Titanforging is here to stay

[RoKPaNda]

You are a bit daft and forgot to hit reply. But hey, lets just assume you are talking to me. Dont pretend i am the only one against WF/TF - people are leaving in their tens of thousands, and it is idiotic to put your fingers in your ears and your head in the sand and ignore the feedback of many ppl saying they do NOT like the system. This has nothing to do with a straw man argument, you obviously just read some other kids posting about it and tried to force it here, but it doesnt fit.

the FACT remains that players are gaining rewards FAR exceeding their input, and WF/TF only makes matters worse. That is the point many ppl are making, and many of you are ignoring, to the detriment of the game.

Do you have any sort of proof of tens of thousands of people leaving because of WF/TF? Didn't think so. There are no lfr/normal/heroic heroes running around outgearing those of us that do Mythic. The only good gear most of them have comes from M+ and the system is designed to be an alternative to raiding. WF/TF hurt nothing.

[huth]

Wrong. WoW is a theme park PVE MMO. It providesvery basic support for RPG in the for of RP realms, but this is niche and certainly not the main core of the game.

It's not entirely wrong, but you're using a different definition of the term. (Computer) RPGs are video games which typically feature a story you can play through and some form of persistent character improvement mechanisms, usually leveling and gearing. Notably, Point and Click adventures are usually not RPGs in this sense, although they could be under your definition.

What andrewjoy is wrong about is the requirement of a definite endpoint. That's not part of the definition. There usually is a necessary limit due to programming restraints, but there is no formal requirement of a reachable final state for a character.

[HuxNeva]

It's not entirely wrong, but you're using a different definition of the term. (Computer) RPGs are video games which typically feature a story you can play through and some form of persistent character improvement mechanisms, usually leveling and gearing. Notably, Point and Click adventures are usually not RPGs in this sense, although they could be under your definition.

What andrewjoy is wrong about is the requirement of a definite endpoint. That's not part of the definition. There usually is a necessary limit due to programming restraints, but there is no formal requirement of a reachable final state for a character.

Sure, WoW is an MMORPG in the sense that you have a character in a gameworld. But that is an extremely broad definition. For me what characterizes an RPG playstyle in an MMO setting is that the players engage each other primarily as the character in non scripted parts of the interactions. They stay 'in character' even when interacting with each other in add-lib. So the WoW players on an RP server, or eRP'ing in Goldshire are definitely playing WoW as an RPG.
But is this 'mainstream' WoW? I dare to say that the majority of social players (that WoW has also always catered very well to the solo player is a different story) interact with each other as real players, not 'in character', playing together in an ingame group tackling a well defined challange, typically a dungeon, a raid, an Arena or a Battleground. These are the so called 'rides' in WoW's themepark. A good example of a non-themepark (sandbox) MMO is EVE, where the group challenges and interactions are much less predefined, but emerge through the players.

As for Andrewjoy, I"d even say that a defined goal might be present in an RPG, but can just as wel emerge and change or be completely absent, as reaching "the endgoal" is not the main interest in the RPG, but it can merely provide a context to RP around.

[Eurhetemec]

Whilst we can argue about what is and isn't an RPG or CRPG or MMORPG all day (for the record, as a long-time pen and paper DM, I favour your definition, but I understand that most gamers have one closer to huth), it's all a bit pointless.

As for Andrewjoy, I"d even say that a defined goal might be present in an RPG, but can just as wel emerge and change or be completely absent, as reaching "the endgoal" is not the main interest in the RPG, but it can merely provide a context to RP around.

This however is just correct on your part. There's absolutely no need for an RPG of any kind, whether it's pen and paper, CRPG, MMORPG or whatever, to have a "defined end goal". Indeed Sandbox MMORPGs are pretty much defined by the absence of a "defined end goal", and even Theme Park MMORPGs don't need a specific "defined end goal", and many of them have happily existed without one (including, I'd argue, vanilla WoW).

[Villentretenmerth]

I'm glad I don't play Vanilla anymore.

[arkanon]

Do you have any sort of proof of tens of thousands of people leaving because of WF/TF? Didn't think so. There are no lfr/normal/heroic heroes running around outgearing those of us that do Mythic. The only good gear most of them have comes from M+ and the system is designed to be an alternative to raiding. WF/TF hurt nothing.

"the FACT remains that players are gaining rewards FAR exceeding their input, and WF/TF only makes matters worse. That is the point many ppl are making, and many of you are ignoring, to the detriment of the game."

Just going to ignore that? you lot are like flat Earthers - absolutely convinced you are right and that no evidence is good enough, while ignoring core components of arguments just to focus on the one bit you feel you can disprove. Even if we talk about the dramatic drop in Blizzards MAU coinciding with the launch of BfA, you still just refuse to accept the evidence. "nope, now you cant PROVE that is because of wow, and you cant PROVE that its because of ABC". The game is in serious decline - even those still enjoying the game are accepting that - i still play the game and i absolutely accept it. Its only the blind followers who think Blizzard can do no wrong that refuse to accept what is obvious to many - Blizzards current class design, and rewards philosophy are driving many people away from the game.

I did have a little cringe chuckle at you awkwardly shoe-horning in that you raid mythic, despite it having absolutely no relevance to the argument, and no one asking you.

[huth]

Whilst we can argue about what is and isn't an RPG or CRPG or MMORPG all day (for the record, as a long-time pen and paper DM, I favour your definition, but I understand that most gamers have one closer to huth), it's all a bit pointless.

The definitions are for different contexts. The one HuxNeva uses is for people interacting with each other, mine is for people interacting with video games.

The RPG in MMORPG refers to the latter, since it is a video game.
The RP in RP-Server refers to the former.

"the FACT remains that players are gaining rewards FAR exceeding their input, and WF/TF only makes matters worse. That is the point many ppl are making, and many of you are ignoring, to the detriment of the game."

That's an opinion labeled as fact, not an actual fact.

[Jastall]

"the FACT remains that players are gaining rewards FAR exceeding their input, and WF/TF only makes matters worse. That is the point many ppl are making, and many of you are ignoring, to the detriment of the game."

Not really a fact and more an opinion presented as a fact, and if you consider it a fact it's always happened from the moment you could get 20 halfway competent players alongside 20 half AFK yahoos in Molten Core and still beat the place to get loot, or the welfare epics in TBC, or whatnot. Loot in this game has never followed a highly precise effort/reward ratio, it's more like a trend, and the trend still holds strong in that players doing the highest content have the highest ilvl and the most optimized gear. Beyond that Titanforging doesn't do much more than badge epics did in ye olden days.

[Shakana]

Today i did a 11 to help my alt and a person that is really not concerned about the game at all, while me and other people try to do all this and get bad RNG, this person that is awful playing got a 420 titanforge from a m+.

It really is unfair, for the people that is trying to get nice gear. We are not talking about a 410, no, this person got a 420 titanforged.

I've seen this too much times, but every single time i see it happening with the wrong people, i get shocked no matter what and i find it unfair for those who work hard to get stuff done. Why does the game has to give the same gear someone works hard to someone that doesn't care about it?

This system has too much flaws.

[arkanon]

The definitions are for different contexts. The one HuxNeva uses is for people interacting with each other, mine is for people interacting with video games.

The RPG in MMORPG refers to the latter, since it is a video game.
The RP in RP-Server refers to the former.



That's an opinion labeled as fact, not an actual fact.

So hang on.....lets just confirm something here. You think someone doing LFR deserves to get mythic quality items? You think their input matches that of a mythic raider?

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Not really a fact and more an opinion presented as a fact, and if you consider it a fact it's always happened from the moment you could get 20 halfway competent players alongside 20 half AFK yahoos in Molten Core and still beat the place to get loot, or the welfare epics in TBC, or whatnot. Loot in this game has never followed a highly precise effort/reward ratio, it's more like a trend, and the trend still holds strong in that players doing the highest content have the highest ilvl and the most optimized gear. Beyond that Titanforging doesn't do much more than badge epics did in ye olden days.

See above.

And i ask you both - how would the REMOVAL of WF/TF impact anyone negatively? Simple question i would think. Shouldnt take more than a sentence to answer. Or, you could just refuse to answer that question, and strawman it. Its a simple question, just give a simple answer.

- - - Updated - - -

Today i did a 11 to help my alt and a person that is really not concerned about the game at all, while me and other people try to do all this and get bad RNG, this person that is awful playing got a 420 titanforge from a m+.

It really is unfair, for the people that is trying to get nice gear. We are not talking about a 410, no, this person got a 420 titanforged.

I've seen this too much times, but every single time i see it happening with the wrong people, i get shocked no matter what and i find it unfair for those who work hard to get stuff done. Why does the game has to give the same gear someone works hard to someone that doesn't care about it?

This system has too much flaws.

NOT POSSIBLE! This stuff NEVER happens!!!!!! PROVE IT! Yeah, but if you do lots of +11, you'll out-gear them! generic counter argument #6

There is a select group of ULTRA CASUAL players who fiercely defend their titanforged lfr gear, while pretending to be bleeding edge mythic raiders. Which is ironic, considering even method themselves said the system is bad.

The only people who like this system are ultra casual players who want gear they havnt earned, and dont deserve. Everyone knows it, just like those saying they cant remove LFR because they need to experience the story - and then when LFR loot was reduced and rewarded ugly items, the same players who said "dur its just for the story" freaked the fuck out because their welfare loot was taken away.

[Jastall]

And i ask you both - how would the REMOVAL of WF/TF impact anyone negatively? Simple question i would think. Shouldnt take more than a sentence to answer. Or, you could just refuse to answer that question, and strawman it. Its a simple question, just give a simple answer.

LFR getting Mythic quality items happens so rarely it's a total non-issue, and then you go complain about strawmen while also assuming everyone who disagrees with you is an LFR player because it's convenient for you. But anyway, a super lucky TF is different from a level 30 getting a world BoE that carries them to level 45 in vanilla. They didn't it earn it, they lucked out, grats to them.

As for your oh so important question, it would destroy M+'s reward structure, make WQs less appealing to casual player and afford a bit less upwards mobility to the lower echelons of raiding. That's plenty of people negatively affected.

Those who might benefit from removing TF are some bleeding edge Mythic raiders who whine about literally anything that gets in the way of them raidlogging (I know, I was one until recently enough). Blizzard has stopped catering to them after WoD, for good reasons.

[arkanon]

LFR getting Mythic quality items happens so rarely it's a total non-issue, and then you go complain about strawmen while also assuming everyone who disagrees with you is an LFR player because it's convenient for you. But anyway, a super lucky TF is different from a level 30 getting a world BoE that carries them to level 45 in vanilla. They didn't it earn it, they lucked out, grats to them.

As for your oh so important question, it would destroy M+'s reward structure, make WQs less appealing to casual player and afford a bit less upwards mobility to the lower echelons of raiding. That's plenty of people negatively affected.

Those who might benefit from removing TF are some bleeding edge Mythic raiders who whine about literally anything that gets in the way of them raidlogging (I know, I was one until recently enough). Blizzard has stopped catering to them after WoD, for good reasons.

The bold part is EXACTLY what the defenders of the system always say, its their only defense. No one is claiming anything otherwise. I knew you would strawman, and you did. Your very first comment is an attempt to dismantle an argument no one is making, and then patting yourself on your back for doing it. Then you put a cherry on the top by COMPLETELY misunderstanding what a strawman is.

As to your vanilla comparison, that is COMPLETELY wrong in multiple ways. If only leveling gear procced i dont think anyone would give a shit. Thats is not what is being discussed here - we are talking about endgame items titanforging FAR beyond the effort required to obtain the items. To use your misguided comparison, its actually like a lvl 20 getting the lvl 30 item, and being able to equip it 10 levels early just because a random proc says so.

But Vanilla didnt have WF/TF, so its a very strange comparison to make, and if anything, it horribly weakens your example.

How the hell would it "destroy" m+ reward structure? people should be pushing higher keys, not farming low level keys waiting for WF/TF.....yet another "defense" of the system that only proves how broken it is. Again, WHY would it make WQ less appealing? How? What are you basing this on?

Let me ask you this, if it happens so freakishly rarely, why do you care if it is removed? Either it happens quite frequently enough to be considered a serious motivator for casual and high end players alike, or, its super rare and not an issue. Which is it? This is the corner you ALL back yourselves into "its a non issue because it basically never happens. If you remove it, it will literally DESTROY M+" < this is you.....this is what you are saying.....How could someone who, based on your "i was one of them until recently" comment, was in a top10 in the WORLD guild get so confused?

[Occam-OC]

It's better to be able to earn what you need to make your gear better than run your face into the wall over and over and over again hoping RNG will deign to bless you with its presence.

This exactly. The system is flawed because it's random. Being able to apply time and effort toward an attainable goal is a better system.

[Jastall]

The bold part is EXACTLY what the defenders of the system always say, its their only defense. No one is claiming anything otherwise. I knew you would strawman, and you did. Your very first comment is an attempt to dismantle an argument no one is making, and then patting yourself on your back for doing it. Then you put a cherry on the top by COMPLETELY misunderstanding what a strawman is.

As to your vanilla comparison, that is COMPLETELY wrong in multiple ways. If only leveling gear procced i dont think anyone would give a shit. Thats is not what is being discussed here - we are talking about endgame items titanforging FAR beyond the effort required to obtain the items. To use your misguided comparison, its actually like a lvl 20 getting the lvl 30 item, and being able to equip it 10 levels early just because a random proc says so.

But Vanilla didnt have WF/TF, so its a very strange comparison to make, and if anything, it horribly weakens your example.

How the hell would it "destroy" m+ reward structure? people should be pushing higher keys, not farming low level keys waiting for WF/TF.....yet another "defense" of the system that only proves how broken it is. Again, WHY would it make WQ less appealing? How? What are you basing this on?

Let me ask you this, if it happens so freakishly rarely, why do you care if it is removed? Either it happens quite frequently enough to be considered a serious motivator for casual and high end players alike, or, its super rare and not an issue. Which is it? This is the corner you ALL back yourselves into "its a non issue because it basically never happens. If you remove it, it will literally DESTROY M+" < this is you.....this is what you are saying.....How could someone who, based on your "i was one of them until recently" comment, was in a top10 in the WORLD guild get so confused?

An argument no one is making? You literally said that in the very post I quoted, three lines earlier. "So hang on.....lets just confirm something here. You think someone doing LFR deserves to get mythic quality items?". Don't say stuff like that if you can't own up to it.

Vanilla didn't have the system but it had RNG in gearing and effort or skill really wasn't strictly correlated with reward there either, maybe a bit more than now but the paradigm hasn't significantly shifted.

It destroys the M+ reward stucture for an obvious reason, every single item out of your chest is Titanforged and it relies on Titanforging to be competitive with raid gear.

It de-emphasizes WQ because beyond a certain point they would stop being an upgrade for lower-geared players. They still aren't great gear, mind, but they can be less bad sometimes, and my shitty alt got a lucky 390 trinket which I didn't replace for some time which was nice, for example.

Since you happily ignored that one, it also affords some upwards mobility to lower lever guilds and pugs by acting as a natural nerf over time, which is far more elegant than slapping a 5% nerf on the entire raid every so often like Blizzard used to do.

I'm not even bothering with the rest of your post because it's just you spewing your opinions at me with exaggerations and gratuitous allcaps. Chill out, this is a forum, you don't need to emphasis every other point.

[arkanon]

An argument no one is making? You literally said that in the very post I quoted, three lines earlier. "So hang on.....lets just confirm something here. You think someone doing LFR deserves to get mythic quality items?". Don't say stuff like that if you can't own up to it.

Vanilla didn't have the system but it had RNG in gearing and effort or skill really wasn't strictly correlated with reward there either, maybe a bit more than now but the paradigm hasn't significantly shifted.

It destroys the M+ reward stucture for an obvious reason, every single item out of your chest is Titanforged and it relies on Titanforging to be competitive with raid gear.

It de-emphasizes WQ because beyond a certain point they would stop being an upgrade for lower-geared players. They still aren't great gear, mind, but they can be less bad sometimes, and my shitty alt got a lucky 390 trinket which I didn't replace for some time which was nice, for example.

Since you happily ignored that one, it also affords some upwards mobility to lower lever guilds and pugs by acting as a natural nerf over time, which is far more elegant than slapping a 5% nerf on the entire raid every so often like Blizzard used to do.

I'm not even bothering with the rest of your post because it's just you spewing your opinions at me with exaggerations and gratuitous allcaps. Chill out, this is a forum, you don't need to emphasis every other point.

OMG, you literally just dodged every question and repeated your post again. For gods sake, if you dont have anything constructive to say, just dont reply. You realise you just posted your same answer again, right?

I DID address your "it helps nerf content over time" bullshit, because you disprove this YOURSELF by claiming the ilvl boost is so insignificant, it has no meaningful impact on the game, and then go on to claim it is so significant, it will allow a guild to jump up an entire difficulty, from RNG and luck alone. Not getting better at the game, not improving as a player, not improving as a guild, no, just random luck from high ilvl loot.

You jump between it being a major ilvl boost - high enough to allow players to suddenly complete content they previously could not - and it being this ultra rare thing that hardly ever happens. You cant have it both ways, so which is it?

The WQ "issue" (which i have never heard anyone talk about ever before) is not an issue at all. Those players have PLENTY of other content available to them. They could push into lfr, M+, Warfronts, PVP - there is nothing locking them to only completing WQ....this is an absolute non-issue.

The "issue" you talk about with M+ chest rewards always TF -Again an absolute non-issue that can be solved instantly with a reshuffle of ilvl rewards. Just absolute garbage 'justification' for a crap system.

it is far LESS "elegant" than a nerf, because it leaves a guilds raid progression up to luck, and creates an uneven playing field. Again, this makes me laugh - its so significant that it will allow a guild to push upwards through content, without improving - EXACTLY the issue people have with the system. You havnt progressed as a player or guild, you just had some luck.

But, like i said, you continually disprove yourself by claiming it almost never happens, and yet it happens so frequently entire guilds are able to boost their ilvl by such a significant margin, they are suddenly able to clear content they could not without procced rng based ilvl increase.

So much mental shenanigans, take a breather before you break something.

[huth]

So hang on.....lets just confirm something here. You think someone doing LFR deserves to get mythic quality items? You think their input matches that of a mythic raider?

And there's your issue. It's not about whether it's good for the game, it's about whether you believe others deserve what is happening.
Which i don't think is at all relevant. The game doesn't exist to please your moral standards.

This exactly. The system is flawed because it's random. Being able to apply time and effort toward an attainable goal is a better system.

But you are. You might also get lucky and reach it early, but most of the time effort will get you there faster.

[arkanon]

And there's your issue. It's not about whether it's good for the game, it's about whether you believe others deserve what is happening.
Which i don't think is at all relevant. The game doesn't exist to please your moral standards.



But you are. You might also get lucky and reach it early, but most of the time effort will get you there faster.

Again, yet another flat earther ignoring 98% of a post to hone in on ONE comment they feel they can attack. Grow a pair and respond to all the other points raised. YOU are the problem if you think spending 86% of a warfront AFK and the remaining 14% shuffling forward should be rewarded with loot BETTER OR AS GOOD as someone whos part of a small guild working as a team to push through heroic raids, or starting on mythic raids, or doing high end keys? Oh nah yeah, the dude afk in teh warfront TOTALLY earned that loot, and it will feel SUPER rewarding for them when they get a titanforge 420 item while not even actively participating. Yeah, such good positive reinforcement.


Yes, but getting there is guaranteed, whether you improve as a player or not. EFFORT is the key word here.

[huth]

Again, yet another flat earther ignoring 98% of a post to hone in on ONE comment they feel they can attack.

No, i responded to the one part of the post that was adressed directly at me. I don't care about the rest.

Besides, all your so-called points are just about how you feel about others getting rewards. That doesn't matter.

Yes, but getting there is guaranteed, whether you improve as a player or not. EFFORT is the key word here.

No, it isn't. Without the effort, you might get there. But you have to put it in to definitely get there.

[arkanon]

No, i responded to the one part of the post that was adressed directly at me. I don't care about the rest.

Besides, all your so-called points are just about how you feel about others getting rewards. That doesn't matter.


No, it isn't. Without the effort, you might get there. But you have to put it in to definitely get there.

OK, since you are being as disingenuous as humanly possible, lets move to a world where all the points raised, all the ones you are aware of, are relevant, and worthy of a response. So please, lets "pretend" that all the other points raised are addressed directly at you.

Still cracking up that you say you wont respond to the other points raised, then respond to the points raised, but get it embarrassingly wrong. If you cant understand that handing out mythic raid quality items to people doing LFR reduces the reward for both mythic raiders AND LFR raiders, then im not really sure what else to say, because clearly you fail to understand even the absolute basics of being human.

You said yourself that putting in effort will SOMETIMES get you there faster. That was YOUR comment.

[Big Thanks]

If you cant understand that handing out mythic raid quality items to people doing LFR reduces the reward for both mythic raiders AND LFR raiders, then im not really sure what else to say, because clearly you fail to understand even the absolute basics of being human.

How does a titanforge LFR item reduces the reward for the LFR player? If anything is a kind and nice surprise for him.
He will make this face (O_O)<(WTF)

And if LFR is such a good place to farm Mythic quality gear...show me a famous Mythic guild doing LFR every week.
Hell, show me a famous Mythic guild doing all Mythic 0 dungeons in the game every week in hopes of a titanforge.

While we are at it, shall all Mythic Raiders do all World quests also in hopes of a TF?