotting in ToT as example.

And there was never a reward for playing absolutely perfect, the reward is personal gratification.

[Tradu]

Who claimed it didnt exist? I clearly state "Not all classes" for a reason.

Just because Affliciton/Shadow Priest had a few random tiers were snapshotting was relevant, doesnt mean the class was in anyway hard up till then or after that.

And there was never a reward for playing absolutely perfect, the reward is personal gratification.

Tell that to specs like MoP/WoD Demo, HFC WW and StM Shadow or any of the specs that heavily used snapshotting(which wasn't just Affliction and Shadow). And snapshotting wasn't just relevant for "a few random tiers", it was a huge part of how the specs that heavily used it played from like Cata(with some use previously, but not to the same degree, because it wasn't as figured out yet) until its removal with WoD.
Another example of a spec that used to be massively rewarding for playing well was Feral. Bad players struggled even maintaining DoTs while good players weaved in Ferocious Bites as well. Now you get 100% Rip uptime for free, don't really need to care about snapshotting(because it just happens by playing how you would anyway) and just spam Shred and Bite like a monkey.

[potis]

Tell that to specs like MoP/WoD Demo, HFC WW and StM Shadow or any of the specs that heavily used snapshotting(which wasn't just Affliction and Shadow). And snapshotting wasn't just relevant for "a few random tiers", it was a huge part of how the specs that heavily used it played from like Cata(with some use previously, but not to the same degree, because it wasn't as figured out yet) until its removal with WoD.

It only got removed because ToT trinket was utterly broken and showed the stupidness of it existing but as we both seem to edit the posts as it goes.

My point stands, in each majority, the classes were not harder to play in the past, some classes had their moments in different tiers, usually because of a trinket but not the class itself.

Look at BM hunter, despite still being an easy spec, there is a massive difference between a BM managing Barbed Shot versus someone that hasnt even figured out what it does, and trust me, majority of BMs have no clue that barbed shot is IAS for the pet, and thats just 1 example of a class that is considered "The easiest".

This is the same spec that was 1 macro from TBC to Cata? I think.

[Zyky]

The problem is since Legion specs have becoming significantly more RNG heavy than in the past. If you're unlucky you're going to be significantly worse than someone who gets lucky, same goes for gear with Titanforging BS. The game is more about luck now than doing something well.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the same spec that was 1 macro from TBC to Cata? I think.

The macro was unusable once pre-patch for Wrath launched.

[potis]

The macro was unusable once pre-patch for Wrath launched.

Hopefully! But even so, point stands, that BM spec was much easier to maintain big numbers than it is now and again as i said above, the changes dont apply for every single class.

But in the majority and the general game the classes arent really easier, min/maxing is much more relevant than it was before basically.

And @Tradu i would to continue the back and forth but El Presidente is waiting (Tropico 6 :P)

[Nerovar]

And you are confusing RPG elements with "class pruning".

The removal of irrelevant passives is exactly that, irrelevant.

"Boohooohoo my frost presence button was removed and the strength value was added by default to the abilities, boohoohohoo"

2hand WW and 2hand DK isnt class pruning also, its "RPG pruning".

They remove stuff, lots of things, irrelevant bullshit passives, sure you could pretend you were some awesome player with stance dancing (which is a joke itself but i can understand how for the majority it can be looked as pruning) but reality is, irrelevant, passives.

Set bonuses were the same, although its a touchy subject cause its new, and azerite traits failed at the start but they still remain, in the majority as passives.

The best example i can give is Sin Rogue, the class pretty much plays the same way i was playing my alt in ICC pugs, up till now.

I mean, if stance dancing gives you certain advantages in certain situations (btw. you're ignoring the entire PvP aspect) then it's not a passive element. On the other hand the azerite trait you listed as an example for big brain class design is literally a stat buff that promotes gameplay by doing what? Giving you 70 more strength than the average joe for not fucking your 3 button rotation up.

The removal of sub specs obviously does detract from the complexity of the class. Again: you claimed there are more variables and therefor more room for mistakes in the game today making it harder to play. If average joe can pick more suboptimal playstyles within his spec because the game allows him to use different weapons that interact differently with class mechanics then that's a big chunk of variables right there.

Also appearantly the DK rune system prior to Legion was probably also passive and irrelevant? nice meme

[Aleksej89]

Check how classes played and how many abilities they had during MOPandaria (youtube vids or whatever).
Each class was filled to the brim with abilities and tools and niche spells and situational utility.

Some classes were a bit bloated, like the enhancement shaman, but Blizz should have GENTLY trimmed a few abilities here and there.
Instead they used a jackhammer and completely butchered the classes, outright removing a third of the abilities and then spreading the next third across the 3 specs.

So instead of having one fun, versatile and rich class like you did in MOP now you have 1/3 of a class and a few spec-only abilities that used to be class-wide.
Its extremely boring, shallow and even sorrowful to see once fun MOP-era classes reduced to the pile of shite that is BFA class design.

[potis]

I mean, if stance dancing gives you certain advantages in certain situations (btw. you're ignoring the entire PvP aspect) then it's not a passive element. On the other hand the azerite trait you listed as an example for big brain class design is literally a stat buff that promotes gameplay by doing what? Giving you 70 more strength than the average joe for not fucking your 3 button rotation up.

The removal of sub specs obviously does detract from the complexity of the class. Again: you claimed there are more variables and therefor more room for mistakes in the game today making it harder to play. If average joe can pick more suboptimal playstyles within his spec because the game allows him to use different weapons that interact differently with class mechanics then that's a big chunk of variables right there.

Also appearantly the DK rune system prior to Legion was probably also passive and irrelevant? nice meme

The meme is how you focus on a particular class cause thats probably the one you actually know basics about it.

PvP Aspect with everything off the GCD wasnt really relevant, you mean the macro swap Defensive Stance? Or the Blood Stance macro? As i said, most of that stuff was just irrelevant passives, i dont disagree pruning happened, but it didnt affect how the classes play at the high skill level, quite the opposite.

The average braindead joe? Maybe it did.

I dont disagree pruning didnt happen, but its also irrelevant, all i see is a massive amount of terrible players even more so than before all this "pruning", despite the claims.

[Nerovar]

The meme is how you focus on a particular class cause thats probably the one you actually know basics about it.

PvP Aspect with everything off the GCD wasnt really relevant, you mean the macro swap Defensive Stance? Or the Blood Stance macro? As i said, most of that stuff was just irrelevant passives, i dont disagree pruning happened, but it didnt affect how the classes play at the high skill level, quite the opposite.

The average braindead joe? Maybe it did.

I dont disagree pruning didnt happen, but its also irrelevant, all i see is a massive amount of terrible players even more so than before all this "pruning", despite the claims.

Another good strawman my dude.

Compare WoD WW to Legion and BfA WW then. The spec used to have actual things to keep track of and fairly complex gameplay mechanics like Tigereye Brew that required you to intelligently maximize your stack gain (which was especially great with things like Chi Explosion), interesting trade offs like using Chi Torpedo for damage instead of mobility, abilities like the old Storm Earth and Fire which could have an amazing impact if used correctly etc.
Now it's basically keep all your stuff on CD and don't press the same button twice in a row. Amazing.

Stances weren't relevant? In PvP there were tons of DKs who just permanently sat in blood presence because they didn't know when to go offensive without getting destroyed by the enemy team. You could generally deal way more damage than these players just by managing your presences correctly. It's the very definition of active gameplay.

Do you know why you see a massive amount of terrible players around? Because what we perceive as terrible players is relative. Every class could only have 4 buttons and we would still perceive some players as bad or worse than others. This has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand.
Reducing complexity doesn't make players any more or less bad. It just makes the game bad.

[RoKPaNda]

Okay then, to expand the list!

Holy paladin, the GCD change alone dumbed down the specc, with things such as beacon combos removed, and Winged beacon combos going with it. which dumbed the specc waaaaay down to TBC levels of flash of light spam gameplay. then glimmer arrived! yay! oh wait, thats just a dumbed down resto druid / disc priest... damn

Death knight, all you need to do is look at their APM. u can literally eat dinner and still do fully optimized DPS in a mythic raid on frost DK, and unholy they managed to change in such a way that i find it hard to believe that everyone doesnt know about this one anymore, the fact u arent playing around valkyr basically means the specc became braindead, it went from a super fragile punishing DPS specc, to the Twitch clip of some of the best M+ players in the world playing the game with their forehead. Blood DK is also a shadow of its former self, and quite literally became a 2 button specc. with things like their aoe Leech removed DK's pretty much became Guardian druids. thrash, iron fur, thrash.

Boomkin started out the expansion using 1 button... and that was sunfire. the current way boomkin is being played is a god damn atrocity compared to Legion, with weaving spells and pooling astral power either because of the legendary helmet, or because of the bracers + Stellar drift, Boomies went from something where a truly good Boomkin could shine, to a soul less brain dead caster specc. this is one of the real big ones as well, and all u have to do is talk to some of boomies on the class discord and you'll find many top end players sharing this opinion very strongly.

Arms warrior - The passive traits basically made it into a hit combo specc like WW monks, now its just presss execute every single global once the target hits 35%. nice.

like the list goes on ma dude, those were not the worst examples at all, id say the 3 worst are Rshammy, Boomy, and Unholy. i sadly never touched mages in Legion, so i have no clue about those, you mentioned shadow urself, very few speccs fall into your example, only ones i can count are - Ret pally, Fury warrior, Holy priest and maybe some of the mage speccs? like even warlocks were much more interesting and difficult in Legion except for Demo, which may not be my cup of tea, but most people seems to prefer its current state in BFA over Legion, i dont personally share that opinion, but i havent played warlock at any high level since MoP so they are probably right.

So there was no cherry picking going on, as about 80%+ of all speccs are heavily dumbed down.

UHD has been a clunky spec since forever. There actually hasn't been a single time that I can recall where it wasn't a clunker. So that's not a BFA problem. Frost isn't nearly as braindead as you make it out to be. I've heard balance is right there with Shadow in terms of being fucked so I'll gladly give you that one. Arms is better than it was in Legion and Legion was one of the better implementations of it over the years.

It's really hard to have a discussion when the other person is making disingenuous statements like "80% of all specs are heavily dumbed down." - From what, Legion? Nah. From WLK and before? Sure.

[GreenJesus]

It's not only what's on your action bars. It's also Passives that made spells interact with each other. For example use an ability and the target takes 25% increased damage from next spell. If you waste that proc on a low damage spell then you lose dps. Or 10% chance to lower a spell cooldown if you crit. That isn't something on my action bar but it changes my gameplay. A minor example is prime glyph for templars verdict where you take 10% reduced damage after using the spell.

We have lost DOT snapshotting as well. That was a huge part of gameplay for doT classes.

Imagine if back in Cata someone said you would lose your glyphs and have to grind for a hundred hours to get them back. That's essentially what has happened. Azerite armor is just a fancy ui for glyphs.

[Doffen]

Nothing special about it in bfa compared to other expansion. Many players noticed a button or two disappear since Legion. The gcd change sucked perhaps. Always been like this though. There are good and there are bad specs which differs from one expansion to another. Some specs get, some specs lose abilities etc.

Personally I miss Marksman Hunter from Legion, they butchered the best spec they ever made. But others specs got better, for me, so I changed. And this happens all the time. One of the spec that has changed the least during the years is Arcane Mage. I've always loved that spec, but most would say its been pretty dumbed down since the beginning. Perception and opinions. That's all there is.

So to say that its dumbed down now is silly. How dumb was it in for instance TBC and WotLK then? Megadumb?

[Jikate-Stormrage]

People mistake having a bunch of worthless abilities with no point in ever using let alone having on your bars for complexity. The only real difference for most specs from Legion, where class design was considered great for the most part, is the loss of the artifact clickable ability.

They are also missing lining up procs from tier gear, trinkets, potions and cooldowns to maximize their output. Now, you might hold out for a proc to pop your cool down and second potion, but it’s hardly a huge increase. I do not know of any azurite trait that interacts with your rotation on a second by second instance. Most are just select and forget.

They removed all of that because they felt most just macro’d it all together. Sure, that may be the case; but that certainly wasn’t optimizing it. Same with changing gear in m+. It was just too much to ask the playerbase to do. Even though many ignored gear swapping entirely and was hardly punished for doing so. In the end, it was just too complex for the common joe, so it had to go. Disregard those who actually performed these minor optimizations. Who found ways to add a bit of complexity and decision making in a game that continuously errs on the side of making the game overly easy.

Some people prefer choice (real choice, not the illusion of such). There’s room for both types of players. At least there used to be. It seems the players who like to find harmless ways to squeeze out just a little more from their characters are not the target audience anymore. Ironic when the lead game designer was one of the most elitist players in the game not so long ago (I can’t comment on if his personal view has changed, I don’t know him personally). Now, it’s more like a Ferris wheel than a fun house. Your options are green seat, red seat or blue seat. All seats move at the same speed and you absolutely must keep all arms and legs within the seating area at all times.

Also, the Ferris wheel MUST be fun, everyone’s riding it. No need to mention that all the other rides are broke as fuck and riding the Ferris wheel has a chance to give you a free soda on the hottest day of summer. If you can only stay on it just a little longer.... it may pay out.

[Zyky]

Hopefully! But even so, point stands, that BM spec was much easier to maintain big numbers than it is now and again as i said above, the changes dont apply for every single class.

But in the majority and the general game the classes arent really easier, min/maxing is much more relevant than it was before basically.

And @Tradu i would to continue the back and forth but El Presidente is waiting (Tropico 6 :P)

Doesn't change my other point that I stated, saying that the majority of DPS specs are now about getting lucky rather than playing well.

[ringpriest]

Two illustrations:

1. The number of binds I use dropped by something like 40% from what it was in MoP / WoD. I had a use for all binds that vanished, that's why I had them as binds (some of the abilities - usually a very small amount - I didn't bind, only bound what I actually pressed regularly).

2. When I was leveling alts - managed to level 4 after main so far - they all played nearly exactly the same. Builder (sometimes two) - spender (sometimes two) - filler - some defensives / CC, sometimes a button for AOE. It's just boring. 1 and 2 always build, 3 and 4 always spend, E always interrupts or stuns or whatever, X always defends, etc.

Both of the above things are the result of prunes. The game is lacking depth and differences that matter. Everything is the same gray instead of having different colors, so to speak. It's boring.

As someone who has not played much recently, this seems fairly accurate - but I don't think that's the entirety of it; I probably played the most during BC, especially in PvP, and what I remember from then (a decade ago, so my memory may not be perfect) compared with recent ventures back into the game is that play back then was... chunkier and more dependent on player action. I don't think that conveys what I'm trying to say very well, so let me try to phrase it differently; based on my recollection, it felt like gameplay, particularly in PvP, was slower and every action you took had a larger impact on the end result. Now, it feels like health meters in PvP are a slow, steady drop, with "good" play consisting of optimizing damage output over time - sort of like a video-game car race, where overall execution is important and getting the occasional speed boost or power up helps a lot; that's in contrast to classic play, which I remember feeling almost more like a chess match - you were going to take certain hits, but there was a strategy and rhythm to pvp, where good or surprising moves at key points could shift the whole fight (I can't remember the last time when I felt something like that in relatively modern WoW PvP - the closest would probably be when an opponent pulls off an exceptionally clever physical maneuver with their character (not something WoW lends itself to, as a rule, but there are moments) instead of ability use, which has all become very humdrum).

[Cosmic Janitor]

Mages are perfect examples for this. Arcane mage is literally using only AB for dps. Frost mage is casting frost bold fishing fir Brain Freeze procs when Glacial Spike is up. There is no deep in it.

I think the sad part is that you actually need to spec into glacial spike as well. This shit should at least be baseline, because without it your rotationis literally just spamming frostbolts without any thought in the world until you can do your flurry/IL combo and continue spamming frostbolt, which is even sadder.

I have that feeling with alot of classes tbh, the already bare bones gameplay of many is further exacerbated by the fact that you often need talents for your class to feel at least somewhat complete and whenever you happen to play during a time when that talent doesn't perform well numerically you are kind of forced to twiddle your thumbs and hope for a better future..

[Alkizon]

Oh boy! That thread again... I have no desire and strength for creativity and involvement in this, which has already become monotonous, process today

3. Classes philosophies+ (&thier coherence with whole design+supports/balance problems) +(+/+/+/+/+)+/+(+)+
4. Some words about talents (&their connection with classes, items=talents) +(+)+(+/+/+/+)

[kamuimac]

well, classes feel a bit simpler compared to legion. it's not that bad imo. it's just simpler.

However, I'm very optimistic to see how 8.2 will turn out, your neck will produce abilities that you can use on your hotbar as part of ur rotation.

im sure that 1 button that you will press every 60 seconds will be trully gamechanging.

[Super Kami Dende]

On my priest I have tons of abilities to use, with holy having the most. Could I get some perspective from people that think the classes are too easy to play?

Because people like to complain. The classes now are hardly different in terms of Buttons needing to be pressed regularly than they were in TBC or Wrath.