[TV/Books] Game of Thrones ***SPOILER Discussion***

[BarelyLegalBear]

The reason why the bells did her in is because she knew it was the que for surrender by the Lannisters as Tyrion told her it would be. After seeing Cersei kill Missandei, after being rebuked by pretty much everyone in Westeros, having her entire life be nothing but endless suffering and endurance of trial and tribulation. She had some semblance of peace knowing Cersei was bitch enough to refuse surrendering, and was going to enjoy killing her for her rightful rule on the throne (note: her belief that she is the rightful ruler).

Then she realizes that as the bells toll, the war is done, and she didn't even get the luxury of killing cersei herself. Cersei backed down like a coward and usurped a relief to her tension and buildup of all the BS Danaerys has been through. Nothing has gone as she envisioned it ending, and its finally snapped her like a twig.

Shes going to end this on HER terms (in her mind), and she is going to end it in fire. The last wish of her friend Missandei egging her actions on as she kills thousands without mercy.

Ironic that she called it her strength.

I like how she says she wants to end tyrants only to become one. She did the complete opposite of breaking the wheel as well. But you know, D&D forgot about that.

[Ihavewaffles]

Loved this episode, realistic, not the stupid shit with Euron being op.

FIRE N BLOOD!

Oh, remember that king's landing cheered when they took eddard stark's head, turned against tyrion after he saved them from stannis.
Sometimes u need a clean slate Now she will get 7 kingdoms. From Dragonstone she could conquer Essos as well.

Fire n blood, give men no choice is how aegon da conquer created a dynasty. But i guess arya will f00k it up so incompetent jon snow can "rule"...

[Sarethion]

The reason why the bells did her in is because she knew it was the que for surrender by the Lannisters as Tyrion told her it would be. After seeing Cersei kill Missandei, after being rebuked by pretty much everyone in Westeros, having her entire life be nothing but endless suffering and endurance of trial and tribulation. She had some semblance of peace knowing Cersei was bitch enough to refuse surrendering, and was going to enjoy killing her for her rightful rule on the throne (note: her belief that she is the rightful ruler).

I don't know. Wouldn't having Drogon burn Cersei after she was captured be more satisfactory than risking potentially losing the kill to debris, some random trooper or whatever else?

[Aurrora]

Then she realizes that as the bells toll, the war is done, and she didn't even get the luxury of killing cersei herself. Cersei backed down like a coward and usurped a relief to her tension and buildup of all the BS Danaerys has been through. Nothing has gone as she envisioned it ending, and its finally snapped her like a twig.

But Cersei didn't back down. The bells at the Red Keep never rung. They make a point of Daenerys seeing that those bells aren't ringing and then for some reason she decides to make civilian barbecue instead of flying straight to the keep to kill Cersei.

[RobertoCarlos]

I like how she says she wants to end tyrants only to become one. She did the complete opposite of breaking the wheel as well. But you know, D&D forgot about that.

you cant be a tyrant when everyone is dead

[Lothaeryn]

I don't know. Wouldn't having Drogon burn Cersei alive like he did with Varys be more satisfactory than risking potentially losing the kill to debris, some random troop, Cersei killing herself or whatever else?

It would have, but the idea was that Surrender means she can't simply due that without looking like a despot. Most likely Cersei would be put to trial, or potentially escape justice in some form by the time the army really seizes the city proper.

She just lost it because she ultimately failed at ending the war the way she wanted to in her mind. Its been an endless slog with little payout and no satisfaction. Her success feels entirely worthless and hollow. And everyone she came to 'save' is going to hate her for simply being a Targaryen, one that isn't even the proper heir to boot.

To put it in perspective, even if she got the throne, killed cersei the way she wanted to. The secret is out that Jon is the true heir; that means she will be contested the rest of her life without any means to back her claim to the throne. Marrying Jon would have solved this, but Jon no longer can love her in that capacity. Killing Jon is out of the question because then she becomes an usurper, and her rule is delegitimized completely.

So even by winning, shes lost. No amount of complacency will save her. No matter what she does, she has become the very thing she sought to destroy, a tyrant.

[Prokne]

I actually think this episode was the best out of the whole season. The way it started out I was a little worried that Tyrion and co. would totally mess up the siege and let Cersei get away, but when Dany destroyed all of the defenses with Drogon and blew the walls to let her soldiers in, it was over. The actions were believable even if they were not in character if you looked at the characters from a long time ago.

Dany has given up on being loved and welcomed as a benevolent ruler, and that is probably the second smartest thing she can do right now. The smartest thing would be to get the lords from the other kingdoms to follow her by promising them better lives and peace, but what she has learned from being in Westeros is that people will always scheme behind her back and try to take her out. Even her own advisors are doing it. No one was really afraid of her or respected her because all she basically did was lose (except that one time she burned a supply line). She needed to show the full power of a dragon and that she wasn't afraid to use it in order to cement her grip on the throne.

It might just be me, but it was also a little cathartic to see Dany finally burn down King's Landing after all of the failures they had trying to save the poor people that lived there. I think we're supposed to sympathize with them, but they are the same terrible people who cheered at Ned Stark's execution and became religious zealots. Some of them are probably good people, but as a mob in the capital city, they are pretty terrible.

A few things stand out for criticism. One is Jaime walking around for a half hour after being stabbed twice in the kidneys. He should have died right next to Euron. Another is Arya's imperviousness to flames. It also didn't quite make sense looking at some of the actions of the northerners. Jon Snow is their commander and they basically don't pay any attention to him. One guy even tried to kill him just to rape a woman. I get that the north doesn't like the south, but they should be doing what Jon tells them to do. Qyburn's zombiefying skills are pretty ridiculous too. Not quite sure what keeps the Mountain alive and able to function.

[Lothaeryn]

But Cersei didn't back down. The bells at the Red Keep never rung. They make a point of Daenerys seeing that those bells aren't ringing and then for some reason she decides to make civilian barbecue instead of flying straight to the keep to kill Cersei.

Cersei didn't back down, but the city did. I don't think Danaerys really knew the difference though.

[RobertoCarlos]

Dany did say a few seasons ago that people could choose to live in her new world or die in their old one.

Seems fair to me.

[Burning4]

It is almost like D&D didn't forget about it and that her arc (for a long while now) has been her becoming everything she claimed to oppose. This is perfectly in line with everything she is done in the past. She professed tolerance and benevolence, but her actions routinely illustrated the opposite. And they really started foreshadowing this hard last season.

[PACOX]

A better episode, not too many hot takes because it was very predictable. I just thought the invasion would initially fail this episode but conclude the next.

Jon is an idiot as always. It was good seeing his face when he realized that he helped the monster everyone warned him about.

I wish we say a bit more of Jamie's loyalty to Cersei. I never left her side but just wanted to see the Wights dead. I wanted Dany's coalition to see him with Cersei.

I expected Varys attempt to kill Dany to be a little better but I knew his days were numbered.

Euron's death was a Euron as you could get

The Hound was great this episode. I liked his farewell to Arya. His fight vs Darth Vader Gregor was cool. The battle seemed kind of pointless though since Cersei's reign was over at that point. All fanservice, I ain't mad.

How they went from being able to hit dragons with pinpoint precision to Drogon not getting a scratch is just something I had to not think about.

Where did they find Dothraki?

Why did Northerners participate in Dany's genocide?


Its going to be something talking to all the people who say Dany as a saint despite the foreshadowing of her going mad since day 1. A lot of people are going to swear it came out of nowhere even though Dany's own dialogue expressed how she felt. Westeros has no attachment to her but here is trying to conquer them. They dont know her and have no reason to follow her but fear of the dragons. No one in Westeros loves her and yet the only thing she wants in the world is to rule over them. Mad Dany makes 100% sense.

Cersei was a more benevolent ruler than Dany. Cersei was just extremely selfish.

[Tekkommo]

I enjoyed it, but a number of things were underwhelming.

Daenerys acted like she has just made a Skyrim save before killing everyone. Can't wait to see D&Ds explanation in the inside episode, "Dany kind of forgot she didn't want to be like her father".

[BarelyLegalBear]

Jon is an idiot as always. It was good seeing his face when he realized that he helped the monster everyone warned him about.

I know I said this once already, but let's be real for a second, if Jon would have gave her the dick and took one for the team, Dany wouldn't have killed everyone. Just think about it, she didn't want to be alone. She wanted to be loved. If only he would have fucking loved her as her and not a queen, this whole massacre could have been avoided.

[Wikko]

This season has just felt extremely rushed to me. All those previous seasons coming to an end in basically 1-2 episodes, and even then in a way that none of the previous season really even matter. Meh

[Cannibalus]

I really REALLY really hope that in the last episode we see a new NK finishing off people in King's Landing, after they kill each-other, thus fullfiling the dream Dany had with the keep destroyed and snow falling. Atleast that lol.

[Super Kami Dende]

you cant be a tyrant when everyone is dead

[Prokne]

1. Drogon wrapped in the plot armor.

I guess Daenerys smartened up and put some of that plot armor on her last dragon before the battle. It was so bad I actually laughed. I mean - you say that a couple of ships were able to easily take down Rheagal flying high in the air and basically force Daenerys to retreat on Drogon, but now Danny just swooped in and destroyed the whole Iron Fleet and the city walls armed to the teeth with scorpions without any issues despite flying super close to them? What the actual fuck?

4. The elephant in the room - the city surrenders.

Let's recap - Daenerys used Drogon (now with +10 to Evasion plot armor) to rotflstomp the Iron Fleet and the city walls. The LOL Company and the Lannister troops were slaugthered, the walls breached... All of that in like what - 5 minutes? We saw clearly that Jon's army was comfortably marching through the city, the remaining Lannister forces were surrendering en masse, the bells were rung to signal that the city defenders give up. Just before she snapped, Daenerys was already victorious. King's Landing was basically hers. All that was left was to accept the surrender, take prisoners and march to the Red Keep to seize Cersei.

Why would I have a problem with that? Well, ever since Daenerys landed in Westeros, we've been told that the only reason she doesn't just attack King's Landing is because she doesn't want to risk killing innocent civilians. Today we've seen that Daenerys was perfectly capable of achieving a complete victory and taking the city with minimal collateral damage. She didn't burn the city, she didn't murder innocent people - her victory was overall really clean, much cleaner in fact than most sieges and city assaults in history.

Now, if Daenerys was able to take the city without any effort and with minimal collateral damage now when her forces were depleted in the North, two of her Dragons were killed and the enemy had the time to build a ton of scorpions and hire a huge mercenary company - why couldn't she have done it earlier when her advantage over Cersei was even bigger?

Back then there wasn't even any need for a battle. Daenerys could have just taken Drogon into the harbor to burn the Iron Fleet and destroy the city walls on her way back. Heck, it would have been even easier, because there weren't nearly as many scorpions... After that, just ask Cersei to parlay, show her the wight and basically say this: "well, we have this to deal with in the North, so I'll make it quick - your city defenses are destroyed, your fleet is gone, I have a lot more troops and two dragons that you have no way to deal with - surrender the city now, commit your armies to our expedition north and I will let you live out the rest of your life in an exile; either that or we'll storm your defenseless city tomorrow and kill you".

I doubt Cersei would refuse, but even if she did, Danny could have just taken the dragons on a couple of rounds above the city and burn some of that desert that apparently is around King's Landing now for extra fear value, while Varys uses his spies to distribute a message to the Lannister soldiers and the people - "we're only after Cersei, surrender now and you will be shown mercy". I bet that a lot, if not most would surrender and the Unsullied could just march into the city and take it without any issues. Bonus points for securing the Lannister forces for the expedition north.

So why didn't Daenerys do it? Or more importantly, why didn't Tyrion advise her to try something like that instead of constantly stopping her from attacking King's Landing? He's supposed to be smart. I mean, he was smart, because last season the writers have purposefully made him a total idiot that's only capable of giving bad advice that does nothing, but harm her queen, so that the instead of having a story that actually makes sense, the show could end with a surprise twist where it's Cersei, not the Night King, who is the final "villain". Sigh.

I see the situation somewhat differently. Yes, Dany should have flown directly to the Red Keep when she arrived in Westeros at the beginning of the previous season and burned it to the ground with Cersei inside. Seeing that she had dragons and what they could do, and what she was willing to do, no one would have fought against her. She could have been a benevolent ruler after that and be secure because everyone knows who's boss. But, that wouldn't have worked out for the plan the show runners had because it would have been to easy (as it should be because there really is nothing that can defend against 3 dragons in this universe). So they made Dany's advisors stupid to prolong the conflict with Cersei, and killed 2 dragons and half her army so that it seemed like Cersei had a chance.

Cersei never had a chance. Euron's fleet never should have had the capabilities it did and those scorpions would never have realistically threatened the dragons.

This episode was realistic in that way, and shows just how screwed everyone on the wrong side was.

6. The Ceiling Boss.

I went into this episode knowing that Cersei is going to die and thinking that the Night King dying to Arya's "Teleportation Strike" was the worst villain death D&D could muster, but man, was I wrong. My worst case scenario was that Arya will kill Cersei, but when I saw that the one who got to do the deed was the Ceiling Boss, I wish that it was Arya. Or anyone else. The Hound, Greyworm, Daenerys on the dragon, Jaimie... Not the f...ing ceiling. So disappointing.

This scene would have been better if there was a cut of Drogon burning the Red Keep just before the whole thing collapses on Cersei and Jaime. Of course the real problem with how this plays out is that Dany has no way of knowing whether Cersei survived or not. I guess if she had survived, what is she going to do? No way she could threaten Dany again. Would have been better for her to see Cersei in the tower right before Drogon breathes fire into it.

- - - Updated - - -

I know I said this once already, but let's be real for a second, if Jon would have gave her the dick and took one for the team, Dany wouldn't have killed everyone. Just think about it, she didn't want to be alone. She wanted to be loved. If only he would have fucking loved her as her and not a queen, this whole massacre could have been avoided.

Jon is the worst. He has learned nothing from Ned's death, his own, or any other time that honor has had bad consequences. Unfortunately he will probably be king.

[Mitters]

Qyburn died in the name of cleganebowl, the hype was too much.

[Sarethion]

Cersei never had a chance. Euron's fleet never should have had the capabilities it did and those scorpions would never have realistically threatened the dragons.

This episode was realistic in that way, and shows just how screwed everyone on the wrong side was.

I agree with this and that's why I think Cersei should have been dealt with in season 7 and season 8 as a whole should have focused on the White Walkers. Still, they've decided to go the other way and that's okay, but there were still things that could have been different and in my opinion better.

For instance, Rhaegal could have died fighting in this episode - it wouldn't make any major difference for the overall plot, if anything - seeing another dragon die would feed into Daenerys' going berserk on the city, but it would make more sense. After all - there's a greater chance that a dragon gets shot down while attacking a full fleet and the city walls than by flying over a couple of ships.

Or the Golden Company. They really could have put up more of a fight, for instance charge the northeners when Drogon started burning the walls. They've surely heard what was going on, so why not just attack? If they were engaged in a skirmish with Danny's forces, there would at least be some chance she doesn't burn them to avoid harming her own troops. But instead they just stood there and waited to die.

These are just some examples... The battle would have still been rather one-sided and the fact Daenerys didn't attack earlier would still be silly, but at least there would be some actual fighting in this episode.

Which brings us to the major issue with the series as a whole - i.e. how overpowered dragons are. As you've said, no mortal army could reasonably stand a chance against them, which is why I feel it would have been better if the real threat to Danny and her dragons was the Night King, not Cersei. It would just be more reasonable to expect that a supernatural being has some way of countering dragons.

This scene would have been better if there was a cut of Drogon burning the Red Keep just before the whole thing collapses on Cersei and Jaime. Of course the real problem with how this plays out is that Dany has no way of knowing whether Cersei survived or not. I guess if she had survived, what is she going to do? No way she could threaten Dany again. Would have been better for her to see Cersei in the tower right before Drogon breathes fire into it.

I absolutely agree with this. But then again, I feel pretty much anything would have been better than the ceiling boss. Daenerys flying up and incinerating Cersei, Greyworm jumping out of some dark corner to kill the woman that murdered his love... Anything, really.

That's not to say that I don't appreciate what they did - Cersei ultimately being killed by the Red Keep that she worked so hard to rule... It is kinda poetic, but it doesn't change the fact that I would much rather see some actual fanservice in this moment and have one of the characters get the final blow.

[Cizr]

I really REALLY really hope that in the last episode we see a new NK finishing off people in King's Landing, after they kill each-other, thus fullfiling the dream Dany had with the keep destroyed and snow falling. Atleast that lol.

Keep was destroyed and instead of snow it was ash falling.